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Lisbonlegend Posted on 20/06/2010 23:27
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Will rightly prove to be the end of Capello.

degsyspesh Posted on 20/06/2010 23:28
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

......and would have made feck all difference to the last two games......

HolgateCorner Posted on 20/06/2010 23:32
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

it might not have made any difference, but you cannot say that with any certainty.

One thing his poor squad selection has done is leave himself with very few alternatives if plan A didn't work.

Not_Smog Posted on 20/06/2010 23:33
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Exactly what would Downing have done?

Johnson should have gone instead of Wright-Phillips but Downing didn't deserve to go.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 20/06/2010 23:34
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Let's pick 5 right sided players and no lefties, cos that'll work a treat.

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:35
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing and Johnson are two good players, but one is woeful at international level and the other is unproven and unfamiliar with this England set-up.

I don't think leaving either out is a mistake.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 20/06/2010 23:36
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Massive mistake leaving out two of Englands most creative wingers.

Nero Posted on 20/06/2010 23:39
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing is exactly where he should be. His season does not merit a call up to a World Cup.

In fact, if he wasn't left footed, he wouldn't even be in the thinking for England.

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:39
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

But Downing has failed 90% of the time he has put an England shirt on, so much so in fact Capello played Gerrard on the left during qualifying.


HolgateCorner Posted on 20/06/2010 23:40
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I agree they could not have been any less creative than the Sky Sports superstars currently disgracing the squad, and the probability is that they would have been a damned sight better.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 20/06/2010 23:42
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

To be fair Peter, for the first few qualifiers, Downing was playing in a struggling Boro team. His confidence was low. For the rest of the qualifiers, he was injured.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 20/06/2010 23:42
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

England have hardly lost a game Downing has played in and with good reason.

degsyspesh Posted on 20/06/2010 23:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Even when playing at his best, Downing's performances for England have been fairly flat. The issue being that Downing has been gash for most of the season and would undoubtedly have been dreadful for England.

Johnson is a very different issue. Personally I'm massively surprised at how well he has done for Man City since moving there. But this is playing in a good team that itself is plating well.

Johnson is not the sort of player who is going to grab the game by the balls and make things happen. I would much rather that he had taken Johnson than SWP who has proved himself to be even more incapable at this level than anyone believed possible. But at the end of the day I am almost certain that Johnson would have made absolutely no difference to the outcome of the last two games or the way which we played.

If anything he is better keeping out of it and spending the next two years establishing himself in the prem before Euro 2012.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 20/06/2010 23:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Whatever people think about Downing, Wright-Phillips should not be in the squad ahead of him.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 20/06/2010 23:46
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing always played well with Wayne Bridge and poorly with that little arrogant overrated scrote Ashley Cole.

smog_mfc Posted on 20/06/2010 23:46
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Not to take Johnson is stupid.

He was keeping Wrightphilips out of the City team.
And Capello said he was picking players on form. Goes to show hes full of Bull sh!t when he picks Heskey and leaves Bent as well.

Not taking a left footed winger is pathetic.
No wonder we don't have balance.
Fair enough Joe Cole can play there, but he doesnt have a left foot and against the good teams he will be shown on his left foot.

offside-again Posted on 20/06/2010 23:47
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing was arguably m.o.m when we beat the Germans 2-1 in that friendly, in other games he may not have done great but he's hardly been rubbish, should have been in contention at least.

Johnson defo should have gone, after all he gets picked ahead of SWP for Man Citeh.

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:48
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing was often selected for the England squad but found Gerrard ahead of him in the first XI, which obviously says a lot about what Capello thinks of him, despite his comments two years ago.

Capello has obviously seen the success of the set-up that was great during qualifying and stuck with it during the World Cup, it hasn't paid off though.

Leaving Downing out was the right thing to do, he has done nothing this season to suggest he deserved a place in the squad and most of his performances under Capello have been incredibly unconvincing.

r00fie Posted on 20/06/2010 23:50
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Both should have gone. The shower of chit we have now is appalling. Teesside lads = they would be proud to play for their country![^]

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:50
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing was arguably m.o.m when we beat the Germans 2-1 in that friendly, in other games he may not have done great but he's hardly been rubbish, should have been in contention at least.
---
True, it was one of his better games, but the XXXXXX-poor performances he's given for England will overshadow that.

In competitive games for England though under Capello, what has Downing offered?

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:52
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing always played well with Wayne Bridge and poorly with that little arrogant overrated scrote Ashley Cole.
---
Ashley Cole is undoubtedly one of the best left-backs in world football. I'd rather he be in the team than someone as appalling as Downing has been.

Boromart Posted on 20/06/2010 23:54
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Exactly what would Downing have done? " -- well he would have retained the ball through simple but effective passing....Gerrard, Lennon, Rooney and Lampard could learn a lot from his example.

petedreadnought Posted on 20/06/2010 23:57
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Ahhh, the old "ball retention" argument the Downing fans come out with every time, almost as frequent as the "balance" defence they use.

Shame he never actually shows this for England though, eh?

[rle]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:01
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

And where's Micah Richards?

