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Peachy Posted on 17/09/2010 21:53
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

it amazes me and I really cannot fathom it.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 17/09/2010 22:09
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Insecurity isn't just for dummies.

Peachy Posted on 17/09/2010 22:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

there is wisdom in your reply cc

Bren_MFC Posted on 17/09/2010 22:19
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

what is the correlation between intelligence and believing in God???

peterkay Posted on 17/09/2010 22:56
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

its dead easy because its true only foolish people do not believe[^]

W_H_E_A_T_E_R Posted on 17/09/2010 22:57
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I think the same how can they not beleive in science?

cigarettes_and_alcohol Posted on 17/09/2010 23:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

faith, just like the blind faith we have that boro will smash every team we play. up to them who are we to judge what those religious freaks believ?

SKEELO Posted on 17/09/2010 23:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

F A I T H .

mooghead Posted on 17/09/2010 23:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

They are just hedging their bets. Can't argue with it really.

wiggler Posted on 17/09/2010 23:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Maybe its just that believing in something is better than believing in nothing

expat_smoggie Posted on 18/09/2010 00:25
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

it's more or less the same as believing that men actually landed on the moon.

ItsMe Posted on 18/09/2010 00:40
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Brewery's should make a beer/lager called God [:D]

degsyspesh Posted on 18/09/2010 01:49
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Quite easy really.

Our world, the universe and life in general is completely beyond the comprehension of the human brain. Intelligent people recognise that there is no logical answer to many of life's questions and some put this down to God....

TurnbullsCans Posted on 18/09/2010 01:54
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Degsy, cracking answer!!! Have been smoking weed? [:D]

degsyspesh Posted on 18/09/2010 02:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

No, but I have been drinking a succession of quadrouple vodka's.

In some ways the effect is similar......

TurnbullsCans Posted on 18/09/2010 02:40
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

[^]

degsyspesh Posted on 18/09/2010 02:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

In many ways it would be far more legitimate to ask how some intelligent people don't believe in God.....

Without wishing to sound preachy, God (in whatever form you may believe in) is the intelligent answer to pretty much all of life's unanswerable questions......

ItsMe Posted on 18/09/2010 02:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

PREACHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TurnbullsCans Posted on 18/09/2010 03:02
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

degsy is in the zone.............[:D]

VonBrock Posted on 18/09/2010 03:20
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

its like father chrismas..your out of order tell the kids he dont exist

degsyspesh Posted on 18/09/2010 04:30
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

[:D][:D][:D]..........[xx(]

E-PRIME Posted on 18/09/2010 08:14
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I think intelligent people would realise that there are more causal connections between meanings and events than can be described by current scientific models.

To put the synchronistic and freaky coincidental events described above under the category of God, or having any model that requires faith to make it work is to give up the search for knowledge prematurely.

An observant agnostic would therefore assume that everything is connected somehow, everything matters somehow and that there is something about the nature of things or the nature of the mind that gives rise to a set or sets of phenomena.

The agnostic would therefore not rule out the possibilty of God, they would probably think the word required a more accurate specific definition than the models delivered by most major organised religion though. I for one would be happy with the concept of God if it was defined as an underlying order in the universe that from a certain perpective could have properties which appear to the human mind as having an intelligence.

I'm really still half asleep so hope that made sense to someone other than me.

The_263 Posted on 18/09/2010 08:28
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Church-goers have a variety of agendas. CTC has hit one of the nails on to the head. You normally find that anyone who is an anal-retentive born again Christian church goer has some abnormal pyscological issue or personality disorder, normally its insecurity. At work these people are the most nasty, greedy, selfish people and over ambitious in a business organisation - in other words exhibit no evidence of the values that the church preaches. In the sporting world, one word backs up my argument: Glenn Hoddle. The church is the source of the paper used to cover their personality cracks!

Other churchgoers do it as a means of communicating to lost and loved ones. No problem with that!

sixtyniner69 Posted on 18/09/2010 08:36
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

can you work out what was there before the big bang[rle]

i still have the problem of what was there before god[rle]

very similar questions and is matter itself god, whom therefore created matter in his own image [;)]

littlejimmy Posted on 18/09/2010 10:34
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

That makes a lot of sense, E-Prime. I think a lot of people who get labelled/call themselves atheists are really agnostics with 1% doubt, myself included...even Dawkins says he can't be absolutely certain that there is no God.

Diasboro_Dan Posted on 18/09/2010 10:36
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

You believe in football? God should be easy.

foggysfplandiet Posted on 18/09/2010 10:46
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

It's nothing to do with sensible logic; just a matter of having faith when the facts and the logic tell you that it's absurd to believe.

Bit like believing in Boro I suppose.

Bren_MFC Posted on 19/09/2010 20:27
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

yep............just because you can't get your head round something doesn't mean it doesn't exist........scientists are always looking for facts......don't they realise how small the human mind is????

number9 Posted on 19/09/2010 21:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Yawn

two_banks_of_four Posted on 19/09/2010 21:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"I for one would be happy with the concept of God if it was defined as an underlying order in the universe"

Sounds like pantheism to me, which is has been around since the ancient Greeks.

boro74 Posted on 19/09/2010 21:32
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

In actual fact, we don't exsist at all. We are figments of our own imagination.

HolgateCorner Posted on 19/09/2010 22:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

science is logical, faith is not.

there is no explanation as to why people have faith and there doesn't need to be one.

Why does a caterpillar turn into a butterfly?

Science will explain the process but not the reason.


two_banks_of_four Posted on 19/09/2010 22:15
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

existence precedes essence [sad]

Zelig2 Posted on 20/09/2010 06:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Maybe the question should be "How can intelligent people believe in organised religion"?

Organised religions are just a way for one group of people to manipulate another group of people & it has created more problems on this planet than it has ever solved.

If a superior being created the universe then clearly he/she/it is neither good or evil judging by the neutral nature of the universe & as such doesn't want or deserve our worship.

bear66 Posted on 20/09/2010 07:38
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

He only reveals Himself to sensible people, "The fool says in his heart : " There is no God"". Psalm 14 verse 1

Zelig2 Posted on 20/09/2010 08:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Thou shalt not kill" (unless it suits our needs) [:P]

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 08:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"The fool says in his heart : " There is no God"". Psalm 14 verse 1

May I retort with.......

"Imagine there's no Heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people, Living for today" -- Lennon, Track 1, Verse 1

dreamdealer Posted on 20/09/2010 09:03
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Me. Agnostic.

I would however like to point out when people quote passages from the Bible as being proof that God exists that they are missing the point of the debate somewhat.

Only believers believe in the Bible and its teachings.

And that's gospel. [;)]

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 09:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

'They are just hedging their bets. Can't argue with it really.'

That is simply not logical.

raglasher Posted on 20/09/2010 09:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Zelig2 I agree with a lot of what you say,
Organized religion has nothing to do with God it is man made for the good of a few. How can a Pope make somebody a Saint it is a joke beyond belief. I believe there is a God figure
but i dont think it is compulsary to do so, it is your personal opinion. You must realize that man does the evil in this world, you have a choice to do good or evil. The bible forget it it is written by MAN and has been messed about with through the centuries.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 09:09
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

raglasher

Do you not find being an agnostic a bit pathetic?

dreamdealer Posted on 20/09/2010 09:34
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

HYPOCRISY.

I brought the wise men to my eyes
And read their words that I may see
Through faith and fear and outright lies
And God retained his mystery.

In life's long din I held my say
For fear I missed the savant's call
To glean his mind and find the way
To seek the truth that answers all

I looked, and longed that I may find
The lighted path that sets one free
But checked these chains for love so blind
Could shed no balming light on me.

Deliverance was not my gain
If indeed there's such a thing
But pious paragons I disdain
Who speak His word but loose their sting

And as I rest, my days but gone
Still pondering what life's about
I wonder at these jewels that shone
And spoke so sure through devilled doubt.

