permalink for this thread : http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/2128504
slovak Posted on 16/09/2010 20:55
The God Delusion

I've been meaning to buy it for ages, and now I have. Looking forward to reading the Dawkmeister's arguments [^]

beattsmjk Posted on 16/09/2010 21:25
The God Delusion

it was on telly the other week.

Good documentary but he gets some stick from the religious freaks who are so blinkered it makes me laugh.


susy Posted on 16/09/2010 21:30
The God Delusion

Loads of Doctors look at the human body and cant believe just how complicated it is and how the different systems work and think there must be a higher being that put this together.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 21:32
The God Delusion

Exactly Susy..If God made Mannion, Juninho,Pele,Maradonna, and Slaven he must be a Catholic.

addison-road Posted on 16/09/2010 21:34
The God Delusion

You must be on about the male brain Susy![8D]

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 21:34
The God Delusion

[:D]

slovak Posted on 16/09/2010 21:35
The God Delusion

[:D]

RandyGrandad Posted on 16/09/2010 21:43
The God Delusion

You can watch it here...


Link: Richarddawkinstastic

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 21:44
The God Delusion

Looks like he`s bewildered with beer there like.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 16/09/2010 21:47
The God Delusion

I thought it was a bit dull really.

Dibzzz Posted on 16/09/2010 21:48
The God Delusion

Get the book, it's a great read.[^]

Chuzzlewit Posted on 16/09/2010 21:53
The God Delusion

Slovak, I think you'll be disappointed. People like Dawkins and Hitchens go all around the houses to 'prove' the bleeding obvious and fail miserably to do so. All religious 'explanations' are simply primitive attempts to put things on some sort of rational basis.
If somebody came up to you in the pub and said that the sun was a god riding across the sky in a golden chariot (which some people did believe at one time) or that the earth was flat you'd,presumably tell them to go forth and multiply. They're just talking rubbish. No 'proof' is necessary.
By raising the whole question of religion to a 'higher' level such people as Dawkins and Hitchens are prolonging a pointless debate. It's over.

oooooo Posted on 16/09/2010 21:54
The God Delusion

"Loads of Doctors look at the human body and cant believe just how complicated it is and how the different systems work and think there must be a higher being that put this together."

They just need to dig out their textbooks on evolution then. My doctor gave me thrush cream for use on my face once. They aren't perfect.

I didn't finish the book. I always had my own ideas how evolution worked and how that explained the eye, social groups etc but reading it just articulated it so well.

I didn't finish it because I got to the point where I said, "yeah, I'm convinced". The other sections were on ideas I'd had no problems with before.

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 16/09/2010 21:54
The God Delusion

I'm agnostic, bordering atheist and I wasn't keen on the book.

His tone is so patronising and dismissive. Agree with the majority of his points but found the arrogance of the writing a bit waring.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 16/09/2010 21:57
The God Delusion

Yeah what chuzzlewit said is pretty accurate.


littlejimmy Posted on 16/09/2010 21:58
The God Delusion

Same here, SB. He gives it the big "I am" a little too much. Makes compelling points nonetheless.

MFCsouth Posted on 16/09/2010 21:59
The God Delusion

Chuzzlewit is absolutely right. You might as well throw the book away. In future theological pursuits seek fmttm users immediately or skip straight on to some sort of bloke in a pub analogy.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 16/09/2010 21:59
The God Delusion

'Loads of Doctors look at the human body and cant believe just how complicated it is and how the different systems work and think there must be a higher being that put this together.'

[:D]

What a crock of shyte.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 21:59
The God Delusion

He`s bound to he is the Pope of the atheists.

oooooo Posted on 16/09/2010 22:00
The God Delusion

In his defence, he never tells you that if you don't believe him, you'll burn for all eternity.

I like that in an author.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 16/09/2010 22:01
The God Delusion

Stabilo_Boss:
"I'm agnostic, bordering atheist and I wasn't keen on the book.

His tone is so patronising and dismissive. Agree with the majority of his points but found the arrogance of the writing a bit waring."



Agree pretty much 100% with this post.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:02
The God Delusion

No he says our legs will drop off in 3 generations.

oooooo Posted on 16/09/2010 22:05
The God Delusion

Yes it is dismissive but arrogant? I'm not that sure on the last one.

Organised religion doesn't exactly present its doctrine as a recommendation. "This is the word of God!"

That's not friendly advice, is it?

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:07
The God Delusion

He wrote what you wanted and your still not happy...blokes got to make a living.

littlejimmy Posted on 16/09/2010 22:13
The God Delusion

That's cos criticism (call it heresy if you like) is allowable to atheists.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:16
The God Delusion

He just sells stuff to his followers..they all make money.