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:02
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

At home I would have thought.

scobba Posted on 21/06/2010 00:03
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

[8)]

robbso Posted on 21/06/2010 00:05
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing didn"t play well with Cole at left back because more often than not Cole was bombing on in front of him as though he was the winger .
I agree he played better when Bridge was in the side because Bridge would concentrate more on his defensive duties.

How did SWP deserve a berth in the squad?He has done nothing for ages,if ever and is probably the worst crosser of the ball i have ever seen from a so called winger.

We cry out for left footed players in this country and when presented with two we ignore them.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:10
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Micah Richards was once the great young English hope, a bulldog of a fullback with the world at his feet.

scobba Posted on 21/06/2010 00:11
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

what about david wheater

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:12
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

And now he's at home.

[8)]

robbso Posted on 21/06/2010 00:12
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

He had to stop training though,his bling was weighing him down.Another one,too much too young.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 00:12
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Lisbon is 100% correct in what he says, this is what I've been saying since the squad was announced.

These people who think the opposite just need to think about the fact that Capello has used 4 different players on teh left wing in two games, none of which are left footed, none of which are comfortable there and none of which have been any bloody good.

get over yourselves, Capello made a huge mistake, swallow your pride and accept the bloody obvious.

The stats also support the fact that england are a more successful team with Downing on the pitch, the main reason why he has had some poor performances is that he is not part of the clique. He took Joe Cole's place and the Chelsea / Liverpool scum weren't happy, they hardly passed him the ball, and when they did they hardly gave it to him in good positions, the amount of times I found myself shouting at the tv because of Gerrard and Ashley Cole, not giving Downing the ball was crazy.

hardly helped the lad to settle in and feel part of the team, knowing that the 'superstars' were against his selection, because he was keeping their mate out of the side.

Thank you very much.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:13
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Another Capello mistake not taking Wheater.[rle]

scobba Posted on 21/06/2010 00:14
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

and cattermole

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:15
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Cattermole is rubbish.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 00:15
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

you're pushing it now boys. [:P]

r00fie Posted on 21/06/2010 00:16
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

and all they did was crying,
some say it was of their make,
with a check book over their shoulders,
they couldnt give a """"

scobba Posted on 21/06/2010 00:17
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

you're not wrong but so is wheater and downing although i am a fan of his has not had the best season, and before you say a few others that are there have been 5hite aswell

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:18
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

grantus, Capello's mistake is not playing Joe Cole on the left, not leaving someone as embarrassingly woeful as Downing at home.

You've shown yourself as immensely bitter with that utter dross about "Chelsea/Liverpool scum" and the myth that they didn't pass to him, which Downing sympathisers have invented to excuse how completely crap he is for England; always someone else's fault, never Downing's. [rle]

If it were true then what would be the point in taking him to SA anyway? The same "Chelsea/Liverpool scum" are still there! [:o)]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Joe Cole on the left? Why? And what has he done this season?

robbso Posted on 21/06/2010 00:24
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Capello"s mistakes are Carragher not being on holiday,Heskey being allowed to pull an England shirt on,Lampard and Gerard in the same team at a major tournament,Joe Cole not getting a sniff and Terry being stripped of the captaincy.To name but a few[smi]

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:24
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

It's not about what he's done this season, but the fact he has performed in that position well for England for many a year and shown himself to be a solid performer on the left hand side.

Downing has never done this with the exception of 2 or 3 times, and Johnson, as of yet, has not been given the opportunity.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:28
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Probably because Downing has rarely been given a chance, whereas Joe Cole is one of the blue eyed boys. Endemic of Englands constant failures over the years.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:30
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing had been given plentiful of chances and has flopped.

I'm sure you can muster another excuse for that, probably do to with other players no doubt.

[rle]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:33
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

When has Downing been given a good run in the side then?

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 00:42
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

He's got, for some reason, 23 caps under his belt.

I seem to remember him been given a good run under McClaren when he started the first handful of games in the Euro 2008 qualifiers, but was dreadful.

The fact is Lisbon, something which you seem to overlook is that he's done nothing with the opportunities he's been given to suggest to Capello that he's a worthy addition to his squad. He may well be left footed, but what use is that when he performs as poorly as he does?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 21/06/2010 00:54
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

23 caps and how many of those as sub. Downing and Johnson should both be in the squad to give some much need balance to a terrible squad.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 01:00
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

And there's the "balance" argument!!!

Make as many excuses as you want to, Downing has had ample opportunities over a period of about 4-5 years to show why he should be a vital part of the England set-up and he hasn't been convincing.

Downing would have been destroyed by the pressure over the past two England games, his confidence would have been shot to pieces and all this "balance" and "ball retention" guff that comes out would have been pointless.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 01:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Nah, I'm not bitter at all.

you can say all you want, but so far this squad has done jack sh'it and where is the flexibility to use different tactics then?

Milner on the left? Give me a break, SWP on the left, give me a break, Rooney on the left. [:D]

Of course it should be Joe Cole, out of this squad, this unbalanced squad of 'experienced' players that have never achieved anything.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 01:27
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

grantus, you've shown yourself to be one of the most bitterest people on this forum time after time.