Gene_Vincent Posted on 20/09/2010 09:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Its surely a lot easier to believe in god, than to believe that the entire world, universe, galaxy and so on all just happened by accident, and that there is no purpose to it all.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 09:44
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Yes, living in complete ignorance is the easy answer.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 09:44
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Why does there have to be a purpose? Take evolution for example, there is no purpose, it just happens.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 09:47
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

It's very hard to imagine the size of the universe, we humans don't really have the capacity to grasp it, that's why we have gods, it's the easy, non-thinking way of accepting it.

MarlonD Posted on 20/09/2010 09:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

The Pope's gone home now you know ??

dreamdealer Posted on 20/09/2010 09:57
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Who?

MarlonD Posted on 20/09/2010 09:59
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

That bloke who whipped all the know-it-alls into a frenzy last week.

motherofallcomebaks Posted on 20/09/2010 09:59
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

even if it aint true. There is a hell a lot of good that spreads from the church people helping people in africa iraq afghanistian ie christian aid. They are also in palestine helping peole. All we hear from the news is bad things which is a few old priests who may or may not have committed a sin aginst boys nothing about all the good these aid groups do. People who go to church live a lot longer & are more healthy than faithless people also. Believe in Jesus.

littlejimmy Posted on 20/09/2010 10:08
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I saw them, Marlon. They really got into a frenzy as the Popemobile went past...[;)]

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 10:41
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

After spending decades studying the universe and life in it, British scientist Sir Fred Hoyle commented:

“Rather than accept the fantastically small probability of life having arisen through the blind forces of nature, it seemed better to suppose that the origin of life was a deliberate intellectual act.”

“When I discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the mystery of life, and say to myself, ‘Wow, only God knew before.’ It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me.”: Francis Collins - molecular biologist who helped map the genome

“There is no doubt that many scientists are . . . scornful of the notion that there might exist a God, or even an impersonal creative principle.” He added: “Personally I do not share their scorn. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, . . . an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama.”: Paul Davis Physicist

Professor of biochemistry Michael Behe, who has spent most of his life studying the complex internal functions of living cells, explained that those who teach the evolution of cell structure have no basis for their claims. Could evolution occur at this tiny, molecular level? “Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority,” he wrote. “There is no publication in the scientific literature—in prestigious journals, specialty journals, or books—that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred. The assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster.”

“I find it quite improbable that such order [in the universe] came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” : Allan Sandage - Astronomer




Easily apparently!

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 10:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"There is a hell a lot of good that spreads from the church people helping people in africa"
I'm sure the families of the people who died from AIDS would disagree.

"iraq afghanistian ie christian aid."
...and what about those christians that attacked the country and killed people?

"They are also in palestine helping peole."
The perfect location to shows the evils of religion.

"People who go to church live a lot longer & are more healthy than faithless people also."
What a load of bollox, prove it!

Lefty Posted on 20/09/2010 11:11
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

E-prime [^]

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 11:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I think you are confusing religion and belief in God, two very distinct entities. In my opinion Evolution and it's promoters are as much a religion as it fits with the words meaning and they have many adherents and proselytisers. In fact they have even been on crusades to wipe out opposer, yep sounds like an organised religion to me.


Religion:
"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs"

raglasher Posted on 20/09/2010 11:15
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Dibzz I am not an agnostic i am a Spiritualist totally different

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 11:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"In my opinion Evolution and it's promoters are as much a religion"

Science is not a religion. I noticed you picked the dictionary.com description that best suits your agenda. What about the other definition :

"a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects"
Evolutionary science is NOT fundamental.

"ritual observance of faith" - Again science isn't a faith. Evidence is observed, theories defined. Tests built to prove or disprove. FAITH doesn't come into it and is a fundamental defining factor of religion.

darko_pancev Posted on 20/09/2010 11:27
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

yawn[|)]

LeitrimBoro Posted on 20/09/2010 11:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

YYYYAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNNN.

btw..went to mass yesterday.
My choice.
Do what ye want.
Not my concern or OBSESSION.

jiffy Posted on 20/09/2010 12:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I am approaching 57 years of age and I have yet to find any evidence of such a thing as an intelligent life form.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 13:21
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Grasping at straws boromart and by the way i don't recall saying

"Science is not a religion". I called the belief in evolution camparable to religion never once mentioned science. I chose the definition that fits? Is that wrong?

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 20/09/2010 13:27
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

The Buddha said, don't blindly believe what I say, go and try it out for yourself.No one can prove there is a Creator, but equally no one can prove there isn't. Thus we should keep an open mind. The same goes for UFOs.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 13:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

The buddha told everyone to think for themselves? Erm... thanks buddha!

You can't prove the absence of something when there has been no evidence ever found for its possible existence.

bear66 Posted on 20/09/2010 13:37
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Imagine there's no Heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people, Living for today" -- Lennon, Track 1, Verse 1"

There's imagination and reality . . . . . as the rest of the song proves . . . .

dreamdealer Posted on 20/09/2010 13:39
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

One true God?

I can't believe it's not Buddha. [;)]

squarewheelbike Posted on 20/09/2010 13:44
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I came to the conclusion that God was like a year round Father Xmas, when I was about 7. This combined with the regular beatings I took from teachers at school, made me realise the whole thing was pretty much bullying on a mass scale. Approaching 50 now and not seen much to change my mind.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 13:46
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"I called the belief in evolution camparable to religion never once mentioned science."
The belief in evolution vs creationism IS the belief in Science over Faith. So by proxy, that is exactly what you said.

"I chose the definition that fits? Is that wrong?" In this case yes. Religion is related to the supernatural and faith, science is absolutely routed in evidence and the natural, the exact opposite. It cannot be considered a religion in the traditional sense.

If however you are using religion as a metaphor for passion then fine, but that isn't the historical meaning of religion and is a misuse of the term. This blurring of terminology is one of those tricks by people of faith, to try and put science and faith on a par, they are not.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 13:49
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

“Manned space flight . . . has opened for us thus far only a tiny door for viewing the awesome reaches of space. Our outlook through this peephole at the vast mysteries of the universe only confirms our belief in its creator.” - Dr. Wernher von Braun in awe of the laws governing the universe



Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 13:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"You can't prove the absence of something when there has been no evidence ever found for its possible existence."

Spot on. Surely the onus is on the religious folk to prove their theory. Something that despite a massive number of followers and a massive window of opportunity, they have failed to do.

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 20/09/2010 13:56
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I can understand agnosticism but not atheism. Until you have proof, it is foolish to completely rule something out. Why not have an open mind, what not you got lose?

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 13:58
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Spot on. Surely the onus is on the religious folk to prove their theory"

Why you are the one that wishes to "disprove" it also science has not (no matter how many times you may repeat something it will not make it true) by a universal long shot proven the theory of evolution (that everything we see, everthing we are made from etc etc) happened by pure chance.

Once it has proven it beyond complete and unassailable doubt then it will be true, until then it is unproven.

Heres another one for you..

“When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it.” - John Polkinghorne, formerly a physicist at Cambridge University

Professor Maciej Giertych, a noted geneticist from the Institute of Dendrology of the Polish Academy of Sciences on being interviewed said..

“We have become aware of the massive information contained in the genes. There is no known way to science how that information can arise spontaneously. It requires an intelligence; it cannot arise from chance events. Just mixing letters does not produce words.”

He goes on: “For example, the very complex DNA, RNA, protein replicating system in the cell must have been perfect from the very start. If not, life systems could not exist. The only logical explanation is that this vast quantity of information came from an intelligence.”

two_banks_of_four Posted on 20/09/2010 13:58
how can intelligent people believe in god ?


As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God. On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think that I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because, when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.
—Bertrand Russell

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 14:04
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Sydneysider, when there is massive amounts of evidence supporting one side and NONE supporting the other, you'd have to be a bit simple to treat them both as equally possible explanations.

"Why you are the one that wishes to "disprove" it also science has not (no matter how many times you may repeat something it will not make it true) by a universal long shot proven the theory of evolution (that everything we see, everthing we are made from etc etc) happened by pure chance."

You need to go and read some books because if you think evolution is 'things happening by pure chance' then you are seriously mistaken.