Wonder when he realised how easy it was.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 16/09/2010 22:21
The God Delusion

There's one chapter about how hitler co-opted religions methods. The pope today was trying to pin hitler on the atheists. We all know he was blatantly a catholic. [:D]
Bit rich anyway considering he was considering making pious xiv or whatever number he was a level one saint.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:23
The God Delusion

Im not bothered about religion of any form.

oooooo Posted on 16/09/2010 22:25
The God Delusion

As a career evolutionary scientist, I don't think his motivation was to set out to make money. Most academics don't.

When you look at Dr Brian Cox you wonder how much he has personally made but then his entire record of work are available to read. He was writing papers on boring stuff for years before he started getting tv commissions but he still writes the papers.

View his Royal Instituition lectures given in 1991, he is lecturing to a young audience. When he talked to the religious science class in the TV programme, he was nothing but magnanimous.

He has certainly earned money since and has set up a foundation with a lot of it. He's a professor at Oxford so wouldn't have been short of a bob or two. And most people who have lived on a modest wage for years don't suddenly become a hedonist.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 16/09/2010 22:27
The God Delusion

'Im not bothered about religion of any form.'

Not even the Boro?

peterkay Posted on 16/09/2010 22:31
The God Delusion

Stick it in the bin and join me at church this Sunday[^]

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:34
The God Delusion

On one side the God squad sell you eternal life a few charms and a book or two.

Hawkins needs them as much..sells few lectures writes a few books, sell a few DVD`s, and you endorse him and take comfort from his academic standing..nothing a matter with that.

But both sides are looking for an understanding they can feel good with.


red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:35
The God Delusion

The Boro`s different CTC.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 16/09/2010 22:40
The God Delusion

Dawkins was minted long before the god delusion.

red_shamrock Posted on 16/09/2010 22:40
The God Delusion

He will be doing it for bugger all then.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 16/09/2010 22:41
The God Delusion

Without religion we wouldn't have heard of Dawkins, unless Plazmuh and his mates were filling us with as much shyte as we can handle since birth. Then another Hawking would be required.

We need dissention.

mooghead Posted on 16/09/2010 22:59
The God Delusion

Wasn't Dawkins brought up very religiously until he was old enough to realise what utter bull$hit it all was. Exactly like me, had R.E at school, read the bible when I left school with an adult mind and became an atheist.

Not interested in being a sheep...


susy Posted on 16/09/2010 23:06
The God Delusion

I think that Atheism is on the increase in this country because it is multicultural.

delu Posted on 16/09/2010 23:06
The God Delusion

The God Delusion was like coming up for air when I read it a few years ago, as has been the rise of some louder skepticism to try to combat a march to idiocracy (a rise in woo at a time of apathy in organised religion is sadly no coincidence).

But as for Dawkins's arrogance, how about that speech today where a foreigner we invited over took great pleasure in telling us how we should live our lives and how our government should be run so it benefits his unpleasant world-view - now that was arrogance. Would Mugabe or Ahmadinejad have the balls to do the same?

Believe what you want, but keep out of other people's lives, oh, and start paying taxes (post-dated to the enlightenment would be a nice gesture!).

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 16/09/2010 23:15
The God Delusion

Man is fallible...

OPEO Posted on 16/09/2010 23:15
The God Delusion

Gibson begat[smi] Lamb and creation began.

HolgateCorner Posted on 16/09/2010 23:20
The God Delusion

there is nothing written in the God Delusion that you won't have heard or read somewhere else already.

One of the most disappointing books I have ever read.

br14 Posted on 17/09/2010 03:22
The God Delusion

"By raising the whole question of religion to a 'higher' level such people as Dawkins and Hitchens are prolonging a pointless debate."

They're only doing it to sell books. Evolution is a cash cow and Dawkins is worth a fortune.

And in any case, they always more or less avoid the difficult question of existence.

"Mumble mumble amino acids, mumble mumble RNA...blah blah blah, and then the first living cell came to be".

The most important moment for living things in our known universe gets a handful of pages out of 3 or 4 hundred.

Ulitmately it's all speculation. Though I'm sure there are plenty who will argue eventually we'll prove it true. Might as well say eventually God will reveal himself. It's just as valid.

The answer is, there is no answer.

Timboi Posted on 17/09/2010 03:33
The God Delusion

Dawkins is as zealous and blinkered as the religious nuts he's triyng to debunk.

A closed mind is a closed mind regardless of your beliefs - if you're never willing to admit you might not be right then you're fooling yourself.

The only sensible position is agnosticism because you can't prove god doesn't exist and there's no proof he (she, it, them - whatever) does exist.

Funnily enough I saw the southpark Episode last night where Cartman freezes himself to wake-up in the futture and in the future there is no longer religion but aetheism factions trying to kill each other. Southpark has it's finger on the pulse......

