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Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 22:49
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

“It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”

Clever bloke, I'm sure he'll be proved correct.


Link: link

SplendidStuff Posted on 02/09/2010 22:50
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

good article, ties in with one posted yesterday about a designer universe.


Link: Designer Universe

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 22:52
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Hmmmm,

So who made the intelligent designer? Or 'God' ?

newyddion Posted on 02/09/2010 22:54
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

the action of spontaneous creation IS God.

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 22:58
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

No, it's a hypothosis that doesn't need god.

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:01
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

gravity is an interraction between two or more objects or caused by rotation of a single object

so which object or two objects were there when there was nothing?

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 23:04
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Gravity can't be there without one or two objects.

What are you getting at?

8_out_of_10_clowns Posted on 02/09/2010 23:05
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Like I said before the universe is a by-product of gods methane!

littlejimmy Posted on 02/09/2010 23:06
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I'm saying nowt. [xx(]

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:06
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Gravity exists because of creation not the cause of creation.

09_dave_09 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:07
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

No one knows guessing is stupid religious people are infants that dare not grow up.

8_out_of_10_clowns Posted on 02/09/2010 23:09
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

What was there before the universe? I mean before anything including stars,planets,black holes(come from stars I know),asteroids,moons.Has there always been something there too create it? If not how can that be? I'm Bamboozled!!

SplendidStuff Posted on 02/09/2010 23:09
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Heard all the boffins with physics phd's and doctorates, great minds which can rival Hawkings, here and now on this very football forum.

I wonder if any of them are cleverer than Einstein?

They have Hawkings beat so its hardly surprising[:D]

Julios_Hairband Posted on 02/09/2010 23:13
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Heard all the boffins with physics phd's and doctorates, great minds which can rival Hawkings, here and now on this very football forum."

If there were some sort of omniscient being, Boro fans would still reckon they know more than it.

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:14
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Hawking in 1988 "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God."

He originally went along with the Newton view that creation couldn't come out of chaos. Since then a planet has been discovered orbiting another star so, because the earth isn't unique, then there is a chance of simultaneous 'worlds'. So 'chance' is his new theory . . . . don't need a PhD to go to the bookies . . . .

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 23:14
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

bear66

Are you saying god created gravity?

Julios_Hairband Posted on 02/09/2010 23:16
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"gravity is an interraction between two or more objects or caused by rotation of a single object"

No, those are some of the possible effects of gravity that we can perceive, they're not necessarily what gravity IS though.

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:16
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

No. Gravity only exists because a creation occured. I choose to believe it was 'God' who reated the universe but I can't prove it . . . as no one will ever prove otherwise

HolgateCorner Posted on 02/09/2010 23:17
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

So Hawkings has now invented spontaneous creation?

And you lot believe all this poppycock he's spouting just because he was a famous Cambridge scientist.

You don't need to have a Phd in Physics to know he has proved nothing, just decided that a whole universe can spontaneously create itself.

Eh?

I don't think the Pope will be losing any sleep tonight, do you?

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 23:17
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Ok, just one question, who made god, the one who created the universe?

09_dave_09 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:18
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Why waste time guessing I dont understand you will never be satisfied.

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 23:20
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Because religion takes away a humans ability to think.

09_dave_09 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Really pathetic why people need the secruity blanket of religion

SplendidStuff Posted on 02/09/2010 23:22
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'Ok, just one question, who made god, the one who created the universe?'

Like i said there are some great minds on here who know better than the greatest minds known to man.



*EDIT*

Missed this little morsel.


' as no one will ever prove otherwise'



Oh really, i bet they said that about the earth being flat.

Time is all it takes.

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:25
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Really pathetic why people need the secruity blanket of religion"

Even more pathetic those who put there hope in pseudo-science that can only be 'explained' by toy models

Dibzzz Posted on 02/09/2010 23:26
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

09_dave_09

It's just that one question utterly destroys the creationist theory.

bear66 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:27
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I am, I know I am therefore I am

09_dave_09 Posted on 02/09/2010 23:30
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Yes but the creationist's would believe until definate proof otherwise which isnt on offer so a useless argument carries on, why dont people make the most out of the life they have got instead of imaginary friends and theory they cant prove.

br14 Posted on 03/09/2010 05:22
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Did he also say to his publicist...

"God not needed to create Universe, but bloody useful to question the existence of if you want to sell a few books".


Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 03/09/2010 06:53
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"who made god, the one who created the universe?"

Perhaps he as always existed. Your inability to accept this is based on your human interpretation of time which is an abstract concept entirely related to the movement of a planet around a star. Maybe you and all us other humans are just not intelligent enough to grasp the true existence of God.