"Once it has proven it beyond complete and unassailable doubt then it will be true, until then it is unproven."

Is that how it has to be? It's 0% true until one final piece of the jigsaw slots in and it becomes 100% true?

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:04
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Agnostics are a cop out, regardless of the evidence on the table they neither refuse nor refute God. Fence sitters.

Atheists have the prerogative to change their minds when new EVIDENCE arrives. That is the scientific approach. Science is not a form of fundamentalism and atheists by nature tend to arrive at that viewpoint through following the scientific evidence.

Religion IS fundamentalist by nature. You can put all the evidence in front of folk who are normal and reasoned on every other topic, but if the evidence shows that God doesn't exist, they will dogmatically refute it.

Put it another way:-
Atheists - think
Agnostics - refuse to think and refuse to believe
Theists - refuse to think and just believe

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 14:09
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"if you think evolution is 'things happening by pure chance' "

Oh i get it now,,,, evolution has "evolved" to fit the theory. Sorry I was not awre that the goal posts had been moved, and as for reading books i have read many on the subject, me being a biologist and all.

And as for "Theists - refuse to think and just believe" what utter drivel a weak mind can spout, so Fred Hoyle one of the greatest minds of the 20th century refused to think did he?

After reading your posts boromart you come across as an uneducated blinkered fool.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:11
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

oooooo , unfortunately it's this kind of twisted logic that makes these archaic ritualistic religions survive [V]

The Bible is a man made construct, the Koran is a man made construct, zero evidence exists of God, therefore 'God' is a man made construct. That is the situation until otherwise disproven.

The concept that until we know everything then we actually know nothing is plainly stupid, we might as well all just give up on trying to learn anything! Which is what the organised religions want.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 14:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Here you go boromart another unthinking fool for you..

"As we develop all this information about the human genome, it will reveal the complexity, the interdependence of all this material. It will point to the origin as the result of an intelligent creator, an intelligent agent.”—Duane T. Gish, biochemist.

"We are confronted with formidable, even insuperable, difficulties in trying to account for the cell’s beginning and, for that matter, its continued functioning, unless we maintain with reason and logic that an intelligence, a mind, brought it into existence.” - biologist Russell Charles Artist


two_banks_of_four Posted on 20/09/2010 14:14
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; Christian or a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last, I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain "gnosis,"–had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble.
So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic." It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took.

Thomas Henry Huxley, who first coined the phrase agnostic.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 14:15
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, I'm sure you have read many books. You just didn't do it properly if you think evolution is things randomly happening. It's one of the most common mistakes people fall into when failing to interpret what evolution is. "Are you telling me an eyeball just suddenly appeared, through chance?" and so on.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:16
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

'Oh i get it now,,,, evolution has "evolved" to fit the theory.'

If you are a scientist I will eat my hat, you clearly don't even have the basic grasp of what a theory is. The aim is to prove them, or disprove them, and/or REFINE them. Any scientist knows that theories are and should be modified.


littlejimmy Posted on 20/09/2010 14:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Boromart, surely it's the atheists that don't think. They are the ones who are absolutely sure there is no God, whilst agnostics have an open mind and can consider new evidence.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 14:19
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"As we develop all this information about the human genome, it will reveal the complexity, the interdependence of all this material. It will point to the origin as the result of an intelligent creator, an intelligent agent.”—Duane T. Gish, biochemist.

****

A biochemist who ignores the evidence is not much better than someone else who ignores the evidence.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 14:21
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Evolution (the theory) cannot explain how the cell evolved it has no evidence that explains it. until it can do so it remains unproven as as a theory and no where near FACT the cell is the simplest (if you can call a cell simple that is) form of life.

To be honest i really do not care what you believe that is up to you, but do not expect people to not take exception when you state something as fact when it is far from such. that is being disingenuous.


Ok here is another one who ignores the evidence as you put it..

“One could perhaps describe the situation by saying that God is a mathematician of a very high order, and He used very advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

P.A.M. Dirac - professor of mathematics (and physicist) at the University of Cambridge


Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I think that's a common mistake Jimmy. I am atheist, there is no god....put some evidence on the table and I will analyse and conclude my new standing. You don't have to stay in one 'bucket' for life. At this point I am atheist.


Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:25
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"To be honest i really do not care what you believe that is up to you, but do not expect people to not take exception when you state something as fact when it is far from such. that is being disingenuous."

Like someone stating that God exists, which clearly isn't proven as a fact? Now that is disingenuous in the extreme.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 14:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Heres some homework for you boromart.

Troll through all the posts and find my post where i state that God exists.

Best of luck

two_banks_of_four Posted on 20/09/2010 14:28
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Bang on Jimmy to quote Russell again. I, in an unintentionally slightly haughty fashion, recomend that you all read 'What Is an agnostic' and 'Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic'. They are quite thought provoking and are written by one of the leading thinkers of the 20 century.

"An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists."

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:30
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, Dirac like Hawkins has often been misquoted regarding religion. They have both used the term God, not to discuss a supernatural being, but as a phrase to define the beauty of the laws of physics.

Here is another quote by Dirac :
I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions.......this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins."

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, I'm clearly getting under your skin. If you can' keep it civil then you shouldn't debate!

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:38
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

So ABCD nail your colours to the most God or no God?

"Duane T. Gish, biochemist" -- isn't that that mad californian psuedo-cult Christian guy that Dave Gorman met in his Googlewhack adventure? You are pulling some really ropey people out. I think biochemist is stretching it, he ran an outfit that promoted creationism and made a lot of money from it.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 14:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I am sure he has been miss-quoted as all us have.

I responded to this thread simply to point out that many, many "intelligent" people accept the possibility that God may or may not exist. To dismiss both sides of the argument based on unproven theories is fool hardy, of course the existence of God cannot be proven it is a matter of faith yet science cannot prove evolution beyond a shadow of doubt so to believe completely (dismissing all others out of hand) in evolution is just as big a leap of faith as believing in God is.

A I mentioned earlier I am biologist and I see zero evidence that the cell evolved, it's all well and dandy for Dawkins et al to go on about how BIG things evolved but they cannot (in fact they generally ignore it) explain how the simplest( and I use the term VERY loosely) form of life appeared. Now call me odd but I suggest that you start small and work up. After all you have to have a wheel before you can have a car.

"ABCD, I'm clearly getting under your skin. If you can' keep it civil then you shouldn't debate!"

In your dreams mate and i guess you failed in your homework, hopefully you have now read all of my posts.

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 14:49
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

WoW

This drivel still going on..[|)]

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 14:53
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

'People who go to church live a lot longer & are more healthy than faithless people also.'

lol, [:D][cr]

Cracked me up that one. [:D][^][:o)]

littlejimmy Posted on 20/09/2010 14:54
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"There is no God."

That's the utter and absolute certainty I was talking about. It's as absurd as being absolutely certain that there IS a god. I'm pretty sure there isn't, 99% sure, but am keeping that 1% doubt, and that covers the kinds of God possible in pantheism, deism, theism, monkeyjism and every other ism, thanks very much.

E-PRIME Posted on 20/09/2010 14:55
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Boromart - IMO you've got the wrong idea about agnosticysm.

A theist will believe in their religion regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

An atheist will not believe in any religion even when faced with evidence supporting said religion's truth.

An agnostic probably realises that proof is a relative term and that nothing can be said to 100% correct or true in an existential sense. It is the only sane point of view and certainly is not sitting on the fence. It is open minded curiosity. A curiosity which never ends regardless how much evidence is gathered. It is the only way of ensuring you don't throw down anchor at the first clue to the nature of reality thinking you've found a definitive answer.

All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

The agnostic acknowledges that everything depends on your point of view based on the beliefs you hold on the nature of reality. (not theological beliefs, more like the belief that when you open your front door your house is inside, that kind of thing).