Sleaford Posted on 17/09/2010 08:04
The God Delusion

One of my favourite episodes Timboi[^]. Whilst I can see what your saying, Dawkin does leave a little room to admit science is not 100% right he was in an Indy article yesterday saying....

"He was challenged on whether it had ever crossed his mind that he could be wrong. Scientists are always getting things wrong, he replied. Two centuries hence, scientific knowledge will tell us that much of what we think is right has been disproved.

But in the contest between evolution and creationism, he said, he thought it "highly unlikely" that the particular direction scientific progress will take "will just happen to be the beliefs of a tribe of Bronze Age goat herds".




Link: link to article

bororeddaz Posted on 17/09/2010 08:10
The God Delusion

"My doctor gave me thrush cream for use on my face once. They aren't perfect."

Maybe more perfect than for which you give him creditXXXXXXhead [:D]

number9 Posted on 17/09/2010 08:39
The God Delusion

Dawkins - evolutions version of Ian Paisley.

Both dangerous people.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/09/2010 08:42
The God Delusion

Apart from less than a decade ago he said there had to be a god.

The dislike of people of people who happen to believe is quite sad.

littlejimmy Posted on 17/09/2010 09:12
The God Delusion

Confusing Dawkins and Hawking, blot? You're also quoting him out of context, if that's the case.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 17/09/2010 10:20
The God Delusion

Science does not have a clue how the universe was created and never will, so it's possible that some higher being created the conditions necessary for evolution. I don't believe in the Biblical god though, bit too simplistic, I think it'll be far more complicated than that.

StevieT Posted on 17/09/2010 10:42
The God Delusion

Good book. [^]

Also recommend God Isn't Great (How Religion Poisons Everything) by Christopher Hitchens.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 17/09/2010 10:47
The God Delusion

"Science does not have a clue how the universe was created and never will"


That's quite a claim to make. Omniscient, are we?

MarlonD Posted on 17/09/2010 10:51
The God Delusion

Why do people who claim that all religion is stupid and their is no God as such, put an unbelievable amount of time and effort into arguing their case.

If you don't believe, fair enough but the way you forcibly push your non-believeing on others is rather hypocritical in the context of the argument.

red_shamrock Posted on 17/09/2010 10:53
The God Delusion

Star Trek is better than Songs of Praise imho.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/09/2010 10:54
The God Delusion

Hawkins is a God [:D]

SmogOnTheTrent Posted on 17/09/2010 10:57
The God Delusion

I see the god squad are on here trying to confuse the arguement with their bullshyte yet again.

Let's be clear, Dawkins is a scientist, his arguements are based on scientific understanding. Scientific, not some made up story. Not a work of fiction like every religious book ever written.

If you are such a weak minded individual that the reality of your own existence and most probably insignificance within the universe cannot be understood without the creation of some over watching farther figure then enjoy your intelectual immaturity.

The rise of atheism in this country and the developed world is because of the rise of intelligence and reasoned free thinking.

No longer are people shackeled by a judgemental religion. Humanity is growning up and no longer needs the comforting bedtime story that is religion.

One day in the future religion will be looked upon as an archaic idea, like the world being the centre of the universe or the earth being flat.

Jerry_Brown Posted on 17/09/2010 10:59
The God Delusion

"If you don't believe, fair enough but the way you forcibly push your non-believeing on others is rather hypocritical"

I'm a non believer, yet for years I was force fed religious dogma at school.

MarlonD Posted on 17/09/2010 11:00
The God Delusion

Jerry, thats my point.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 11:01
The God Delusion

susy, but doctors don't have the right knowledge/skills to make that call. They know how the body works and how to fix it when it doesn't. But have zero formal education in the origin of man.

The opinion of a NHS doctor carries less weight than Dawkins.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 11:11
The God Delusion

"Ulitmately it's all speculation. Though I'm sure there are plenty who will argue eventually we'll prove it true. Might as well say eventually God will reveal himself. It's just as valid."

It's not though is it! There is plenty of evidence to support the theories of evolutionists. There is zero evidence to support the creationist theory delivered by Christianity....and in fact, much evidence that contradicts that view.

craig-pancrack Posted on 17/09/2010 11:12
The God Delusion

The Pope cannot prove that god exists in the same way that Dawkins cannot disprove that god exists...but Dawkins is all about discovering the great mystery of what is out there whereas the Pope/Christianity/Islam/Judaism all cling n to their precious fairytale books and want to stop people thinking for themselves!!! Viva Dawkins!

Manfriday Posted on 17/09/2010 11:15
The God Delusion

After 2000 years the best the catholics can come up with for the creation of the universe is some bloke called God made it in seven days (no mention of where God came from mind). At least scientists are trying to work out how the big bang happened.