And religion does not take away a person's ability to think. It only removes their ability to choose. Like you are trying to do by ridiculing people who want to believe.

Kirkylane Posted on 03/09/2010 07:11
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"And you lot believe all this poppycock he's spouting just because he was a famous Cambridge scientist."

The atheists as bad as the God-botherers, and just as childish.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 07:28
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

This is pure guess work, and as another scientist on Newsnight pointed out all hawking’s work is based on a theory (Theory M?) which is still very much unproven and a lot in the scientific world do not agree with.

The point is pre big bang with don’t have a clue what was and what was not.

The finding of another planetary structure like ours in, i think, 1992, helped to change hawking’s mind. All I am saying is another great finding could easily change his mind again.

Jeremy_Clarkson Posted on 03/09/2010 07:33
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I caught up with Stephen Hawking earlier




Here is what he had to say [^]


Link: Interesting

earlofcoulby Posted on 03/09/2010 08:11
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Hawking talks out of his arse. Literally!

peterkay Posted on 03/09/2010 08:13
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

flawed...nothing came from nothing next[:P]

Manfriday Posted on 03/09/2010 08:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

If you believe God wasnt created and has always existed, why cant you believe the universe has always existed? My belief is that the universe is constantly expanding then contracting to a pinprick, then BOOM it expands again, so on and so on

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 08:27
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

If God is timeless . . . and all of the laws of the universe are time related . . . . then the two aren't connected

peterkay Posted on 03/09/2010 08:28
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

your logic is crazy something came from nothing so this vast solar systmem one day just appeared[V] hawkings argument has no scientific basis its just his ideas.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:29
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

if the universe is a creation of a higher being then the two do not have to have a relation.

Manfriday Posted on 03/09/2010 08:30
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

What if the universe IS the higher being?

ABCD Posted on 03/09/2010 08:31
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

,

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 03/09/2010 08:32
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Its interesting that the pro-religous arguement picks holes in the scientific theory Hawking suggests, but doesn't offer any alternative suggestion as to how the universe (and eveything) was created.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:34
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

something created the universe, the big bang.

The question is what created the big bang.

i do not think it was nothing.

Dan_Ashcroft Posted on 03/09/2010 08:34
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

The Hawking quote in the original post sounds like one of those randomly generated sentences based on keywords.

Maybe it was! I mean people don't understand what he's on about anyway and it takes him a long time to create sentences a letter.. a..t.... a... t..i..m..e..

As he gets older who's to know that some of his genius theories aren't just the ramblings of a senile old man. You'd not know the difference half the time.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:36
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Jonny_Ingbar hawking doesnt really offer an answer, just bases nothingness happening on a theory other scientists generally do not trust.

its a good way to sell a book.

The trouble is we do not know what came before the big bang

peterkay Posted on 03/09/2010 08:36
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

so were did the big bang come from[:P]

Boromart Posted on 03/09/2010 08:37
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Perhaps he as always existed."
If God has always existed then that blows the argument of creationism out of the water, for God whatever religion you believe in, has the ability to think, design and create. This requires a complexity that could only have been designed by some super-god, but then who created the super-god......? The creationist theory collapses on itself at this point.

"And religion does not take away a person's ability to think." Nope it gives you a stock answer to anything you can't explain and takes away any need to provide any true analysis and devise theories. People used to think plagues of insects and hurricanes where sent by god. We know better now.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:38
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

because you can prove certain things are not created by a god that does not mean there isnt a higher being.

Dan_Ashcroft Posted on 03/09/2010 08:42
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Hawking created the Universe.

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 08:43
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Its interesting that the pro-religous arguement picks holes in the scientific theory Hawking suggests, but doesn't offer any alternative suggestion as to how the universe (and eveything) was created."

I'm a scientist and a Christian and there are difficulties with the scientific view. Just because scientists can discover and understand the complexities physical laws of the universe they think they 'own' them. As a Christian, things exist because of God . . . it's his creation including the laws of physics that enable us and the universe to exist. How this happens, I 'know' that I, and other scientists, will never discover what makes God tick

The_same_as_before Posted on 03/09/2010 08:46
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

It was only a few years ago Hawking said there was a god.

Leave him to his table tennis on trains.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 03/09/2010 08:47
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"The trouble is we do not know what came before the big bang"

It wasn't long ago that the big bang theory was scoffed at as being fanciful at best.

Its now commonly regarded and accepted by most of the scientific community.

I dont have a problem with those who have religous faith, quite the opposite, but there is absolutely no proof of a higher being - thousands of years later - and I find that difficult to explain.