Once you realise that all of your everyday perceptions are based on gamble, that the union of your nervous system and the universe creates it's own reality, unique to you, you wouldn't dream of presuming you had the definitve answer on a subject as ellusive as creation.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 14:58
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

number9, makes the day go quicker [;)]

"to believe completely in evolution is just as big a leap of faith as believing in God is." -- It is not as big a leap of faith there is corroboration evidence. Can you tell me why we have never found fossilised Rabbits or horses or other mammals from the jurassic period? Where did mammals come from?

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 15:00
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Dawkins Teapot:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 15:02
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

E-PRIME, you say "An atheist will not believe in any religion even when faced with evidence supporting said religion's truth. ". Two points :

1) That has never ever happened, so cannot be tested.
2) We are not labelled for life. Atheists almost exclusively reach that stance through viewing the available evidence. So new evidence would be reviewed and could change opinion (however unlikely). The difference between Agnostics and atheists is subtle, but ultimately boils down to be being prepared to reach a conclusion based on the current available evidence.

"An agnostic probably realises that proof is a relative term and that nothing can be said to 100% correct or true in an existential sense." - atheists know that too, so it becomes an 'in all probability' viewpoint. In all probability there is no god, as there is zero evidence of one. I'm not going to be a fairy-agnostic, I don't believe in them, even though I can't 100% disprove them.

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 15:05
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I think ABCD is making the point that if you cannot explain how the simple cell came into being trying to explain everything else is a waste of time.

Tis a bit like trying to build a house with bricks when you don't know how to make bricks i guess.

Me i believe in God (kind of a prerequisite for being a JW)

littlejimmy Posted on 20/09/2010 15:05
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

That was Bertrand Russell's analogy, actually Dibzz.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 15:12
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Yes I know, but recently brought to light by the brilliant Mr Dawkins.

It is a good argument though you must agree?

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 15:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, are you not going to answer that question? are you going to nail your colours to the mast regarding if God exists? Seems a bit odd that you are prepared to come on here and critiscise others but won't even say where you stand [rle]

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 15:15
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Dawkins for me is like ian Paisley both dangerous people that go out of there way to inflame.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 15:18
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

No, he's just putting his point of view across, I doubt he'd start blowing people up in the name of Atheism.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 15:21
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Why is it important that you know where I stand?

is it vital to debate that you know my position?

Have you never heard of a devils advocate?

I thought you were intelligent boromart, surely you can figure it out?

I lean toward the existence of God because no one (not even the ancient Greeks) has been able to disprove it, as for Dawkins tea pot.... ffs my 4yr old could do better. That said I suppose such simplistic reasoning would appeal to some.

As I said as a biologist I’m interested in the “little” stuff until that is explained and then proven I remain inclined toward a creator.

Happy now ans as Peachy now has his tonn i think I've had enough for today.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 15:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

No proof at all that there is a creator yet you remain inclined to think one exists despite the evidence supporting evolution?

Honestly, you must be one sh1t biologist.

What *exactly* do you do, as I suspect you have a XXXXXXing biology GCSE.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 15:25
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I work for 3M developing paint coatings at the molecular level, you know the kind of stuff that makes paint stick. really interesting.

"oooooo " pmsl from someone who admits to never having read the bible but discounts it out of hand.[rle] Now that’s REAL scientific process for you. Dismiss the evidence from the opposing point of view without reading it, real clever that one next time i need to see my boss about funding reckon i might try that one.

E-PRIME Posted on 20/09/2010 15:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I'm sure there has been an atheist with mental problems who has been faced with evidence of god in the form of voices in their head or whatever.

That's about the only circumstance where being an atheist is of potential use! you get yourself to the doctors rather than believe you have been chosen in some way.

I suppose my point is that both atheism and theism require an act of belief. The unshakable belief that there is no God and the unshakable belief that there is a God respectively.

I think that one of the human races best attributes is that of open minded curiosity, that of constantly striving for a better understanding of things and not that of thinking all facts about a topic can be known completely.

It's the agnostics that will temper the furor when it all kicks off between religions in the next 50 years or so. The reason being that atheists will have no problem dehumanising the foolish believers, and the believers will have no problem dehumanising the unholy infadels. The agnostic will not look down their noses at anyone and restore sanity to the world. Amen!

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 15:27
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

So all this talk of you being a biologist is a little disingenuous giving that you were hinting at you being some sort of expert on evolution.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 15:30
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"So all this talk of you being a biologist is a little disingenuous giving that you were hinting at you being some sort of expert on evolution."

What! bl00dy hell lad you really are a muppet, can you ACCTUALLY read or is a 2yr old doing this for you?

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 15:35
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Paisley never directly blew anyone up but his accolytes were certainly inspired to.

Dawkins deliberatley inflames people by his writings, for what reason i no not, but there are many nutters out there that will take the next step forward for what they percieve to be a good and just cause. human nature i'm afraid.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 15:37
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"I'm a biologist but..."

...and so on, ad infinitum.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 15:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

You like to put words into other peoples mouths then, guess you win all your debates that way?

Guess if it make you happy carry on lad carry on as it will give me something to chortle over during my coffee break.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 15:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

""oooooo " pmsl from someone who admits to never having read the bible but discounts it out of hand. Now that’s REAL scientific process for you. Dismiss the evidence from the opposing point of view without reading it, real clever that one next time i need to see my boss about funding reckon i might try that one."

I have read the bible before. Can't remember very much of it and I won't claim to be an expert on exactly what is said. We were forced to read it as kids. I seem to remember an absence of a references section.

Who's putting things into other people's mouths now?

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 15:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Dawkins is harmless, he's a humanist.

People get annoyed with him because they find it difficult to argue against him, not his fault, theirs.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 15:53
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Why is it important that you know where I stand? is it vital to debate that you know my position?"
I just wondered why you were avoiding nailing your colours to a mast. That wasn't you playing devil's advocate, it was you avoiding having to answer questions about your 'faith' as it is easy to belittle a belief system.

"I thought you were intelligent boromart, surely you can figure it out?"
I didn't claim to be intelligent, you have applied that label to me.

"I lean toward the existence of God because no one (not even the ancient Greeks) has been able to disprove it"
so by that same rationale you believe in the celestial teapot? Or do you believe in the pagan Gods, or the Greek Gods? Do you beleive in God an entity or as a coverall term for the beauty of physics?

"as for Dawkins tea pot.... ffs my 4yr old could do better. That said I suppose such simplistic reasoning would appeal to some." Well it's the same reasoning for your belief in a God, so clearly it appeals to you.

"someone who admits to never having read the bible but discounts it out of hand. Now that’s REAL scientific process for you. Dismiss the evidence from the opposing point of view without reading it"
The bible isn't evidence of a god, it's evidence that some people wrote a book. It doesn't contain ANYTHING which can corroborate the existence of a god.

By the way ABCD, this thread has proven one thing, you have an issue with people who have an opposing stance to you. You really get rattled at the silliest comments. Have a cuppa from the Celestial Teapot and chillax. It's only a debate.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 15:58
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

'Have a cuppa from the Celestial Teapot and chillax'

pmsl [:D][cr]

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:05
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"ooooooo"

Tut tut you tell porkies

"No, I have not read the bible. Good guess. Where does it say that God made men from animals? Because that what evolution proves."

I have a good memory of stuff i read. Naughty boy guess your cred is all gone now.


Link: ooooos porky

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"I didn't claim to be intelligent, you have applied that label to me."

Well aint i nice[:D]

littlejimmy Posted on 20/09/2010 16:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Boromart batters people into submission by going on and on and on and on...it's almost admirable. [;)]

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 16:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, which god do you believe in?

Jimmy, I enjoy the challenge and to be fair it's been at least a year since I've had a good old spamfest on here [:D]

two_banks_of_four Posted on 20/09/2010 16:12
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"But if the mere fact that I can produce from my thought the idea of something that entails everything which I clearly and distinctly perceive to belong to that thing really does belong to it, is not this a possible basis for another argument to prove the existence of God? Certainly, the idea of God, or a supremely perfect being, is one that I find within me just as surely as the idea of any shape or number. And my understanding that it belongs to his nature that he always exists is no less clear and distinct than is the case when I prove of any shape or number that some property belongs to its nature"

Rene Descartes

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Not sure.