Lefty Posted on 17/09/2010 11:16
The God Delusion

'Southpark has it's finger on the pulse'

They do indeed.

The creators are both atheists, critical thinkers, supporters of science and fans of Richard Dawkins.


susy Posted on 17/09/2010 11:17
The God Delusion

I was just saying like!!!! JESUS! [rle]

JonMc Posted on 17/09/2010 11:23
The God Delusion

Until he decided to become the voice of atheism Dawkins was pretty much unknown outside of scientific circles. Since then he has enjoyed much fame and fortune and he looks like he lapps it up when on tour.

For such a committed atheist the man has made an absolute mint out of God whether real or imagined, more than all the religious people I know put together. Well done Dawkins for seeing a gap in the market and exploiting it to the full.

red_shamrock Posted on 17/09/2010 11:35
The God Delusion

Its all about nice things and promises,not all people practise their faith as they ask a lot and it doesn't always add up and there is always angle that's to tight.

I like to think Science can hold my interest ..however the the thoughts of absolutely bugger bloody all after you peg it is an awful thought and not very inspiring
although this may also be true.

But although I struggle with the concept of an afterlife.. with a God, St Peter etc I only want to get in to see me Mam and Dad and a few friends Ive lost along the way again.

Dawkins fails at that point and although it does sort of add up what he says..I would much rather have a word with me mam and dad than see the Universe in all its glory.

Religion is too divisive and It doesn't tick all the boxes.

I struggle to think these important people in your life just go into nothing such an awful way of feeling when its heart against head.

Jerry_Brown Posted on 17/09/2010 11:46
The God Delusion

I think some people need to look up the difference between atheism and secularism.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 17/09/2010 11:48
The God Delusion

existence precedes essence.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 17/09/2010 11:50
The God Delusion

Evolution is proven by science, there's no disputing that. However everything scientists have to work with is only a small piece of the vast puzzle that is the Universe. That's assuming the Universe is all there is, theries of multiverse, dark matter and limitless other dimensions have been touted around the more extreme elements of the science community. Sounds far fetched and no evidence to back any of it up yet but all science starts off as theory.

If it turns out there's a truth in any of these theories then it's possible that even if we discovered everything about our own surroundings we'd still be nowhere near getting our head's round the way it all started.

So to cut a very long story short. I believe the science of evolution and I also believe there's perhaps some form of higher intelligence behind it all, or at least I wouldn't dismiss it. Like I said though I don't think it's as simple some guy passing judgement on us all from his lofty throne.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 11:56
The God Delusion

"For such a committed atheist the man has made an absolute mint out of God whether real or imagined, more than all the religious people I know put together. Well done Dawkins for seeing a gap in the market and exploiting it to the full."
The Church of England is the biggest landowner in this country. The Catholic Church has an estimated wealth of $93 billion.

The entire wealth of the atheist/free-thinkers movements pales into insignificance compared to the religious crooks.

slovak Posted on 17/09/2010 12:04
The God Delusion

Very true [^]

two_banks_of_four Posted on 17/09/2010 12:20
The God Delusion

'The Church of England is the biggest landowner in this country'

Think you will find the Crown (and its corporeal embodiment, the Queen) is the biggest landholder in this country and indeed the world. The Crown technically owns all the land in this country and most of the commonwealth.

peterkay Posted on 17/09/2010 12:23
The God Delusion

richard dawkins [V] the church[^]

Lefty Posted on 17/09/2010 12:31
The God Delusion

'Think you will find the Crown (and its corporeal embodiment, the Queen) is the biggest landholder in this country and indeed the world. The Crown technically owns all the land in this country and most of the commonwealth.'

Thanks to Henry VIII disolving the monasteries and nicking all their land when he split with the Catholic church.

Kirkylane Posted on 17/09/2010 12:39
The God Delusion

Dawkins is no scientist. He's an embarrassment to science.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 12:46
The God Delusion

Is he? Because you say so?

JonMc Posted on 17/09/2010 13:58
The God Delusion

Never said that they didn't Mart but without God we wouldn't even have a thread about Dawkins today.

Jerry_Brown Posted on 17/09/2010 14:01
The God Delusion

I've had my beliefs long before Dawkins arrived on the scene.

ABCD Posted on 17/09/2010 14:42
The God Delusion

" Evolution is proven by science, there's no disputing that"

What a moronic statement to make ffs. NO it is not and there are many, many scientists who will disagree with dawkins as there are those that agree with him.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 14:47
The God Delusion

Evolution is fact. When you look at the DNA sequence of every living thing they actually all share some genes - IE everything is related.

That's proof.

Other facts - the world is not flat.

SplendidStuff Posted on 17/09/2010 14:50
The God Delusion

'What a moronic statement to make ffs. NO it is not and there are many, many scientists who will disagree with dawkins as there are those that agree with him.'