FC_Twente_Bensons Posted on 03/09/2010 08:49
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

haha, been away for a few days, it seems nothing has changed, dibzz still spending all his spare time trying to disprove god exists lol, and p.s stephen hawking is full of shyte, people think he is brainy because he talks like a robot.

MarlonD Posted on 03/09/2010 08:50
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Monks invented lager, they were doing the work of God.

This is conclusive proof that God exists.

End of thread.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:52
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'but there is absolutely no proof of a higher being - thousands of years later - and I find that difficult to explain.'

there is no proof that there isnt a higher being either.

1000s yrs? when did you start checking? was on a 100 yrs or so we had witches and ghosts and ghouls and other things going on.

out of body experiences have only recently been proven.

ABCD Posted on 03/09/2010 08:52
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Nope it gives you a stock answer to anything you can't explain and takes away any need to provide any true analysis and devise theories."

Unlike the theory of evolution then? how about this:

According to those who think life just happened the simple prokaryotic cell (which has no nucleus) swallowed other cells (like the eukaryotic cell which has a nucleus and is far more complex), but they did not digest them. Rather these “simplest” of cells figured out how to make radical changes to the ingested cell but also how to keep the adapted cells inside the host cell in order to allow replication.

If believing that is not a “leap” (and a BIG) of faith then I'm a Chinaman.

Kirkylane Posted on 03/09/2010 08:53
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"so were did the big bang come from"

The Big Bang was invented by a Catholic priest called Father Georges Henri Lemaitre. The Church needed a Big Bang, Einstein and many other scientists were never convinced of the need for it. As Fred Hoyle pointed out when I was a lad, the oldest metals all have different ages, so why did they all have to be created at once?

Science used to be about explaining the natural world, not making up fairy stories.


Link: Wiki, but correct for once

number9 Posted on 03/09/2010 08:54
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Now i don't normally read threads like these or comment but i just cannot help it.

I AGREE WITH MARLOND

Piggy Posted on 03/09/2010 08:54
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I think spontaneous creation is a great theory. It means that I can sit here hoping for a cheese and onion sandwich to spontaneously create itself and appear on my desk. Preferably with a crusty brown bread with seeds in. Although I wouldnt be upset if I only got one made with Mothers Pride.

Sometimes, something to believe in is all we need to help us through until teatime.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 03/09/2010 08:54
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

@Bear - you're basically just trying to find a definition of God such that it can fit neatly into whatever science may or may not someday find. That's cheating, and not very scientific.



Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 08:55
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'Science used to be about explaining the natural world, not making up fairy stories. '

this is why you take hawking and his new book with a pinch of salt.

He clearly needs the money.

Boromart Posted on 03/09/2010 09:02
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"I'm a scientist and a Christian and there are difficulties with the scientific view." -- and just to balance it out, there are difficulties with the religious viewpoint, i.e. absolutely zero proof of any of it.

"Just because scientists can discover and understand the complexities physical laws of the universe they think they 'own' them" - now your just talking daft. Scientists are as in awe of our universe as any christian, and don't think they 'own it'.

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 09:02
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Very perceptive Julios_Hairband . . . faith and fact don't mix too well

beattsmjk Posted on 03/09/2010 09:02
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Ah! the age old God V Science debate!!


I think its a pointless argument because as much as I belive there is no God, and that Science accounts for 95% of our theories on the creation of the universe, the religious folks will continue to deny anything other than holy intervention even if science proved 100% that God does not exist.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:04
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'Very perceptive Julios_Hairband . . . faith and fact don't mix too well'

neither does this book and fact

Boromart Posted on 03/09/2010 09:05
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"because you can prove certain things are not created by a god that does not mean there isnt a higher being."

Agreed. It also means that somethings that people claim are gods work today, will be proven not to be in the future.

If god made the universe, then can someone explain 'how' he did it?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:08
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'It also means that somethings that people claim are gods work today, will be proven not to be in the future.'

no it does not, you are talking pure guess work.


my point is a higer being may have made the universe, may have not made it. we just dont know.

do you accept that nothingness was able to create all this? is that 'How' an acceptable one.

toxic_bob Posted on 03/09/2010 09:09
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Marlon has sealed my conversion. I will be continuing God's work tonight, twelve pints of it.

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 09:09
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Science accounts for 95% of our theories on the creation of the universe"

It's more like 0% if you don't know how it happened. Science is a consequence of creation, not the cause

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:10
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

bear66 well said

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 03/09/2010 09:14
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"there is no proof that there isnt a higher being either"

Not really a compelling arguement that one, sorry.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:15
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

it is.

as we have no proof either way, as to what created us.