I just enjoy the debate (and like to take the opposing side as I have a cantankerous nature) especially on slow days at work.

But i can assure you that I really don't care what people believe and you have a rather inflated view of your ability to get under my skin, Sorry old bean, just like the debate especially when the "Wiki" brigade joins in.


oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 16:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

You guessed that I had not read the bible on the other thread, was I supposed to say "ha! yeah, but there you're wrong" and make out I was some sort of expert when my only exposure was as a small child?

"I have read the bible before. Can't remember very much of it and I won't claim to be an expert on exactly what is said. We were forced to read it as kids. *****I seem to remember an absence of a references section.*****"

The important point remains marked out above.

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:20
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Yeh right as a child you read all 66 books (or 1600 odd pages) of it at Sunday School.[rle]

i may be stupid but certainly not gullable.

tinnedtuna Posted on 20/09/2010 16:22
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

allah is the only god...
"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."


number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 16:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

oooooo

Got caught with yer knickers down there old son, banged to rights and wot not by ABCD. oh most bibles do contain cross references and historical notes. Now if you had read it you'd know that.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 16:24
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Are you daft? I didn't claim to have read it all. That was the suggestion you made in the other thread supposedly making out that unless you have read and memorised every single page then you might have missed some hidden gem in indisputable logic.

That is the entire point I am making, how are you missing this? I don't claim to have any knowledge of the exact contents of the bible but you don't need to. Intimate knowledge of a work of fiction with no references or sources is worthless.

"Got caught with yer knickers down there old son, banged to rights and wot not by ABCD. oh most bibles do contain cross references and historical notes. Now if you had read it you'd know that."

So should I have claimed intimate knowledge of the entire bible on the other thread despite my only exposure to it being as a child?

"oh most bibles do contain cross references and historical notes"

A few background facts such as king names aren't really going to cut it. I'm talking about real evidence, *sources*.

You're an idiot if you use the bible like a textbook.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 16:24
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, your not sure which God you believe in?

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 16:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

oooooo

"
A few background facts such as king names aren't really going to cut it."

Keep trying sonny your ignorance shows through with every reply[:D]

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:37
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

You want my inside leg measurement as well?

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 16:41
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I suggest you drop the 'psuedo-patronising' 'sonny' comments and tell me where there is a claim in the bible that is backed up by a verifiable source with evidence that can be tested.

And I'm specifically talking about things relating to 'proof' that there is a God.

Honestly, a JW calling someone ignorant, ffs. Or maybe you follow the non-bigoted version?

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 16:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

OK sonny boy (is that better?)

let me bring this down to your level...

Sticks and stones may break my bones but calling will never hurt me[:P]

About the right tone for you i reckon, banged to rights old son banged to rights.

Porky oooooo has a nice ring to it. ho Ho

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 16:45
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

If god invented everything, why would he make an insect that lays eggs inside another larger insect that's then devoured form the inside out when the eggs hatch?

Making the host insects short life utterly miserable.

He's a bit fcuked up isn't he?

ABCD Posted on 20/09/2010 16:47
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

How's that relevant to the original question?

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 16:47
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Feel free to read my last post directed at you which you have failed to answer. Sticks and stones? You belong to an organisation that believes that gay people are evil. That's pretty bigoted.

number9 Posted on 20/09/2010 16:49
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"You belong to an organisation that believes that gay people are evil."

Is that right? Well i guess you'd know having read the bible from cover to cover before you could p!ss standing up.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 16:55
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I've read the bible from cover to cover? What are you on about now?

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 16:55
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"You want my inside leg measurement as well?"

I really do wonder why your so defensive when asked to clarify your viewpoint. You clearly aren't as sure of yourself as you like to make out [;)]

StevieT Posted on 20/09/2010 17:07
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

A good couple of minutes read by By R. Elisabeth Cornwell, PHD, J. Anderson Thomson, MD.


Link: The Evolution of Religion

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 17:25
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I started to read the bible but I gave up as I knew what happened at the end.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 20/09/2010 17:32
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

A good read, StevieT, thank you.

north_east_invader Posted on 20/09/2010 19:32
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

" yet science cannot prove evolution beyond a shadow of doubt"

Err, yes, yes it can.

Dibzzz Posted on 20/09/2010 19:35
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

It is regarded as a fact now, it's all in the genes.

Darwin couldn't prove it beyond doubt as all he had was fossil records, he would have loved genetics.

It's just the stubborn creationists who can't/won't accept it.

Rodders_T Posted on 20/09/2010 19:39
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"how can intelligent people believe in god ?"

Are you saying all Muslims are unintelligent? Bit racist that like

ZippytheHippy Posted on 20/09/2010 20:18
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Well i guess from reading this topic that neither Evolutionists nor people who believe in God (not necessary illy creationists by the way) can prove they are right.

Evolution is not proven (and i subscribe to that explanation) so it is wrong to insist it has been proven beyond doubt. As for Darwin well he would be embarrassed to see that genetics has dis-proven his "tree of life" theory so comprehensively.

All that said what a pointless thread.

Mind you i'd be interested in ABCD inside leg measurement [:P]

As for oooooo, give it up lad you were caught out in your previous post and the more you try to “explain” it the sillier you appear.

Anubis Posted on 20/09/2010 20:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I've just made a 147. Where's my 4 grand ?

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 20:34
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

This has been a very narrow thread in lots of ways but I suppose that highlights the scientists problem.

Science can only try to provide theories about evolution, creation of the universe and the life on this planet.

God and religion is about approach to life, understanding, conscience, interaction, caring, appreciating, abstention, fellowship, moral codes etc etc.

There is no comparison between the two, science is simply a sub-division of religion.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 20/09/2010 20:42
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

An opinion of someone who's a believer there HC it seems [rle]

These science vs religion threads always creat some heated debate, and there is always some pretty obvious inaccuracies from both camps.

I dont have an issue with those who have faith, but as someone sho doesn't I do take issue with concept that God is a proven fact. Each to their own, but some dont seem to hold the same tolerant view.

FC_Twente_Bensons Posted on 20/09/2010 20:47
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

same old story, slag religion off, get over 100 posts, make you feel popular, go home and have a wnak about it, done.

shape up mate these posts are getting old now like [V]

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 21:05
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"science is simply a sub-division of religion" [|)]

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 21:09
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Jonny - I posted not from the point of view of being a believer or non-believer, I think that is a private matter for everybody.

I just don't think religion is about being in opposition to science, it's about completely different things, only one of which is creation, evolution and all that goes with it.

To put it in th eterms some of our younger posters will understand its like selecting one Sky channel from the entire TV menu.

FC Twente - this thread may not suit everybody but it's your own choice to read it or not and as always there are some repeated comments we've all seen before but also some new viewpoints which are interesting to read.

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 21:11
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"As for Darwin well he would be embarrassed to see that genetics has dis-proven his "tree of life" theory so comprehensively."

Have you got any links that absolutely disprove "tree of life theory"? Preferably ones that are from scientists that haven't been sponsored by some religion! i.e. trustworthy sources.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 21:15
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Luckily, the entire proof of the existence of a God relied on two posts where I said I didn't know what was in the bible. Nailed on ffs.


HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 21:16
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Have you got any links that absolutely disprove "tree of life theory"? Preferably ones that are from scientists that haven't been sponsored by some religion! i.e. trustworthy sources.

It's all irrelevant anyway Boromart, what does it prove?

The old lady who goes to church on a sunday morning probably gets far more out of her faith than worrying about 'the tree of life theory'. That's not what God/religion is about.

OPEO Posted on 20/09/2010 21:21
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I believe in father christmas[:D] Prove to me he doesn't exist!

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 21:22
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

So God/religion is for those who are ignorant to reality? She probably isn't bothered, and I'm not bothered if she is or not. She is a tiny part though in the context of multi-billion pound religious industries.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 20/09/2010 21:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Science & religion can and should co-exist, despite the obvious contradictions, it just seems a bit irrelevant when people try to discredit one to strengthen the position of the other.