Where do people get this shyte from[rle]

Old_Gregg Posted on 17/09/2010 14:57
The God Delusion

"When you look at the DNA sequence of every living thing they actually all share some genes - IE everything is related"

Would this not also be the case if everything had been created by a single omnipotent being? Kind of like a signature [;)]

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 17/09/2010 15:38
The God Delusion

Did Dan Brown write it - or am I thinking of something different?

Steer Posted on 17/09/2010 15:52
The God Delusion

I personally found it a dissapointing book. His knowledge of the bible and religions is very simplistic and flawed. He uses religious extremeists views as examples to argue against, which to be honest we could all do easily.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 16:11
The God Delusion

"Would this not also be the case if everything had been created by a single omnipotent being? Kind of like a signature"

Not according to the Bible.

ABCD Posted on 17/09/2010 16:39
The God Delusion

"oooooo"

Have you read it, i'm guessing no so to make statements about something you have not read is either very stupid or very very stupid.

The only “fact” about evolution (in the sense that Dawkins spouts) is that it has not been proven to be 100% proven, omly fools and zealots will say that it has been.

And this is a puerile thread that we get far to many of imho. All they do is allow juvenile morons to “wiki” some “facts” in the hope that they sound intelligent.

slovak Posted on 17/09/2010 16:48
The God Delusion

" Evolution is proven by science, there's no disputing that"

"What a moronic statement to make ffs. NO it is not..."

[:o)]

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 16:54
The God Delusion

No, I have not read the bible. Good guess. Where does it say that God made men from animals? Because that what evolution proves.

There's absolutely no evidence at all for a god and massive amounts of evidence for evolution.

While I understand how the scientific process works from a hypothesis moving to a theory once supporting evidence has been found, you will eventually get to the point where there is so much evidence in favour of something then you can't really pretend that there is major doubt there.

Does the moon exist? FACT.
Does the Earth move around the Sun? FACT.
Does evolution exist? FACT.

Old_Gregg Posted on 17/09/2010 16:56
The God Delusion

Never has the phrase, "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" been more apt.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 17/09/2010 16:58
The God Delusion

" Evolution is proven by science, there's no disputing that"

What a moronic statement to make ffs. NO it is not and there are many, many scientists who will disagree with dawkins as there are those that agree with him."

I'm not on about Dawkins, I'm on about Evolution in general. It is accepted by the scientific community due to alot of studies carried out over many years. Whether you believe it or not is another thing but so far it has a more convincing case than any other theory.

Also if you read the rest of my post you'll find it's quite balanced and open minded. My own beliefs are nothing like the dogmatic beliefs of organised religion though.

Nothing against people who follow a religion if it genuinely enhances their life, fair play to them, I just don't buy into it myself.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 16:59
The God Delusion

old_gregg, you think evolution doesn't exist? What the XXXXXX are fossils?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 17/09/2010 17:04
The God Delusion

'Nothing against people who follow a religion if it genuinely enhances their life, fair play to them, I just don't buy into it myself.'

Yes, agreed. They shouldn't however, have parliamentary representation. They're doing too much damage to the lives of others.

joshie Posted on 17/09/2010 17:09
The God Delusion

If some people need a mystical crutch to get through their life thats really only their concern and good luck to them. If they then force their set of beliefs on children with no evidence to back up their crutch they are wrong.

If they persecute people or brain wash them from an early age or make them guilt ridden they are pathetic.

My personal opinion is that eventually humanity will mature and out grow religion in the same way children out grow the toys of their childhood.

If in the mean time it offers some people solace and doesnt hurt anyone else then fair enough.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 17/09/2010 17:10
The God Delusion

If they get elected on those principals they'd have to have representation in a free society. Unfortunate though that is ha.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/09/2010 17:13
The God Delusion

All religion is a load of XXXXXX.

Another couple thousand years and hopefully we'd have grown out of it, it's just part of evolution.

Old_Gregg Posted on 17/09/2010 17:18
The God Delusion

"old_gregg, you think evolution doesn't exist? What the XXXXXX are fossils?"

Of course I believe in evolution, all of the evidence backs it up. However to say that the theory of evolution has been "proven as FACT" is patently nonsense. It is the best theory AT THIS TIME to explain the facts, but it certainly hasn't been proven beyond all doubt.

Look at Einstein's theory of relativity - one of the most famous scientific discoveries of all time, but now many scientists have found errors in it as tecnology allows more detailed experimentation. Who can say if this won't be the case for the theory of evolution.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 17:24
The God Delusion

The amount of evidence really does make a difference. Would it be better if I said it was 99.9999999% probable?