MarlonD Posted on 03/09/2010 09:16
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

No-one ever wins these arguments.

Religion is based on human faith, science is based on conjecture & mathematics.

Both bore the t1ts off me tbh.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:18
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'science is based on conjecture & mathematics.'

no as was spoke about last night on newsnight, hawking's book is based on scientific faith. A leap of faith is required to go along with his theories

Boromart Posted on 03/09/2010 09:20
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Razmond_HWDR, like I said things that people previously said was gods work have now got proven scientific causes....unless god is actually micro-managing the weather systems and plate-techtonics. [rle]

"my point is a higer being may have made the universe, may have not made it. we just dont know." - agreed but since there is absolutely no evidence of divine intervention anywhere then it's a daft blanket theory to cover anything we can't yet explain.

Someone earlier in the thread said that after 1000s of years we still haven't proven that God DOESN'T exist. You can't prove something doesn't exist.

Can you prove the celestial teapot doesn't exist? If not then it's just as viable a theory to say that the teapot is the creator of the universe as any god that you may claim as the creator.

beattsmjk Posted on 03/09/2010 09:24
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Worshipping a 'GOD' is an inbuilt protection mechanism within the human phsyche!

It gives us an explanation for events that we cannot otherwise explain, however as we evolve, and our understanding of the universe grows, I hope that one day we put this silly notion of some guy sat on a cloud making all the big decisions to bed.

Who decides that our current God is the correct one? What about the hindus and their multiple Gods, the Pagans, the Greeks and their Gods?

As Richard Dawkins put it, the religious amongst us are all atheists, however my atheism goes one God further.


ABCD Posted on 03/09/2010 09:25
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I notice that the "board Scientists" are ignoring my question.

Why?

Perhaps I should ask abot DNA replication instead, thats EVEN more complex.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:26
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

no the point is that people say that god didnt create the universe as we have no proof a god did create it.

But by using that, we have no proof either then that he didnt create the universe.


So i agree with you on that point of the tea pot.

The point that was being made, i think by me, was that we are unable to prove either way what created the universe.

I do believe in evolution and everything that goes with that so when you say we know god doesnt create the weather, of course god doesnt. But that does not mean some higher being cant have created the universe.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 03/09/2010 09:26
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I actually said there was no proof positive that God does exist, its different to saying there is no proof that he (or she) doesn't.

You cant prove a positive with a negative.

We could talk about the bible and the whole scale inaccuracies within that, but then the suggestion would be it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:32
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

i'm talking about the possibility of a higher being not a god from a specific religious story.

we are currently looking for Alien life via Kelper with the thinking now that we may find more of a robotic life form, as the universe is billions of yrs old and some other creation may have evolved past our evolution.

That creates the possibility of something less organic than ourselves creating multiverses.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 03/09/2010 09:35
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

There was a programme on Sky about that recently Raz.

Battlestar Galactica I think it was called [rle][:D]

Boromart Posted on 03/09/2010 09:48
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"The point that was being made, i think by me, was that we are unable to prove either way what created the universe."
that is true, so creationists cannot state as fact that God did so, it's even more ludicrous to claim so without even circumstantial evidence to support it.

"I do believe in evolution and everything that goes with that so when you say we know god doesnt create the weather, of course god doesnt. But that does not mean some higher being cant have created the universe." - many religions did claim certain weather/natural events were sent by god. Those same religions have backed away from that viewpoint now, will they do so in the future as our understanding of the universe expands and eventually we find lifeforms elsewhere? Probably as it is the only way they can survive, influence people, horde money from them and buy lots of land.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:48
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

you may laugh.

but it is possible.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 09:51
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

they can claim what they like, just like hawking is doing. but until proven nothing is true.

true just like adam and eve story, lots of these stories were just that, stories.

Does not mean that a god, a higher being, did not create us and everything around us by the means of a big bang.

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 03/09/2010 10:03
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I know it goes against the grain on here, but maybe people should read the book before deciding on the merits of Hawkings theory, and not rely on tabloid summaries.


SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 03/09/2010 10:06
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

The funny thing is, Science & Quantum Physics is proving what Buddhists have been saying for over 3K

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 10:06
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Why? The comments are about what he's said. If the comments were intended just for people to buy a book then he isn't even worth discussing as a serious scientist. I've never read a book by Einstein but I can appreciate what he did for science.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 10:07
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'the merits of Hawkings theory, and not rely on tabloid summaries.'