Your constant promotion of Downing is nothing more than misplaced loyalty towards a former Boro player, if he were a Geordie you wouldn't be calling for his inclusion. It's the typical view of some football fans; they all want players with a strong association with the club they follow to play at international level regardless of how appalling they've been in previous appearances.

Capello didn't make a mistake by leaving Downing out; he's rarely repaid the faith Capello showed in him. Capello's mistake was not giving Joe Cole a chance against USA and Algeria.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 01:41
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

There's a difference between being bitter and disagreeing, I disagree, I'm far from bitter, you'll have to take my word on that one, as you really don't know either way.

I would have been happier if he had simply taken some left sided players. To me that would mean downing yes, but I'd be content with Johnson, I'd have been content with Young.

Call it misplaced loyalty if you want, but my opinions are backed up with evidence and are objective.

Taking Carragher was a mistake for me, taking King was a mistake for me too, Heskey, who can't get a game for Villa shouldn't have gone, neither should SWP, neither should Green.

They are my opinions and I can give reasons for all.

Downing may not be the best player we have, but you need a balanced squad in my opinion, and this squad is far from that. The fact that everyone is calling for Cole to start (something I've been saying since before the first game), but to start on the left - i'd prefer him behind Rooney, but due to the lack of left sided players, that option is not available to us.

Not taking left sided options is having an impact on our team set up and is limiting our tactical options.

If you can't see that, don't see that or simply disagree, then fine. But that's the way I see it.

I wait and hope that we improve and it is a problem that is solved, I don't want to be right, I - like everyone else want us to have a good world cup.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 01:56
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Your opinions are objective and backed up with evidence???

Where?

You and Lisbon seemed to have convinced yourselves that Downing is some super-dooper wonder-winger that is the answer to England's current problem, a problem as it happens, Downing has been given opportunity to remedy on many occasions yet hasn't.

However for some reason you still think he in the answer.

grantus, when has Downing ever shown for England that he provides anything to the national side? I'll give you Greece, T&T and Germany, all friendlies, but what is it exactly he brings?

I suspect you'll yakk on about "ball retention", something which isn't present in his game for England, or is it going to be the "balance" argument? I suppose if having a left foot, but being utter gash justifies that then you're correct. I think I'd rather take someone who does actually offer something than just the ability to kick a ball with his left peg.

If Downing had actually impressed on a regular basis for England your argument would be a valid one, but it relies solely upon the fact that Downing is left-footed rather than him actually showing he's capable of offering England what they need.

Robbo_89 Posted on 21/06/2010 02:07
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I'd have taken Johnson, he's unproven but he's been getting in front of Wright-Phillips at Man City.

I think Downing's a good player but he's not exactly been firing for Villa in the games i've seen, since he come back from injury.

It's all in hindsight now, but from the start he should have took Bent instead of Heskey.

It's obvious to all Joe Cole has to be involved against Slovenia.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 02:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

It's too late to go looking for the stats, but feel free to do it yourself. When Downing has played, England score more goals and concede less than when he doesn't.

Run the time from when he first played up to his last cap.

23 caps and selection by three managers will tell you that he's been doing something right in their eyes.

A bad season for Boro (his form was picking up at the end of the season and I maintain that if he wasn't injured we'd have stayed up) and a bad injury has put his international career on hold. He's been one of Villa's best players since he came back though.

He plays centre and left for Villa (James Milner doesn't play left for them, so why take him to the world cup to play him there?)

Anyway, it's not about Downing, although you seem to think it is, it's about taking players that can and do play in the positions.

Are you telling me that we wouldn't be a better squad with a couple of left sided players?

Like I said earlier, I'd be happy to have the option, whether it be Downing, Johnson, Young or anyone else for that matter.

Not SWP, Milner or Rooney (Gerrard has been ok there in the past sometimes, fair enough) - all of which most certainly are not left sided midfielders or left wingers.

You want to keep going on and on about Downing, fair enough go ahead, but this is about England - the old adage of square pegs and round holes springs to mind.

You are entitled to preferring Milner or SWP to play left wing for England, I'd prefer Downing, Johnson or Young.

That's the way it is.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 02:26
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

and by the way, stop putting two and two together and coming up with 57, you can keep accusing me of doing this or thinking that, but it doesn't do anyone any good. I suggest you focus on backing up you're own arguments rather than continually inventing nonsense and putting words in my mouth.

Try it. [^]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 21/06/2010 03:17
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing puts quality into the box, he is better at doing that than anyone else in the current squad.

Good delivery, good passing and balance. Not to mention a good work-rate and no fear about helping his full-back out when needed.

Those, pete, are some of the reasons for why Downing should have been taken to South Africa ahead of Shaun Wright-Phillips.

expat_smoggie Posted on 21/06/2010 07:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

you just can't win with these English players, they moan if they play too much football, they moan when they're isolated, they moan because they got injured during the season, they moan and find an excuse for everything. Basically, they just don't want to play. The play when they want to-- same as the Froggies. I dont see the point of entering a team when they waste everyone's time and hard earned money.