It's as much a fact as the moon orbits around the earth.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/09/2010 17:31
The God Delusion

Evolution is regarded as fact now, it's all in the genes, we share a few genes with a cabbage and 90 odd percent with chimps.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 17/09/2010 17:31
The God Delusion

"It's as much a fact as the moon orbits around the earth"

To be a little pedantic, and why not, technically the moon doesn't orbit the earth.

slovak Posted on 17/09/2010 17:33
The God Delusion

How can anybody dispute evolution??

Any fool can see that it exists when looking at this link


Link: link

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 17:35
The God Delusion

"To be a little pedantic, and why not, technically the moon doesn't orbit the earth."

Does it not? Give your head a shake.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 17/09/2010 17:40
The God Delusion

Oh dear.[rle]

Quick wiki Barycenter and then edit before anybody else has seen.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 17:45
The God Delusion

Yes, because that makes my comment on the Moon orbiting the Earth completely invalid, doesn't it?

two_banks_of_four Posted on 17/09/2010 17:46
The God Delusion

well, I did say technically sweetie [:X]

I am not overly happy with the description of relativity as a 'discovery' but I will let that one go.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 17:47
The God Delusion

A stunning and decisive victory for you!

Dibzzz Posted on 17/09/2010 17:50
The God Delusion

How anyone can deny evolution with the rock solid proof all around us is beyond me?

joshie Posted on 17/09/2010 17:52
The God Delusion

You also said to be a 'little' pedantic...

smoggy_jay Posted on 17/09/2010 17:53
The God Delusion

I dont believe in god, i think people who do are idiots but each to their own.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/09/2010 18:01
The God Delusion

Same here, just seems a waste of time to me.

littlejimmy Posted on 17/09/2010 18:30
The God Delusion

Evolution ain't actually a rock-solid fact, it's a theory that best suits observations of the world. It is subject to revision, update and improvement like all scientific theories.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/09/2010 18:36
The God Delusion

But at the end of the day, it is a fact.

OPEO Posted on 17/09/2010 20:15
The God Delusion

Where does god live? does he have any neighbours? What does he do in his spare time? Does he pay tax? The list is endless.

SmogOnTheTrent Posted on 17/09/2010 20:18
The God Delusion

Not much point in arguing with the god squad, these people murder each other over their own versions of the same bullshyte story. How many have been murdered because of religion? How many more have to die before the intellectually challenged accept that its a fairy tale?

FC_Twente_Bensons Posted on 17/09/2010 20:25
The God Delusion

its amazing how stupid some people are, they will believe anything a scientist says because scientists are 'smart', but really its mostly theories and guess work.

look back through time at how many times scientists have come up with things that later on in time have turned out to be total bollox.

scientists cant prove god does not exist and religious people cant prove he does so just believe it or dont thats you only option.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 20:29
The God Delusion

as a theory, evolution is very, very strongly backed with evidence. Despite the catholic church having there best minds working to refute it for 150 years, it still stands strong, against all scrutiny, and zero contradictory evidence has been found.

The proposed alternative, Creationism, has much contradictory and zero corroborating evidence.

The odds are massively stacked in evolutions favour. So many flaws and holes in creationism it's preposterous. For it to be true we would have to be massively wrong in so much of our understanding of physics and chemistry. When exactly did the dinosaurs live? within the last 6,000 years? give me a break.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 20:38
The God Delusion

Just taking the word of scientists is a little over-simplified, I'm afraid!

Someone can say "humans have evolved" but I've seen the fossils! That isn't two groups on opposite sides with equally competing theories.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 20:41
The God Delusion

oooooooo I don't 'just take the word of scientists', I then study and research and come up with the same conclusions.

Do you just take the words of religious folk and accept that god exists? That would be madness, personally I looked into 'the God theory', realised that there was zero evidence and plenty of flaws and decided....it's a fairy tale. It's the ONLY logical conclusion.

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 20:49
The God Delusion

if God made the earth, he is the grand designer. Then he must be a complex life form. So who made him? So many holes...

FC_Twente_Bensons Posted on 17/09/2010 20:57
The God Delusion

'So who made him? So many holes...'

there you go... that is a question based on 'human knowledge that something has to be made'

the whole thing about religion is believing in something that is outside our knowledge, your basing your answers around gods existence being subjectable to our knowledge of whats possible and what isnt.




sixtyniner69 Posted on 17/09/2010 20:59
The God Delusion

" Hawking writes, "The question is: is the way the universe began chosen by God for reasons we can't understand, or was it determined by a law of science? I believe the second." "

but god could have chosen it for reasons that he can not understand[rle]
he makes it clear that he leaves room for a change of opinion[;)]

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 21:08
The God Delusion

"there you go... that is a question based on 'human knowledge that something has to be made'"

You do see the irony in that, don't you? Come on, the entire argument for 100s of thousands of creatinists is that the world is so complex that it MUST have been made by someone. That is the very argument that keeps creationism alive in much of the populous.