Hawking summarised it himself for the tabloids

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 10:16
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Science & Quantum Physics is proving what Buddhists have been saying for over 3K"

Don't see anything in Buddhism about creation of the physical universe. And the tenth precept : To refrain from accepting gold and silver : seems to be some way off the modern selling of bad science

The_same_as_before Posted on 03/09/2010 10:17
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I still think it was one hell of trick for god to make everything look that old.

oooooo Posted on 03/09/2010 10:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"The funny thing is, Science & Quantum Physics is proving what Buddhists have been saying for over 3K"

Put the XXXXXXing Dan Brown book DOWN!

The_263 Posted on 03/09/2010 10:22
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Which God is being written off here? Or is there a party of gods who pressed the enter button on the 'create earth' following a god meeting to discuss the values of creating earth in the universe.

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 10:32
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

We'll all find out when our three score and ten, or so, come to an end

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 03/09/2010 10:32
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Countless physicists have drawn parallels between Nagarjuna's philosphy of emptiness and quantum physics. Don't believe me, type in Buddhism and quantum physics on your google search. Increase da peace[^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 10:35
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

will the world end if Middlesbrough ever beat Manchester United 15 - 0 in a league game?


or or or if Middlesbrough win the Champions League and Premier League... Game Over ... The End?

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 10:39
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

That's for heaven I'm afraid . . . . .

littlejimmy Posted on 03/09/2010 12:38
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Watch out, atheist scum! God is after you!


Link: Chris Hitchens - Unanswerable prayers.

Dibzzz Posted on 03/09/2010 13:36
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

There's a theory that we are just one of billions of universes, if so, the white bloke with a beard has been very busy.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 13:38
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

maybe he has helpers... and at crimbo he gives presents out.

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 13:41
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

He certainly does . . . Jesus

Dibzzz Posted on 03/09/2010 13:50
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Jesus [rle]

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 03/09/2010 13:53
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

The New Scientist's slant what Hawkings said.


Link: New Scientist

bear66 Posted on 03/09/2010 14:06
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Wow . . . so God woke up one day and . . . . "look I've got a new Universe to play with" . . . . . what small gods people conjure up in their tiny heads

I prefer "The heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of his hands"

littlejimmy Posted on 03/09/2010 14:10
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"If you believe in science, like I do, you believe that there are certain laws that are always obeyed. If you like, you can say the laws are the work of God, but that is more a definition of God than a proof of his existence."

This is the kind of thing believers leap on, but he's actually talking about the Universe being God in the metaphorical sense (or god with a small "G"), in the same way Einstein did.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/09/2010 14:11
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

the proof is out there.

BobUpndown Posted on 03/09/2010 15:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

science doesn't provide answers.. it asks questions.

religion, all man made no questions asked.

man & men have created 1000's of gods & religions to worship their gods for thousands of years..

science has only been at the table for a couple of hundred years at most, before then anyone who said anything against god or religion was killed.. by the church.

science will question what it finds and continue to challenge itself.

god & religion: blind faith... world is about 6500 years old & god, 1 god, the latest one.. forget the 1000's that went before (or we'll kill you, in many countries) evolution didn't exist, like T'rex now it's gods doing & 'beasts' as mentioned will cover the dinosaurs..

JonMc Posted on 03/09/2010 15:32
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"science has only been at the table for a couple of hundred years at most, before then anyone who said anything against god or religion was killed.. by the church."

Really?
I do believe there was an explosion of scientific theory in the middle east/asia thousands of years ago, all of which happened in a climate where we had more 'faithful' than we do now.

Science and religion are not exclusive and they can be quite compatible bed fellows. Trouble happens when church and state become intertwined.

Dibzzz Posted on 06/09/2010 01:29
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Religion takes away the ability for humans to think.

"Oh, why does that tadpole turn itno a frog? Because god does it."

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 06/09/2010 06:27
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

well just who wrote that law [xx(] and handed it down to the particles which he had created so that they could have their big bang [rle]

ABCD Posted on 06/09/2010 08:03
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Or even

"Oh, why does that tadpole turn itno a frog? Because Dawkins says does it."

Uhmmmm......

Evolution, lets those who cannot think for themselves feel superior.

I notice none of the usual "decry God" brigade have yet to answered my question, why is that?

SmogOnTheTrent Posted on 06/09/2010 08:50
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

The thing religious people have to accept is the vastness of the universe.

If there is a god, and it created the universe then we are so far down the food chain we're practically insignificant.

If you play the numbers game and you believe in a creator you have to accept the fact that there is more than a good chance that god never intented for you to exist.

You are an accident, a miscalculation, a b*stard in the true sense of the word.