The_263 Posted on 21/06/2010 07:52
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"When Downing has played, England score more goals and concede less than when he doesn't"

Shame his presence in a red top in his final bottom lip season didn't yield the same effect.


superstu Posted on 21/06/2010 08:46
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Capello's mistake is not playing Joe Cole on the left, not leaving someone as embarrassingly woeful as Downing at home."

Fair enough for anyone who prefers Joe Cole on the left, but if you think Downing's a woeful player you're the one who should be embarrassed.

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 08:50
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

petedreadnought, your talking rubbish.

Downings ball retention for England has been extremely high. His passing stats have been in the top two or three virtually every game he has played. I suggest yoiu go back and look atfootage of games like the France game where he had IIRC 97% passing or the Germany game which was very similar.

You seem to have an entrenched opinion of the lad, it seems to be blinding your judgement.

The_263 Posted on 21/06/2010 08:57
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Problem is, the majority of his passing in an England shirt head towards his own goal.

In an England shirt - he looks like a fish out of water. No confidence whatsoever - this is probably a down to management, his cliquey team mates and mostly, himself.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 08:58
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I agree : if the current ball retention and passing capability of the England team is 3/10, Downing is nearer 10/10.

If Lennon is performing at 2/10, Johnson would be at least 12/10

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 08:59
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Grant,

With Donwing on the pitch for England we have only ever conceded 1 goal.....a brazilian equaliser at Wemberly...1 goal conceded in 23 games. A clear indication of the balance that he adds to the side. He holds the team shape and covers for Cole's forward forays, he gets behond the ball when we lose it denyiong space to the opposition. He has even put in 2 or 3 virtually goal saving tackles in the leftback spot. As I have already stated he has a very good passing percentage for England.

He would have more assists as well but for some very poor finishing by his team mates in certain games. The Macedonia qualifier where he got booed off the pitch is a prime example. Our best 4 misses where all from his crosses and were all taps in that his teammates fluffed particularly Crouch IIRC.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 09:09
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

downing has been poor by his previous standards in the last 12 months or so. in his last season for boro he failed to score all season. Milner and young scored and had a lot more assists than downing at villa.

he has made 23 appearances for england and failed to shine in them. How many more chances should he have been given even though he is off form?

I'd rather he gave joe cole a game

Ouroboros Posted on 21/06/2010 09:16
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Nobody's mentioned Theo Walcott, when he clicks he's more inventive than Defoe & Lennon (question over his finishing, granted).

And personally I would have taken Andy Carroll, because he's a nutter. England needs more nutters, especially as Rooney seems to have entered a hormonal stage.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 09:16
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Joe Cole with Crouch and Downing and Johnson on the wings . . . that would be a major improvement on the England team at the moment.

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 09:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

The_263, you have probably hit ht e nail on the head why the lad gets booed at international level. He doesn't take enough risks and play attacking enough. Not sure if htis is confidence or managerial orders. He has the ability to play forward passes as we know, if he wants a permanent place in the squad he needs to be a little more adventurous in future.

However in comparison the adventure shown by SWP, Milner, Lennon and Walcott in the build up games and finals was rubbish and possession usually squandered. So on balance I still think he should have gone.


smoggieboy Posted on 21/06/2010 09:26
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

johnson was the perfect player to bring on in both games to give u something different. a direct attackckiung player who can open up defences.
currently we have no1 with this ability!!

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 21/06/2010 09:29
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

England's current problems are nothing to do with ability or squad selection.

But not taking a natural left sided player, whoever it may be, was a poor decision, as was selecting a centre half who can only play one game a week.

r00fie Posted on 21/06/2010 09:31
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Two players who are naturally left sided who would give width and creativety to the average squad. Instead we have mardy arse and and no fight.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 21/06/2010 09:40
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

We flew through qualification without them and with Gerrard there.

Its noting to do with selections or talent, its down to the mood in the camp.

whocares Posted on 21/06/2010 10:08
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

its so obvious we need a natural left footer its painful! US and Algeria packed out the middle of the park so we decide to try and play thru it?! We tried to play thru it cos we've got no natural width, this in turn creates the argument of the wrong squad selection.

playing Gerrard on the left means he drifts in and pushes rooney out - lack of a goal scoring threat

playing Cole is a better idea with this squad - against the better sides tho he's actually made to play on his left which aint as good, but still better than the dog turd that has travelled

in essence Johnson should have been picked ahead of SWP, the worst player in the squad, even worse than Heskey

as for the downing argument... he's better on the left than Lennon, Milner and, SWP! so he should at least have been included ahead of SWP

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 10:19
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Jonny_Ingbar, I wouldn't say we flew through qualification.

You are generally playing very poor sides with maybe or 3 defining/important games. The only top displays were the Croatia ones. Andorra away was painful and we lost limply in the Ukraine. We also struggled to keep cleansheets conceding some sloppy goals.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 10:26
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

just play cole on the left. he's scored 10 goals from 50 games for england. downing is way off the pace in last 18 months and jsut because he is left footed doesnt mean he deserves a slot in the team or squad

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 10:57
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I think the Downing clan need to wake up and realise that when Downing puts on an England shirt he's a poor player.