Now your telling me that the 'person' that made creationism may just 'be' and didn't have to be made by someone/thing else. I think you have just described the big bang [:D] Congratulations you are one step further down the road to enlightenment [^]

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 21:12
The God Delusion

boromart, my reply was to FC_Twente_Bensons post just a little bit above mine.


oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 21:15
The God Delusion

I think it's worth posting again:

**********************************

"there you go... that is a question based on 'human knowledge that something has to be made'"

You do see the irony in that, don't you? Come on, the entire argument for 100s of thousands of creatinists is that the world is so complex that it MUST have been made by someone. That is the very argument that keeps creationism alive in much of the populous.

Now your telling me that the 'person' that made creationism may just 'be' and didn't have to be made by someone/thing else. I think you have just described the big bang Congratulations you are one step further down the road to enlightenment


**********************************

That's the full and devastating truth about the idea of a Creator. No matter what you read, you simply cannot argue with the logic above.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 17/09/2010 21:28
The God Delusion

"Hawking has stated that he is "not religious in the normal sense" and he believes that "the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.""

hawkins says he does not know and you lot are basically thick opinionated fukwits [;)]

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 21:53
The God Delusion

It's not the Church of Hawkin. I disagree with him if that represents his stance. I refer you to the Creator absurdity above from boromart.

Hawkin is clearly very clever but no-one is suggesting he was a carrier of absolute truths on all things.

I also think his 'God' quotes are taken out of context in the same way Einstein's "God doesn't play dice" distortion was unfairly mocked.

7_The_Informer Posted on 17/09/2010 22:34
The God Delusion

Hmm, an interesting thread that we have every now and then on here. Some good points, some bad points.

As a scientist, I have to say that there isn't any evidence for a god. But that is why religion is called faith - you have to believe in something there is no evidence for. Is there evidence for evolution? Yes, there is certainly a lot of evidence for micro-evolution on the small scale and some (but much less) for macro-evolution on the large scale. Is evolution in its current form a proven theory? Far from it.

Will we, as scientists, ever be able to discover the origin of the Universe? No, we won't. Why not? Well, the problem is energy.....

So, it is believed that immediately after the Big Bang, the Universe was very hot and as it expanded, it cooled down. Currently, one of the pieces of evidence for the Big Bang was the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. That is, the temperature of space is 2.73K. That is, -270 Celsius and 2.73 degrees above absolute zero. Now, as things get hotter, it is because they have more energy associated with them. So, one way of going back in time is by building particle accelerators like the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. This is currently the biggest of its type in the World and hence can create particles with more energy than anything else in the World. This means that it can go back farther in time than anything else. The energies that this creates produces temperatures of 10^13 or so Kelvins (that 10 with 13 zeroes after it). Now, this is pretty hot, but not hot enough to study the Big Bang. There are four fundamental forces of nature, the strong (nuclear) force, gravitation, electric and weak force. Now, it is believed that at very early times, all four forces were unified and theories that have this in are called "Grand Unified Theories". However, to get this far, we need shed loads of energy which even the LHC at CERN will get nowhere near. However, if we go to high enough temperatures, we can start to see the unification of some of those forces, such as the weak and electric forces (called electro-weak) and that we have the energies for. But, as we'll never be able to go back to investigate the very early Universe, before the Planck time (without building a particle accelerator the size of our galaxy first), the best we can do is have theories that explain what we do see and then extrapolate back to what we can't measure.

So, just as evolution can never be proven, the Big Bang can never be proven, the best we can do is have overwhelming evidence for it.

HolgateCorner Posted on 17/09/2010 22:53
The God Delusion

I think most people can sympathise with the scientists and have a bit of respect for the theories which get churned out to explain how a planet like earth suddenly appears 5 billion years ago (or is it 12 billion, give or take a couple of years) and holds a perfect distance millions of miles from the sun to allow perfect conditions for a life form (carbon based, mind you) to exist and thrive.

The leaps of faith come in getting your head around this sudden spontaneous creation of life about 4 billion years ago (give or take a couple of years) which has happened once and only once and then the (obvious) evolution of a spec of bacteria into a fully fledged human being complete with eyes, ears, pulmonary system complete with blood supply, nervous system, advanced brain, digestive system and a couple of arms and legs thrown in for good measure.

Untl science gets some better answers on the table, the world's religions will continue to attract billions of followers.

oooooo Posted on 17/09/2010 23:05
The God Delusion

The fact is that creatures have evolved to even consider it, as we sit here typing.

Everything would have that Goldilocks 'just-right' feeling. The joke is that someone said, when considering the harsh conditions of another planet, "I'm sure glad I didn't evolve there!"