ABCD Posted on 06/09/2010 08:53
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

90% of people on the earth are "biological accidents". [B)]

Dibzzz Posted on 06/09/2010 09:07
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

ABCD

Evolution is proven, god isn't.

Also, why would he create dinosaurs millions of years before us?

Maybe he likes dinosaurs?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 06/09/2010 09:47
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Maybe he likes dinosaurs?"

Not as much as my 8 year old son [:D]

Any debate around the existence of God eventually gets onto the subject of the bible.

The most popular work of fiction in history.


bear66 Posted on 06/09/2010 09:52
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

You'll soon find out why it's popular . . . and whether it's fiction . . . . soon in an eternal timescale that is

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 06/09/2010 09:58
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I already know its fiction, thanks [^]

bear66 Posted on 06/09/2010 10:02
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Sad . . . . .

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 06/09/2010 10:11
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I'll take my chances regarding the afterlife. I my not a bad person, I would actually like to think the opposite, but if entry to heaven is conditional upon belief, then that strikes me as a little backward to say the least.

I respect those who beleive and I respect their beliefs, but in my experience that feeling isn't generally reciprocated.

ABCD Posted on 06/09/2010 16:23
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Evolution is proven"

mabey in your mind but in the "real" world of science i think you will find that the theory of evolution is still just that.

"I already know its fiction, thanks"

Err have you read it? if not then you are a fool to make such a comment without having read it. But based on this statement..

"I'll take my chances regarding the afterlife" i'm guessing the answer is no.

Still waiting for an answer to my question boys and girls, no biologists on here?

Fletch Posted on 06/09/2010 16:25
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I have no idea about this thread but I bet Stephen Hawking is a better dancer than MarlonD and a better footballer than Lisbonlegend...

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 17:31
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Not sure I know what you're getting at, ABCD. Maybe people simply don't know the answer to your question, certainly not the laymen on here. But that doesn't mean we all have to give up wanting to know, shrug and say, "Oh well, must be down to some kind of omniscient, omnipresent, supreme being..." People didn't know what DNA was 100 years or so ago.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 06/09/2010 18:00
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

my conjecture is that middlesbrough football club with the ceo of keith lambs long distant relative got so big and powerful it formed the largest black hole that ever existed.

this sucked in the entire previous universe into one super black hole mass surrounded by the last vestiges of light shining white.

now middlesbrough football club being a black and white super power of course caused major upheavals in heaven.

god had a tantrum and a big bang followed

and a couple of billion years later keith lamb is trying to make sure that middlesbrough football club never becomes such a huge and potent power

prove me wrong

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 19:03
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

What question is that ABCD?

R0fl_tb_xx Posted on 06/09/2010 19:10
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

At the end of the day nobody knows whether god does/doesn't exist and the likelyhood is nobody will ever know. I'm getting bored of tiresome d**kheads like Dawkins and that pretentious bell end Hawkins telling us God doesn't exist when the truth is even they don't know for sure.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 19:11
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'pretentious bell end Hawkins'



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA[:D]


Give the bloke a break.

tom_mate Posted on 06/09/2010 19:13
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"I'm getting bored of tiresome d**kheads like Dawkins and that pretentious bell end Hawkins"
[:D] that's brilliant!

br14 Posted on 06/09/2010 19:37
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"Evolution is proven, god isn't."

Is evolution proven? Perhaps you should first define what you mean by evolution?

The spontaneous generation of life? What kind of life? The progression of species? Any specific species or all of them?

"Evolution" is a term commonly used to describe a complex set of theories that combine to provide a possible explanation for how life in all it's forms came about.

Some of those myriad theories are a pretty good approximation to what is observed, and are considered the best explanation for a given observation.

Others are pure speculation.

If it was proven, Hawking and Dawkins wouldn't need to beat about the bush. They could come out and say "there is no God". But they don't because to do so would not be scientific. They say, "in all probability there is no God" or imply there is no God while avoiding being absolute.

We've had these threads hundreds of times, and so far as I can see noone has presented a great case either way.

So carry on believing what you wish to believe. Just don't pretend it doesn't require some degree of faith.

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 19:46
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Faith in science? Come off it. You'll be saying Creationism is a theory with as much scientific basis as evolution.

Science is based on assumptions, observations and retesting.


Link: Faith in Science?

br14 Posted on 06/09/2010 19:52
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Define assumption.

Assumptions require faith. Believe me I've been bolocked many times for making assumptions.

If you still disagree, then explain to me how the first living cell came to exist.