Zelig2 Posted on 20/09/2010 21:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

And God wept [|)]

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 21:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

totally agree with Jonny on that.

So what if the old lady is ignorant to reality, life is about coping with reality and if religion/God helps her to cope then what's wrong with that whether it is a divine force that is helping her or just positive thinking?

Boromart Posted on 20/09/2010 21:27
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"It's all irrelevant anyway Boromart, what does it prove?"
As a scientist the disproving of a theory is equally as important as proving one. If he has 'credible' and irrefutable information that breaks Darwins theories then lay it on the table. Fact is all the 'evidence' I have read is 'misconstrued' or exaggerated or simply bollox, designed to perpetuate the myth of creationism.

"The old lady who goes to church on a sunday morning probably gets far more out of her faith than worrying about 'the tree of life theory'."
I'm sorry, but expanding our learning is one of the greatest things we do, to claim Darwins theories are unimportant, whatever your theological bent is simply madness.

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 21:32
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Boromart - you have missed the point of what I was trying to say.

Religion/God spans a massive spectrum and involves all sorts of things of which the scientific proof or not proof of Darwin, creationism, big bang or whatever is just a very small part.

Most of religion is to do with a way of living your life rather than battling against scientific theories.

OPEO Posted on 20/09/2010 21:33
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Where would the pope and his mates get their income if ever god was disproved?

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 21:40
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Legal donations to challenge it?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 20/09/2010 22:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Its interesting that Darwin should be mentioned, given he was a devout christian during his younger years, only to struggle with his beliefs later in life as his scientific findings became more prevalent.

It was a source of much sadness in his life and one which he never fully came to terms with before his death.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 22:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Marie Curie's work brought her two Nobel prizes but ultimately she suffered too.

Darwin was stunned by what he found, but if he was a devout man and was so shaken by his findings, why does that in any way discredit what he found?

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/09/2010 22:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I don't think anybody has discredited what Darwin said have they?

He was obviously a man way ahead of his time.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 20/09/2010 22:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I dont think anyone's suggesting it did are they?

Darwins research and books were centuries ahead of their time and advanced science hugely.

He was a genious, thats for sure, but seemingly a tortured one.

oooooo Posted on 20/09/2010 22:19
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Sorry, you were talking about his inner turmoil and I thought you were suggesting that discredited him. Some people *have* used that against him in the context of the 'old lady' mentioned above in that it harmed him so what harm in not knowing?

ABCD Posted on 21/09/2010 08:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Well I have posted this before but I guess you failed to read it?

M S Gordon a Biologist who believes in evolution wrote in Biology & Philosophy – The Concept of Monophyly.

”Life appears to have had many origins. The base of the universal tree of life appears not to have a single root.”

He continues

“The traditional version of the theory of common descent apparently does not apply to kingdoms as presently recognised. It probably does not apply to many, if not all phyla and possibly also not to many classes within phyla.”

Evolutionary scientist Eric Bapeste writes in the New Scientist Jan 24th 2009 pg 34.

“We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.”

Evolutionary Biologist Michael Rose writes in the same article (pg 37/39)

“The tree of life is being politely buried we all know that. What is less accepted is is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change.”

The point they are making is that the “Tree of Life” theory (the mainstay of Darwin s Theory by the way) is not supported by the evidence. What do all three of these chappies have in common? They believe in Evolution.

As a side note when Darwin came up with his theory most of the vehement opposition came from fellow scientists, odd that?

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 09:39
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

There are some dissenting voices over Darwinism, but the theory has not been debunked by the evidence and the scientific community is still massively in support.

600 scientific supporters is a tiny percentage. A large number of those 600 are agnostic to Darwins concepts rather than dead against it.


Link: Dissent from Darwinism

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 09:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

..and here is why we should be sceptical of the sceptics!

The legitimising of "Creationist science" is very dangerous indeed. It's setting hurdles in the way of the advancement of our understanding of the world.


Link: NY Times

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 09:46
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

That link is run by the discovery institue, which is basically a pressure group for the teaching of Itelligent Design.

I'll wager the 600 'scientist' will have some intresting backgrounds.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 09:55
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Not sure which website you are culling these quotes from ABCD but they are doing you a dis-service.

For instance the M S Gordon paper you reference is actualy titled 'The Concept of Monophyly: A Speculative Essay'. I would read the paper but I can't find a free version, but would suggest a speculative essay is hardly likely to have caused many evolutionary biologists to convert to creationism.

Puling random quotes out of thin air neither makes you look clever or supports your case, whatever that is.

I would suggest that if you are looking for a debate on the finer points of evolutionary theory, which I doubt despite your apparent biological qualification you are in the wrong place.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 10:16
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I also don't really understand why any thread on religion degenerates into people trying to dissprove evoloution, as if this then makes the chances of a diety anymore likely. Even the Catholic Church has no problem with accepting evolution and it took them a few hundred years to accept an heliocentric solar system.

To answer the question if god does exist, and I am very much in the agnositc camp (as outlined above by B. Russell and not the nonsense written by other posters) he is likley to found somewhere beyond direct human experience and hence unprovable to science, talking not very clearly aboutthe different forms of knowledge....Kant explained it a lot better than that, but then he was more motivated than me. The christian existentialist (kiergaard (sic))offer a coherent explanation as well, just not one that convinces me. The answer therefore is that intelligent people can believe in god because it answers, what for them is an inherent question of the meaning of life.

Posters who insist that evolution is 100% fact are on very dodgy ground indeed, given the problem with inductive reasoning and the rest...........I very much doubt, in fact I am pretty sure that Dawkin wouldn't be as definite. Read some philosphy of science and look into epistemology, nothing is 100% certian.

littlejimmy Posted on 21/09/2010 10:19
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

2banks...[^]

ABCD Posted on 21/09/2010 10:24
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Actually I have read it, along with many other books/essays and articles on the subject including Darwins Origin which I doubt many who support evolution and pontificate on the subject on here can honestly admit to having done, but it seems that even by quoting and referencing scientists that actually SUPPORT evolution (i notice you ignored the new scientist article why?) but happen to disagree on some points is not enough to open some peoples minds that maybe just maybe the theory is flawed and not actually a proven fact.

Based on that assumption I can come only to the single conclusion that many who believe in evolution are not prepared to question why they believe it just as many who believe in God will not question why they believe in God. I find that odd considering that science is all about:

1. Observation and description.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests by several independent experimenters & properly performed experiments.
Don't you?

Where you see random chance I see order and discipline governed by set rules that do not change. Just because we cannot see something does not mean it does not exist. We cannot see or prove that cold exists all we feel is the effect of the absence of heat we cannot see gravity but are ruled by it all our lives. I have enjoyed this debate but as usual it turns out to be a pointless waste of time, more fool me for getting involved. I think I have challenged people to question why they believe in evolution (or maybe I have an overrated sense of my own intelligence & curiosity) and you never know one ore two may go out and find out exactly why they believe in it rather than just believe because R Dawkins says so after all (surprising though some may find it) he is not the only scientist in the world.

Those who have read my posts in full should have grasped that my objection is to people claiming that evolution is a 100% proven fact. I have not tried to "disprove" evolution but pointed out that many scientists are not comfortable with how the theory does not stand up to close scrutiny so hence it cannot be 100% fact.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 10:42
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"I think I have challenged people to question why they believe in evolution (or maybe I have an overrated sense of my own intelligence & curiosity) and you never know one ore two may go out and find out exactly why they believe"

Amen to that, some hope though [sad].

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 10:46
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I didn't mention the new scientist piece because it was written by a 'science' writer and was probably honed to be a bit controversial and on the fringes to sell a few more magazines. Oh and I haven't read it either that is all supersition. [smi]

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 10:59
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ABCD, I think the difference between theists and atheists is that atheists actually understand that nothing is 100% certain, theists 'just know' 100% that God exists.

Unless you actually observe then you cannot 100% prove evolution, and due to the extreme length of time needed then no one person will ever observe evolution.