Boromart Posted on 17/09/2010 23:41
The God Delusion

"The leaps of faith come in getting your head around this sudden spontaneous creation of life about 4 billion years ago (give or take a couple of years) which has happened once and only once and then the (obvious) evolution of a spec of bacteria into a fully fledged human being complete with eyes, ears, pulmonary system complete with blood supply, nervous system, advanced brain, digestive system and a couple of arms and legs thrown in for good measure."

Taken as a complete set it seems unfathomable, to the undiscerning eye, a leap of faith. However it is possible to break down the above and understand and comprehend each of the steps. There is evidence for many of the steps, and yes there is still plenty to learn about the origin of the universe, but there is plenty we do know, maybe not as fact, but as an unquestionable truth.

That is the difference between the scientific evolutionary view, and the faith based creationary view. Break the creationists view down and it is still no clearer, no more likely, and still has no evidence, plenty of contradictory evidence and still boils down to illogical blind faith.

plazmuh Posted on 18/09/2010 09:22
The God Delusion

Corcaigh_the_Cat
You just had to goad me into replying.
If you travelled back to the stoneage with a lighter they would consider you a god.
I think the stories in the bible are all well and good for children but to apply them to modern times is wrong.
It is full of contradictions and a lot of it is just makeyuppy.
I believe in love and peace nothing less nothing more, We all travel this journey to learn and unfortunately its damn hard and the weak need God as a crutch in hard times, Having never seen a miracle or a divine act im a little bit sceptical on an all powerful superbeing.
Maybe God is an alien whose to say one way or another proof cant be found but science will try to disprove him in the near future
so maybe he does exist.
If he does all well and good and he did make a fantastic job of planet earth its a great place to live awesome in fact.
Can,t we just leave all religion in the past and find our own path I think it would be better for us all.
Peace and love everyone
Regards
Plazmuh
[:D][:D][^]

ABCD Posted on 18/09/2010 11:39
The God Delusion

"To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an asertation that carries the same validity as a bedtime story - amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific."

(In Search of Deep Time. Henery Gee pg 116/7)

So evolution is a proven and acceoted fact is it, and don.t get me going on Darwins Tree as that will take about 2 minutes to debunk. People keeping spouting "facts" here but very few provide them.

Boromart Posted on 18/09/2010 12:12
The God Delusion

ABCD please try and debunk Darwins theories. The church has tried it for 150 years and still failed to debunk it....to the point where amongst learned folk it is almost universally accepted as an irrefutably truth.

At the same time as trying to debunk evolution, could you please put forward your supporting evidence for creationism!

Boromart Posted on 18/09/2010 12:17
The God Delusion

oh an just to put your Henery Gee comment into focus. He IS an award winning writer of Science FICTION. His literary greats include The Science of Middle Earth.

You need to do better than quoting a man who believes in Hobbits, although to be fair that is equitable to believing in a God.

ABCD Posted on 18/09/2010 12:27
The God Delusion

On Darwen’s Tree of Life

“Life appears to have had many origins. The base of the universal tree of life (Darwin s Theory – me) appears not to have a single root...... The traditional version of the theory of common descent apparently does not apply to kingdoms as presently organised. It probably does not apply, if not at all, to phlya, and possibly also not to many classes within phlya.” - M S Gordon Biologist.

“We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.” - New Scientist 2009

“The tree of life is being politely buried, we all know that. What's less accepted is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change.” M Rose Evolutionary Biologist

On the Fossil record..

“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is highly uneven or jerky record: that is, species appear in sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record.” David M Raup – Evolutionary Palaeontologist

Not my words but those of people who actually BELIVE in evolution, I could go on and on but really cannot be bothered. What you believe means nothing to me, just don't go making unsubstantiated sweeping statements of “fact” that are not in reality facts as pointed out by people who believe what you believe.

And as for Gee well he may be a writer but he believes in Evolution, what more would you like? Every quote is from people who acctually believe in evolution not God.

Boromart Posted on 18/09/2010 14:52
The God Delusion

Like I said ABCD, there is still more to learn, none of those scientists will absolutely rule out Darwins Tree of life. There may be multiple a handful of trees that everything comes from. It's still far more believable than the creationist theories.

darlonorth Posted on 18/09/2010 15:21
The God Delusion

I haven't read much of this particular thread but having seen many other creation/religion v evolution discussions on here I would imagine that this debate has achieved precisely XXXXXX all and that everyone involved still holds exactly the same opinions they started out with. ( and you'll probably all have the same argument again next month and the month after and the month after...)

God doesn't exist and Life on earth is certainly a process of evolution... fingers crossed at some distant point in the future mankind will evolve an inbuilt instinct that tells him that long drawn out Internet arguments with strangers about god (or race, politics, or 9/11) is a waste of every XXXXXXs time.


Link: Road to Nowhere