R0fl_tb_xx Posted on 06/09/2010 19:56
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"If you still disagree, then explain to me how the first living cell came to exist."

[^]Pretty much what I was trying to say earlier.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:01
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"If you still disagree, then explain to me how the first living cell came to exist."


Every cell is made up of many smaller parts. There is the nucleus present in most cells, which contains DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid), which stores the blueprint of the cell. There are mitochondria which break down compounds and produce energy. There are many other parts in a cell, each of which has a specific function. These parts of the cell are made up of proteins, which are made up of long strands of amino acids, which are made up of different combinations of the base elements of carbon (C), hydrogen (H), nitrogen (N), and oxygen (O). Of all the possible types of combinations forming amino acids, only 20 are used in proteins. However, these 20 amino acids can form almost infinite numbers of combinations to create an almost infinite number of proteins.

But how was the first cell created? Charles Darwin proposed that the first proteins evolved from non-living matter. But how did this happen? Firstly, the earth was not the same today as it was 3 to 4 billion years ago when the first organic compounds where being formed. The early atmosphere was too hot for oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), and other elements to exist alone, as they do today. These elements combined to form methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), water vapor (H2O), hydrogen sulfide (formula), hydrogen molecules (H2), etc. These where all, and thus the early atmosphere was called a 'reducing atmosphere'. Further, as there was no free oxygen to form an ozone (O3) layer to protect the earth from the harsh ultra-violet radiation (UV Rays) from the sun. Also, there where incredibly violent electrical storms, which where more violent than any which occur today.

In 1924 Alexander Oparin hypothesized that organic compounds where formed in the early earth when the high energy provided by UV Rays, and storms, caused different molecules to react, and create new organic compounds, such as Amino Acids DNA, and RNA.

In the early 1950s, Professor Harold Urey and one of his students, Stanley Miller, began experimenting to prove Oparin's theory. Miller built an apparatus which circulated gasses likely to be present in the early atmosphere (Methane (CH4), Ammonia (NH3), Water (H2O), and hydrogen (H2) ) past an electrical discharge, simulating the UV Rays and violent electrical storms present in the early atmosphere.

After allowing the experiment to continue for a week, the results where startling. The previously colorless solution inside the apparatus had turned red. Upon analyzing the solution, Miller found many organic molecules present, some of which couldn't be readily identified. The most important of created compounds, however, where amino acids. This, in effect, proved Oparin's theory that organic compounds could have been created in the early atmosphere. Further studies showed that some amino acids would have combined with hydrogen cyanide (HCN), which is a byproduct of volcanic activity. This combination would form purines and pyrinidines, which are used to make nucleic acids, which in turn create DNA


littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 20:08
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Faith in the religious sense and assumption in the scientific sense are totally different. Real faith is never tested by observation but is held in the face of any contrary evidence presented. Assumptions are made in science and are tested by observation, and can subsequently be changed. Very, very different.

At risk of repetition (in yet another God thread, whaddya know?), I don't know how the first cell came to exist, but no scientist knew about atoms or DNA 200 years ago. Did God exist more back then than he does know? Well in a sense, he probably did...because those knowledge gaps were bigger.


R0fl_tb_xx Posted on 06/09/2010 20:12
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Okay SS, how does all that exist then.....

br14 Posted on 06/09/2010 20:14
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

So I think that's saying it was possible under certain conditions for some of the constituents for organice life forms to generate spontaneously. Subject of course to the correct balance of some pretty incendiary gases.

I'd say it takes a bit of a leap from there to a living organism.

Take the simplest form of life you can find and explain to me exactly how the constituents of that life might have assembled themselves, once they had been generated.

Pay particular attention to the mechanism for cell division (assuming your lifeform has cells) and how the DNA/RNA cycle was initiated.

If by this time, you haven't accepted my pretty simple premise that something we can't actually prove (because it happened zillions of years ago and we can't actually demonstrate in a lab) requires a certain degree of faith, then I'll leave you in peace with your absolute truth.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:15
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Read this.

Far too long and complicated to sum up, but suffice to say, creation is not exactly something you can do that with.


Link: click

R0fl_tb_xx Posted on 06/09/2010 20:17
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Okay how did all that exist....

This could go on all night. Trust me.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:18
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

br14 i understand the approach you have taken here, but in all honesty i am not a world class scientist so i couldnt possibly begin to satisfy your curiosty.

What i can say is that these people know a damn sight more than me, more than i could comprehend and i guess in a sense i have faith in these people, but i dont think its blind faith.

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 20:20
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Splendid knows! [^][:D]

Looked up Abiogenesis as well. Blimey, my head hurts after a few paragraphs.