All this desperate argument that grantus and Boromart come out with about "balance", "ball retention" and some really silly stuff about the amount of goals England score, as if it's linked to Downing, is really clutching at straws.

Hoe about you try to come up with a valid argument as to why he should be in the squad other than he is left-footed because that alone doesn't justify a place, especially when he's does nothing to deserve one.

newyddion Posted on 21/06/2010 11:03
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

----------------Hart---------------

Johnson----Wheater----Terry----Cole

Lennon--Cattermole--Downing--Johnson

-------------Gerrard----------------

----------------Rooney--------------

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:05
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

With Donwing on the pitch for England we have only ever conceded 1 goal.....a brazilian equaliser at Wemberly...1 goal conceded in 23 games. A clear indication of the balance that he adds to the side.
---
This sums up just how desperate the Downing sympathisers are.

Ignore the lack of creativity he offers England, ignore his painfully embarrassing contribution, lack of confidence and poor passing/crossing, instead focus solely on a statistic with an incredible amount of irrelevance, particularly at the moment.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 11:13
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

He isn't the player he was at the start of last season . . . but neither is Gerrard and there isn't a better player in the current squad with regard to creativity . . and at least he has some skills unlike most of the current squad . . . .

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:17
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

But these "skills" you speak are rarely used when he plays for England.

If he had shown in previous England performances on a regular basis that he does have something to offer I could understand why some people are suggesting he should be there, but I don't think the solution to the current crisis would be resolved by a player as terrible as Downing has been for England.

If Downing wasn't a Boro lad this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 11:34
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Balance and ball retention is clutching at straws. [:D]

23 for and 1 against is clutching at straws. [:D]

Being a disciplined, great crosser of the ball is clutching at straws. [:D]

give over man.

Pete - you've repeatedly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing about football in this thread.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:36
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

And you've clearly never watched Downing play for England.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 11:38
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Neither have I by your description of his play . . . but I have . . . so you've clearly never . . . .

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:41
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I and just about everyone who isn't a blinkered Boro fan then I guess.

It's fair enough falling back upon the same tedious argument and inventing qualities about Downing's game that he rarely produces when in an England shirt, but how about we stick with actual facts and reality; Downing is poor for England.

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 11:42
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

petedreadnought, it's about square pegs and round holes. IF you do it at Championship level you get caught out. If you do it at premier league level you are caught out even more. If you do it in world cup finals...well it's a disaster.

Other countries don't try and shoehorn players into the wrong positions.

Downing might not be the best English midfielder but he has proven over the last 5 seasons to be one of the best English left-sided players. He might not have had his best season...but that applies equally to about half this squad.

axel1974 Posted on 21/06/2010 11:43
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing would have provided a damn sight better service than Rooney and Heskey have been getting so far

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 11:44
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

most players are poor for England....lets just stop having a team because by your logic none of them are good enough.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:47
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing would have provided a damn sight better service than Rooney and Heskey have been getting so far
---
So why hasn't he shown so in previous England appearances?

It's fair enough saying that Downing would have done this, that and the next thing, but the simple fact is previously he hasn't, so what makes you think he'd do so now?

tjf81 Posted on 21/06/2010 11:47
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

With the pressure of a world cup DOwning and Johnson would have felt the pressure far to much and gone in to their shells. They rightly weren't picked.
The best team available has gone it just isn't performing!
As for that Newyidion team, if that is what we end up with at some point i think i'll stop watching football.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 11:48
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

why play downing on the left when jo cole can do a better job?

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 11:51
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

The best team available has gone it just isn't performing!
---
This is spot on.

Capello has taken a team that did the business in the qualifying campaign, but isn't working at the finals itself.

superstu Posted on 21/06/2010 12:02
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"but how about we stick with actual facts and reality; Downing is poor for England."

You could stick any number of players names in this statement. Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand. None of them perform as well for England as they do their club sides.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 12:05
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

rooney has a good goalscoring record for england 25 goals from 62 games. the problem is we have relied on him for so long and he is off form and we have no one else.

lampard could do better but he is still by far the best option. no one else come near him. ferdinand is injured but he has played well for england in the past.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 12:05
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

That is true, so why take more woeful players like Downing then?

[:o)]

jiffy Posted on 21/06/2010 12:16
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Because Downi8ng is a oproven deliverer of quality from either the elft or from a deadball situation. If anyone should be there as cover for Barry if he broke down it should have been him.

As for Johnson taking Wright-Phillips instead beggars belief. And does anyone seriously believe Johnson would have been as rabbit-in-the-headlights scared as the rest were last Friday? His own enthus1asm would have been enough to deal with Algeria who frankly make Australia and New zealand look class. Surely they are the weakest team in the entire competition.

Capello has used about 16 players I think in total so far. Other than the 3rd of the keepers and Joe Cole who is there on the bench so far unused who is actually a contender for inclusion? Noone at all capable of changing anything. We have a squad of 23 of which 5 are as likely to get involved as Walcott did in the last competition.

Thats why Johnson and/or Downing should have been there. Just to have a plan B - a genuine left side.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 21/06/2010 12:18
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing should have gone. I have to agree with grantus and the others who are pro-Downing.