God seemingly cannot be proven nor disproven, Somehow the Theists equate the lack of proof for God for with the lack of 'absolute' proof for evolution. But that is a simpistic black and white view and simply illogical. It's the teapot/spaghetti Monster argument. They are just as likely as any creationist 'theory'.

Regarding the athiest/agnostic/theist argument. I don't like this absolutism, only the Sith deal in absolutes! I like Dawkins concept that it's really a scale from 1 to 7 with a granularity across the whole scale. 1 would be theist - "God just is". 4 is Agnostic - I don't have enough information to make any conclusion. 7 is Atheist, "God doesn't exist". The vast majority of Atheists are a 6, a 'De facto atheist', i.e. the evidence available may not disprove God, but it also doesn't disprove pixies and fairies. The evidence is strongly in favour of evolution although we cannot say it is 100% correct. The lack of believe in the currently understood and widely accepted version of evolution would not in ANY way increase the likelihood of the 'theory' of creationism. The point is, no one can study any scientific evidence and come to the conclusion it must be created. The 'best' anyone can come up with is complete agnostiscism.

ABCD, Atheists do think, do research, they don't just accept what they are told...that is the domain of Theists and Creationsists who cannot possibly research because there is zero evidence.

There are unfortunately a lot of Theists whose 'science' cannot be trusted. Dr Gish who you mentioned earlier is a great example of this. Watch Dave Gorman's googlewhack adventure, Dave caught him misquoting the Laws of Thermo-dynamics, on purpose in an attempt to denounce evolution and promote creationism. The guy knew what he was doing....Dave was too smart for him though!

number9 Posted on 21/09/2010 11:02
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Had enough of this thread now i'm getting dizzy with the constant circling[;)]

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 11:06
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

number9, if this debate doesn't interest you, then why did you open it? and comment on it?

number9 Posted on 21/09/2010 11:13
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

stupidity[^]

littlejimmy Posted on 21/09/2010 11:16
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Waits for the "pearls before swine" crack.

number9 Posted on 21/09/2010 11:17
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

littlejimmy

How long can you hold your breath for?[;)]

littlejimmy Posted on 21/09/2010 11:21
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I'm evolved from a fish...ages. [^]

petedreadnought Posted on 21/09/2010 11:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

What is this God you believe in, number9?

littlejimmy Posted on 21/09/2010 11:26
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

You must not say his name or women wearing fake beards will throw stones at you.

Dibzzz Posted on 21/09/2010 13:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Christianity is only here by complete chance as Emperor Constantine embraced it as a control tool, the Romans had gods for eveything, Constantine saw the gap in the market and capitlised on it, why have all these gods when we can have one?

He brought it over here, slaughtered thousands over it and nipped Paganism in the bud.

A very clever bloke, amazing it's lasted nearly 2,000 years, I doubt it'll do another 2,000.

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 13:46
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

it'll be replaced by pastafarianism in the near future.

Dibzzz Posted on 21/09/2010 13:47
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

lol,

Just googled that, Flying Spaghetti Monster [:D]

north_east_invader Posted on 21/09/2010 13:50
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Those who have read my posts in full should have grasped that my objection is to people claiming that evolution is a 100% proven fact"

Then I'll do it again. The concept of Evolution is a 100% proven fact, it happened, is happening and will continue to happen. I have much more respect for religious believers that try and reconcile this fact with their faith (for example gods hand in directing evolution or something).

I still cannot fathom that we are in 2010 and are still having this discussion, and is the main reason why humanity will still continue to struggle as it battles with more superstitious clap trap rather than trying to work together for themselves, their family, friends and for the rest of the world.

I despair, I really, really do.

Dibzzz Posted on 21/09/2010 13:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

And C of E is only here as Henry the 8th wanted to divorce and marry again co's you couldn't as a Catholic.

How anyone can attach themselves to that is beyond me?

Zelig2 Posted on 21/09/2010 15:24
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

The fact that so many here are willing to openly question religion just shows how far we have come. Yes there is clearly further to go until everyone on the planet realises that religion was created by powerful people to subjugate the powerless & historically has done far more damage to the people of the world than good but at least no one has threatened to burn us at the stake because of our heresy & blasphemy on this thread so that's a start. It wasn't that long ago when any dissenting voice would of been silenced immediately by this 'compassionate' religion of yours [^]

ZippytheHippy Posted on 21/09/2010 16:50
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

WoW is this evolutionary XXXXXX (that would be w a nk) fest still going on!

I believe evolution is proberbly right but man has there been some shoite posted on here by them members of that particular faith.

As a point of note if it has been proven beyond a doubt (i must of missed that on the news like) can someone point to the new speices that has evolved as as far as i am aware evolution means genetic change or drift

"Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. "

Darwins finches are still finches and birds are still birds and I have yet to see a mouse turn into a bat like. So could someone please point out these new species for me, me being thick and all that.

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 17:09
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

spot on Zelig2, although if you were in America and you posted that from work they would probably sack you for being an Atheist and therefore a dangerous/evil person. [|)] long way to go.

I went out with this girl a few years back, Stacey, who lived in Frederick, Maryland. She had a daughter about 4 years old. Anyway can't remember why but Stacey told her daughter that I didn't believe in God. Her daughter replied "Is he the devil?".

She was about 4 or 5 years old, who puts this carp into their heads!!! Talk about indoctrinated. Then Stacey told her daughter "no he isn't the devil, they just don't teach about God where he grew up". Yes they do, I just chose NOT to believe it. Anyway I soon dumped that one.

There is a long way to go before Atheism is accepted [|)]

Zelig2 Posted on 21/09/2010 17:14
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

I would be happy to be burned at the stake for my beliefs (or maybe they could put me inside a man shaped effigy perhaps made of wicker) [:P]

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 21/09/2010 17:31
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

iam intelligent[8)]and i believe in the big fella,,trust me he is real[smi]

north_east_invader Posted on 21/09/2010 17:31
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Darwins finches are still finches and birds are still birds and I have yet to see a mouse turn into a bat like. So could someone please point out these new species for me, me being thick and all that."

If you are genuinely interested there is evidence upon evidence upon evidence upon evidence to demonstrate the evolutionary process beyond all reasonable doubt. There is mountains of it, fossil records, breeding experiments, dna analysis, it goes on, and on, and on.

Could there be a remote possibility that something we do not understand can influence evolution in a particular way ? sure, in fact its proven, we can do it - look at selective breeding programmes that have been going on by humans for a long time.

Someone will tell me the world is around 3-6000 years old next.

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 17:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"Darwins finches are still finches and birds are still birds and I have yet to see a mouse turn into a bat like. So could someone please point out these new species for me, me being thick and all that."

If we haven't found mammalian fossils from the jurassic period (which we haven't), then surely nearly all species of mammals are (relatively) new in comparison to other animal classes. There you go.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 21/09/2010 21:39
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

feck me your a fixated bunch of head cases on here, talk about having religion rammed down your throat! I feel like you are all suffering from God envy ffs get a life you boring bunch cnuts. Burning at the stake would be a blessed relief from you lot you make Billy graham look like mother T and a tele evangalist would hang his head in shame.

Talk about insecure in your beliefs.

number9 Posted on 21/09/2010 21:43
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

4 - 5 billion acctually

HolgateCorner Posted on 21/09/2010 22:39
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

'Then I'll do it again. The concept of Evolution is a 100% proven fact, it happened, is happening and will continue to happen. I have much more respect for religious believers that try and reconcile this fact with their faith (for example gods hand in directing evolution or something).

'I still cannot fathom that we are in 2010 and are still having this discussion, and is the main reason why humanity will still continue to struggle as it battles with more superstitious clap trap rather than trying to work together for themselves, their family, friends and for the rest of the world.

I despair, I really, really do.'

Very high and mighty, who do you think you are - God??

You would do well to remember the song-

There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more that I find out the less I know

two_banks_of_four Posted on 21/09/2010 22:54
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

When speaking here of Darwinism, I shall speak always of today's theory - that is Darwin's own theory of natural selection supported by the Mendelian theory of heredity, by the theory of the mutation and recombination of genes in a gene pool, and by the decoded genetic code. This is an immensely impressive and powerful theory. The claim that it completely explains evolution is of course a bold claim, and very far from being established. All scientific theories are conjectures, even those that have successfully passed many severe and varied tests.