Link: Abiogenesis...pre-Phil Collins, presumably...

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'Okay how did all that exist....

This could go on all night. Trust me.'


Read that page and then come back to me, it might take you all night though[:D]

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 20:21
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

br14, I'm certainly not saying I've got the Absolute Truth. Stop projecting, man! [;)]

br14 Posted on 06/09/2010 20:26
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Oddly enough LJ, some would argue the contrary.

In fact, they might argue that the fundamental wisdom in nature demonstrates the existence of intelligence in its design (if design there be).

How for example, are involuntary actions that are part of our makeup transmitted in DNA? Not just cell charactersistics, but the "instructions" necessary to enable the cells to act as a unified organism. The hard drive of life perhaps.

Given the simple hypothesis that life is the creation of intelligence, and that the holder of that intelligence has the capacity for bio-engineering, what more evidence do you need? Weird markings on the Earth in Peru?

Only the evolutionist confuses the issue of the origins of life by focussing on the gradual progression of species, when the real issue is one of existence itself.

Pretty simple for either side of the argument to postulate solutions, but much harder to actually demonstrate.

Therefore, it requires faith.

Faith for example, that somehow compounds in the atmosphere were subject to just the right set of environmental conditions to generate life in all it's complexities (even in the simplest form). Despite the fact that we're nowhere near demonstrating that eventuality in the lab. (Granted they can produce simple amino acids etc).

Surely no less faith than the belief that there could be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe or beyond. A fairly reasonable hypothesis given what we don't know about the universe we inhabit.

Thankfully, I'm happy here on my fence and don't have to make a choice.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:30
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

br14, if i may.


You are talking about the unachievable in the now, look at progress and tell me we wont know more in 100-200 years.

You do understand the evolution of science and what is has acheived so far, bearing in mind the acceleration of the process?

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 20:37
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

I've got a bleedin' George Michael song in my head now.

I just think you're confusing faith and gaps in knowledge, and employing no little amount of confuddlement.

I'm happy to sit just this side of the fence, but with only one leg on the ground, if that's OK.




Link: RNA World

br14 Posted on 06/09/2010 20:38
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"You do understand the evolution of science and what is has acheived so far"

Yup. We live in enlightened times. Not quite enlightened enough to solve the worlds ills, but some of us are pretty fortunate compared to our forefathers.

None the less, scientists are human like the rest of us, and some are happy to skew results if it means they'll get funding. (Others write books).

Clever the Phil Collins reference btw [smi]

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 20:40
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

SS...[^] That point I have made already. We didn't even know that DNA existed until 1869.

SplendidStuff Posted on 06/09/2010 20:41
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

'None the less, scientists are human like the rest of us, and some are happy to skew results if it means they'll get funding. (Others write books).'

I dont think the great minds of our time are happy to 'skew results'.


I expected the synicism though, however science will still progress and evolve, and we will figure out much more, just a matter of time.


ABCD Posted on 06/09/2010 21:23
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Micro Biologist Radu Popa does not agree with the idea of creation but wrote the following in 2004...

" How can nature make life if we failed with all the experimental condition controlled?" He adds..

"The complexity of the mechanisims required for the functioning of a living cell is so large that a simultaneous emergence by chance seems impossible" (Between necessity & probability. Searching for the Definition & origin).

So Science agrees Evolution is a fact does it?

littlejimmy Posted on 06/09/2010 21:25
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

You're talking about abiogenesis, not evolution.

Anyway, which is more improbable: the emergence of life on one or more of billions of planets or the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent creator?

Dibzzz Posted on 06/09/2010 22:20
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

If god wanted us to take him seriously why did he come up with all this mumbo jumbo?

Earth made in 6 days around 5,800 years ago.
Adam and Eve.
It's a sin to be gay.
Limbo.

I'm sure there's plenty more?

HolgateCorner Posted on 06/09/2010 23:03
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

since when did God write the Bible?

I must have missed that documentary...

bear66 Posted on 06/09/2010 23:29
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

In the beginning was the Word . . . . . .

br14 Posted on 07/09/2010 00:12
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

"You're talking about abiogenesis, not evolution"

Abiogenesis is really all that matters. Assuming there is life, the intelligent design theory is no less compelling than evolution. A lot simpler too.

"the emergence of life on one or more of billions of planets or the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent creator?"

They both seem pretty improbable.

And the more we learn, the more there is to learn.

What the hell is nonbaryonic dark matter for example?

number9 Posted on 07/09/2010 08:53
Stephen Hawking - God not needed to create Universe

Dibzz

Are you sure of your facts there?