Against Downing going, he maybe doesn't have enough spark at international level and doesn't create as much as we used to see at Boro.

However, he keeps his game simple, he passes the ball well, he has good work-rate and is disciplined, and of course gives the side balance. He's not really a traditional winger, more like a David Armstrong type, almost like a left-sided Beckham. How SWP was picked ahead of him, I'll never know.

Johnson is more skillful and can do things that Downing doesn't such as dribble past opponents. Downing is the type of player you'd start with if you wanted to keep things tight (depending on the opponents). Johnson is the type you could bring on if you wanted an impact player to change the game. Even if England were winning, you could bring Johnson on for a forward if you wanted to go 4-5-1 and looking to hit the opponents on the break.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 12:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Because Downi8ng is a oproven deliverer of quality from either the elft or from a deadball situation
---
Not for England he isn't, and that's what matters at the moment.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 12:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Downing should have gone. I have to agree with grantus and the others who are pro-Downing."

downign hasnt done much for 12 months to warrant getting the squad. take the blinkers off, ashley young and Milner have done a lot better than him at villa last season.

Downing hasnt even had any good games for england


ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 21/06/2010 12:30
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing missed 6 months with injury. His form at Villa might not have been great, but whenever I saw him on MotD, he'd often be on the right or playing left hand side of a three which doesn't suit him. Sas, Downing is a better left-sided midfielder than anyone in that squad.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 12:35
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

so his form at villa might not have been great but you still think he should go? i prefer jo cole on the left. downing has had 23 caps and rarely shown enough form to warrant a starting
position.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 21/06/2010 12:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Well, we'll have to agree to differ as I certainly don't think Cole is suited to playing on the left hand side of a four. I'm a traditionalist and I like to see left-footed players on the left and right footed players on the right. Failing that, if you're going to play someone out wide on the "wrong" wing, at least let them be a wide-player who can use their "wrong" foot.

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 12:46
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"It's fair enough saying that Downing would have done this, that and the next thing, but the simple fact is previously he hasn't, so what makes you think he'd do so now?"

Except the lad has only started about 6 or 7 games and has at least 4 assists. It should be more but Crouch was having one of those days against Macedonia and screwed up 3 chances on a plate by created by Downing.

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 12:48
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"why play downing on the left when jo cole can do a better job?"
...because Joe Cole should be central or on the right wing. He is good against poor teams, but rubbish against good sides. They know to show him outside when he plays left wing as he hasn't got a left foot.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 21/06/2010 12:49
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

If SWP deserved a place then so dis Downing.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 12:53
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

whats this obsession with haviong to play wingers. you dont have to play wingers and plenty of right footers can play on the left handside.

so what has downing done since he left boro to warrant a place inthe starting 11 for england?

in his last season with boro he failed to score int he league and had only 5 assists.

last season for villa he managed 1 assist for villa with 2 goals from 16 league games.

compare that to two seasons ago when he got 9 league goals and 9 assists.

he has been way off the pace for 2 seasons now. if it was 2 years ago i would agree that he deserves a run in the team

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 12:59
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Downing hasnt even had any good games for england" - France, Germany and Jamaica spring to mind

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 13:20
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I see Boromart is blaming other players for Downing being dross for England rather than Downing himself.

Pathetic.

[rle]

Boromart Posted on 21/06/2010 13:31
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Sas, brought up the assist situation.....you cannot possibly have an assist without the actions of other players.

pete, your being a bit of a child, either debate like an adult or go back to school.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 14:25
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

But you're the one, not the only I should add, that is blaming other players for Downing's poor performances for England, like it can't possibly be his fault.

If you're happy to have yet more woeful players in the national side, then fair enough. I'd rather not.

br14 Posted on 21/06/2010 14:31
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Downing's poor performances for England"

The games he played in he was certainly no worse than Gerrard, Lampard and a most of the others.

And in one or two he made goals.

Downing this season has played more centrally, as cover for Milner.

When the brilliant Milner goes forward, it's Downing that covers his arse. As a result Milner is picking up goals and plaudits, and Downing doesn't appear to be delivering.

I reckon he didn't go because Capello wasn't confident he'd have enough energy at altitude. Seems to have been the deciding factor in a few selections.

Same applies to Johnson. Doesn't usually last 90 for Man City, therefore not on the plane to SA.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 14:34
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

milner has been a lot better than downing this season. i know downing has been injured but milner has a lot more goals and assists last season for villa.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 14:34
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

So Downing have gone then, br14 because other players haven't had good games for England too?

[rle]

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 17:44
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Can someone explain to me what 'Plan B' has been so far in this world cup and how successful it's been?

tjf81 Posted on 21/06/2010 17:48
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Plan B must have to involve someone who could score a goal or have a bit of ability to change a game, Crouch, Defoe and Joe Cole fit that bill.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 21/06/2010 17:52
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

'When the brilliant Milner goes forward, it's Downing that covers his arse. As a result Milner is picking up goals and plaudits, and Downing doesn't appear to be delivering.'

That's absolute rubbish. Petrov's the man who does the covering, he holds the centre well. Downing has moved inside during games but goes forward as much as Milner does. Downing has been given lots of freedom to express, using both wings along with Young, as well as the middle. He's done ok, nothing flash. Outshone by Young on the flanks and by Milner and Petrov in the middle.