Karl Popper

Boromart Posted on 21/09/2010 23:28
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ZippytheHippy, the definition of fixated would be someone who returns to a messageboard thread that he has already declared he is bored with!

Timboi Posted on 21/09/2010 23:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Rabid atheists are just as bad as religious nuts.

Believe whatever you want to - no-one actually knows the deal - but don't try to force your beliefs on anyone else.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 21/09/2010 23:58
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

[^]

north_east_invader Posted on 22/09/2010 08:45
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"who do you think you are - God??"

Not at al Holgate, just a person with his opinion, (although personally I think I'd do a pretty good job as the big guy, better than the one talked about in the bible by a long shot [;)]).

Incidentally for what its worth I believe in everyone's right to their own beliefs and opinions as much as my right to question or criticise them and as much as for others to criticise mine.

I am also very happy to be proven wrong in any of my beliefs, that is the way in which we learn, progress and develop. If anyone manages to do this, I will gladly recant.

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 08:48
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

If atheism offends you then clearly you should avoid a thread with this title! Similarly someone said Dawkins writing is written to inflame people. No it isn't, he states at the beginning of The God Dellusion that he believes that religion being a taboo is nonsense, the ultimate question of life should be open to scrutiny, so the book will approach it like any other subject....a clear message that religious fanaticists shouldn't read it. But they do, then they complain after [rle]

If the religious sect kept there opinions to themselves then fine, I will keep mine to myself. But they don't they indoctrinate children virtually from birth, they attempt to discredit real science with pseudo-science and mumbo-jumbo and unfortunately have people in high power who mix church and state. It's time for atheists to fight back [:D]

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 08:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

number9 - "4 - 5 billion acctually" - 4-5billion what?

north_east_invader Posted on 22/09/2010 08:55
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Well said Boromart.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 09:18
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Evolutionists are delusional

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 09:30
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

A very well reasoned argument, ZippytheHippy. You have convinced me [rle]

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 09:42
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Ha there you proved the point mate, now you go away and figure out which point it is.

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 11:00
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

ZippytheHippy you seem to have some anger issues, I don't think you should have 'Hippy' as part of your moniker. Although ZippytheCyberWarrior would sound a bit daft.

Zelig2 Posted on 22/09/2010 12:30
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Unlike the religious zealots who want to stop the development of science scientists don't want to prevent the development of religion. They leave that to the religious zealots. [:P]

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 12:51
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

OK the point you proved (so well and so quickly) is that when someone calls you delusional for believing in evolution you get all "defensive and upset" yet you feel that is is wrong for "religious" people to be offended when you freely call them deluded?

Tad hypocritical don't you think?

I have also noticed that you discount anyone else who's idea of evolution differs from your own, makes you rather opinionated and not open to reason i reckon.

As for anger issues? The day i get angry by the drivel espoused as fact on here is the day i know its time to catch the bus.

Best of luck with the next w@nkfest

Dibzzz Posted on 22/09/2010 12:52
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

By the way, in the vast majority of cases you follow the religion your parents do, so again, it's by complete chance that you're CofE, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim etc.

Then you are slowly brainwashed to accept that faith as a young child.

There's no such thing as a religious child, just religious parents.

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 13:01
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"OK the point you proved (so well and so quickly) is that when someone calls you delusional for believing in evolution you get all "defensive and upset""


Except that isn't what happened, you called me delusional (no skin of my nose). I then sarcastically questioned the fact that you hadn't backed it up with anything. That isn't being defensive, it was a challange. You had already decide you were going to prove what a smartarsh you are, but my answer didn't really fit with what you are trying to prove.

Anyway your daft comment wasn't in isolation,

- "All that said what a pointless thread."
- "As for oooooo....the sillier you appear."
- "WoW is this evolutionary XXXXXX (that would be w a nk) fest still going on!"
- "feck me your a fixated bunch of head cases on here"
- " ffs get a life you boring bunch cnuts."

All you have proven is your cantankerous and highly opinionated nature. Your so opinionated that you seem to think you have the right to tell other what they can and can't debate!

"you discount anyone else who's idea of evolution differs from your own, makes you rather opinionated and not open to reason i reckon."
In a debate I expect everyone to be opinionated, if your not there is no point debating. I have made my stance on it, I have also asked for creationists to give me some evidence that may make me change my mind...they haven't. I am far more open, and civil than you are, now is that your bus coming along?

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 13:32
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Again... you prove my point so quickly, if not elegantly.

opinionated
"–adjective
obstinate or conceited with regard to the merit of one's own opinions; conceitedly dogmatic."

- yep fits you like a glove, boring as well.

Opinion -
"a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. "

Did you spot the difference? People who engage in debate have and express an opinion, they are not opinionated. In fact you are as bad, if not worse, than the people you so quickly and freely dissmiss as delusional.

PS

You also fail to grasp that a person may believe in creation but not be a literal creationist (or someone who follows creation science), why is that? Perhaps it is a convenient label you like to attach to people who see things differently than you?

ABCD Posted on 22/09/2010 13:48
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Zippy

Well put and succinct

[:D]

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 13:57
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Symantics ZippytheHippy. I think you need to look in the mirror fella. I bet your not as opinionated about people, in the real world!

Like I said, I asked the creationists to show me evidence towards creationism. Nothing was put on the table for me to review and question my current beliefs. You will also note that not once have I said evolution is 100% correct. No theory can be proven to be 100% correct. Again, hardly opinionated.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 14:04
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Mate you called yourself opinionated (without obviously realising that it is not a good quality to poses).

Shows a distinct lack of understanding if you think the difference between having an opinion and being opinionated is symantics (or did you mean semantics?)

I'm just agreeing with your own opinion of yourself (see the irony).

When the time comes to burn the believers i imagine you'l be the one who provides the matches.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/09/2010 14:11
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

To be fair, Boromart makes a good point; why does ZippytheHippy (and I guess number9 too) keep coming back, not only read this thread, but post in it if they find the content so boring?

Dibzzz Posted on 22/09/2010 14:16
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

Because they're doyles?

ZippytheHippy Posted on 22/09/2010 14:23
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

My point is people like boromart, spout drivel and get all high and mighty when corrected but takes childish delight in correcting others, there’s a phrase for that type of intellect, puerile bullies.

They think that theirs is the only right way (much like those that they deride so frequently and freely on this board, Dibzz makes my point for me in such an eloquent way). They are blinkered bigots not open to any suggestion that they may be wrong and that the other person may actually be right. ABCD listed a number of quotes from people who believe in evolution that hold opposing views, yet these were dismissed out of hand.

In society, especially a secular one, that is dangerous.

After all this would be a boring thread(well even more so) if only those wishing to toss off to this particular w@ankfest were the only ones to post. Would that be a debate or just a group of children playing “mines bigger than yours”, decide for yourself.

That said, can't speak fo No.9, but I enjoy making people like boromart squirm.

Boromart Posted on 22/09/2010 14:38
how can intelligent people believe in god ?

"My point is people like boromart"
You do realise how pathetic you sound, don't you? You don't know me, so judging me on a couple of posts is a bit pathetic. Trying to 'categorise' me on a few posts shows you to be highly opinionated and obviously not quite as clever as you seem to think you are.

"ABCD listed a number of quotes from people who believe in evolution that hold opposing views, yet these were dismissed out of hand."
...and I simply put some context to those alleged learned people. That is what debate is about, challenging the evidence. Gish as one in particular I questioned. He tries to teach Creationism by drawing comic strip stories, staring.....himself. Except his character looks closer to Tom Cruise than Dr Gish. It is difficult to take the views of someone like him without a pinch of salt.

"That said, can't speak fo No.9, but I enjoy making people like boromart squirm."
There's a phrase for that type of intellect, puerile bully [;)]

Now grow up fella, I'm not sure what your problem is put you are displaying that you do have one.