He's still adjustng to O'Neil's style of play and may improve next season, otherwise he'll be on his way to Sunderland, Stoke or Birmingham.

Johnson's had a decent half season in the Premiership, a decent half season in the Championship, he could have been worth a slot with his confidence being so high.

Joe Cole is a better option than both. More skill, more vision and more experience.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 18:04
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

My question is what has been plan B?

Bring on Crouch (nobody on the pitch that can cross a ball except Gerrard, who is running around like a headleass chicken atm)

Bring on SWP on the left?

Put Rooney on the left?


Yes, we all say Joe Cole should be playing, I've said it since the squad was announced, but bare in mind that a lot of the reasons that you lot are saying apply to Downing for not making the squad, also apply to Joe Cole who has made the squad.

If Joe Cole is the plan B, then why isn't he being used.

Plan B, should me a change of tactics, not simply a change of personell, espeicially bringing on players or moving them around to play in positions that they are no bloody good at.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 18:11
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

For the record, ALL of the Villa fans I know (6 of them) now rate Downing very highly. They tell me his form dipped towards the end of the season, but so did the entire team's.

Not surprising for Downing who had been out for over 6 months really.

They are all converted from the impression that the southern press had instilled on them.

I can't believe I get called bitter when so many on here seem to have a vendetta against Downing these days.

Give me him over Lennon or SWP, anyday of the week.

Then again, give me Johnson, or Young, or even Walcott (not for the left wing though) over those two.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 18:16
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

And now it's the "Southern press" to blame!

Who next? Thatcher?

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 18:26
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Oh come on, are you actually saying that the media has no biase? Are you really that naive, or is it stupidity?

It doesn't matter how much evidence, how many reasons you are given, you will take them as excuses.

You dont rate Downing, I get it, everyone gets it, but why not take some players that can actually give the squad some tactical options, why not take players who can play on the left side? It doesn't make any sense. It is elementary when setting up a team to have players that can play in the required positions. England do not have this, it's bloody obvious.

Why would somebody be so narrow minded and unable to accept other peoples' opinions, even when they justify them, they might ask?

It's because that said somebody is behaving like an idiot.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 18:29
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Give me him over Lennon or SWP, anyday of the week.

Then again, give me Johnson, or Young, or even Walcott over those two."

Agree. How could Capello get the squad selection so wrong.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 21/06/2010 18:32
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

'If Joe Cole is the plan B, then why isn't he being used.'

That's about it.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 18:36
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

No grantus, what I'm saying is that Downing is responsible himself for the reputation he has.

It's not because the Southern press have an agenda to chastise a particular player because he plays for a particular club. It's not because other players in the group won't pass to him, nor is it because Crouch didn't put away a header in some game against Macedonia. That's just the imagination of the bitter, blinkered defeated trying to excuse a player who simply isn't international class.

The only naive idiot here is you who continually rolls out these pathetic, desperate excuses every single time and tries to convince people it's "evidence" or "justification".

The press, rightly so, commended Downing when he played well against T&T and Germany and rightly criticised his poor performances in the many games where he's been just that.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 18:38
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone wasn't relying on Joe Cole to solve our problems?

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 21/06/2010 18:38
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I've said this before and I'm sure it's already been posted on this thread but how could Capello take Wright-Phillips over Johnson when he couldn't get in the Man City team because Johnson was playing so well? Far better than "decent" as someone who obviously can't have watched many games has put above.

Also Lennon and Wright-Phillips are basically the same player only Lennon has far better close control. When Wright-Phillips came on against Algeria nothing changed because there isn't really any difference between the two.

Add in the fact that Johnson was apparently the best creative player in the training camp and he should've definitely made the squad.

petedreadnought Posted on 21/06/2010 18:41
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I suppose relying upon a player who has shown he's a more than capable and a worthwhile addition to England is better than suggesting someone who has shown himself to be utterly incompetent at international level is, or indeed someone who has absolutely no experience within this group like you are grantus.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 18:43
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Add in the fact that Johnson was apparently the best creative player in the training camp and he should've definitely made the squad."

if it's "apparently" then can it be classed as fact.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 19:13
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

So everything is fine then, thank the lord and praise Joe Cole, the answer to our prayers.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/06/2010 19:15
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

better option than downing who has been off form for 2 seasons

Keverson Posted on 21/06/2010 19:17
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Downing? Really?

Johnson should've went instead of Wright-Phillips. No way Downing should have went, he done nothing all season to warrant a place in the squad.

tjf81 Posted on 21/06/2010 19:19
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Let's just hope for all our sakes that we get the result against Slovenia.
James
Johnson
Dawson
Terry
A.Cole
Lennon
Barry
Gerrard
J.Cole
Defoe
Rooney

That's what i'd go with.....

John_Lydon Posted on 21/06/2010 19:24
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Newyidion, that has to be one of the worst England squads i've ever seen.
Wheater will NEVER get near an England squad again unless it's the U21s.

Downing isn't good enough for England and has proved it plenty of times.
Johnson, yes he had half a good season in the PL but he's totally inexperienced for a Full Cap at a WC like Dawson.

You all seem to be forgetting about Ashley Young who had a good season with Villa.

If Downing and Johnson didn't have Boro connections, you wouldn't give a fuk.

grantus Posted on 21/06/2010 19:29
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I've mentioned Young loads of times on this thread.

bear66 Posted on 21/06/2010 19:34
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Young has had some good games for Villa, as has Downing, as has Milner . . . . and Young has had poor games for Villa, as has Downing, as has Milner.

SWP and Lennon have been very poor every time I've seen them and any two of Johnson, Downing and Young would have been a better selection

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 22/06/2010 02:36
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Good grief pete, did Stewart Downing tie your shoelaces together outside Heagney's or something?

That is one serious grudge you seem to hold against the lad.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 02:48
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

He's not good enough for England, it's as simple as that, viv.

[^]

br14 Posted on 22/06/2010 03:09
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"That's absolute rubbish. Petrov's the man who does the covering,"

Petrovs the holding midfielder CTC, but I've seen pretty well every game Villa played last season, and Downing moves inside whenever Milner pushes into attack through the centre.

Not just odd times, but every time. He therefore doesn't get forward anywhere near as much as he did for Boro.

The one time Downing didn't start for Villa once fit was at Chelsea. The game they got stuffed. Milner gets caught forward all the time. He's got the energy to get back but needs additional cover.

And whatever people think of Downing, there really is no point in sticking Crouch up front without a Downing or similar player to provide crosses. Lennon and SWP certainly aren't going to do that.

Johnson should have been given a chance. He's an unknown quantity, and can make a difference as an impact player when he comes on.

England are too easy to defend against because the "push and run" approach doesn't work against deep defences, and we have noone to cut through.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 03:13
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Funny how yet again br14's views contradict reality.

[rle]

grantus Posted on 22/06/2010 03:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"I suppose relying upon a player who has shown he's a more than capable and a worthwhile addition to England is better than suggesting someone who has shown himself to be utterly incompetent at international level is"

Relying on players like SWP, Lennon, Rooney and Gerrard on the left wing so far has been nothing short of disastrous, but why consider that, it's obviously of no concern to you at all, because we have another player who can be played out of position there and he will solve everything, that makes the shambles of the last two games irrelevent . He'd better get it right, because time is running out.

You, like a lot of the fleet street hacks are turned on by pace and a trick once in a while, give me a good footballer, one with a brain, one that can keep the ball, create chances and keep some discipline over that anyday of the week.

Let's hope Capello manages to find a way to get it right, because this squad that you are agreeing with wholeheartedly has been nothing but a joke, just like you pathetic nonsense on this thread, but hey, at least you've been consistently full of sh'it.

sasboro1 Posted on 22/06/2010 10:31
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Relying on players like SWP, Lennon, Rooney and Gerrard on the left wing so far has been nothing short of disastrous"

who was playing there during our successful qualifying campaign?

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:09
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

It's a bit ironic that grantus is accusing others of being full of XXXXXX when this brain-dead, naive simpleton invents qualities about players that don't exist and desperately tries to shift the blame of poor performances onto other players/managers/press and so on.

Your persistent promotion of Downing and your pathetic conspiracies really do sum up how little you know about football, stick to hanging out the back of Lisbonlegend like the servile nomark you are son, 'cos when it comes to football you're out of your depth.



Relying on players like SWP, Lennon, Rooney and Gerrard on the left wing so far has been nothing short of disastrous, but why consider that, it's obviously of no concern to you at all, because we have another player who can be played out of position there and he will solve everything, that makes the shambles of the last two games irrelevent . He'd better get it right, because time is running out.
---
Gerrard worked well on the left during the qualifiers. Capello obviously thought it would at the finals, it may may still do, but as of yet against Algeria it didn't. He relied on Downing on the left when he gave him his chances in the national side and he let Capello down.

If Capello continues with a 4-4-2 then I think Joe Cole should be played on the left hand side. I don't for one second think an England failure would solve this problem, but you seem to do, simply because he kicks with his left foot, ignoring the actual quality of previous performances like only an imbecile would.



You, like a lot of the fleet street hacks are turned on by pace and a trick once in a while, give me a good footballer, one with a brain, one that can keep the ball, create chances and keep some discipline over that anyday of the week.
---
I'd wager that those on Fleet Street who cover the football have forgotten more about the game than you've known in your life.

They do however know a crap performer for England when they see one, just as the entire country does, apart from a few moronic, blinkered Boro fans, who would happily see a poor performer in the national squad just to see "one of their own" there.

You don't care about the national side, you just want someone with an association to our club there to boast about.



Let's hope Capello manages to find a way to get it right, because this squad that you are agreeing with wholeheartedly has been nothing but a joke, just like you pathetic nonsense on this thread, but hey, at least you've been consistently full of sh'it.
---
Just because I don't think Downing should be anywhere near the national side doesn't mean I agree with the squad, only someone as thick as you would suggest such a thing.

When you start to provide a convincing argument as to why someone who has failed 90% of the time for England should have gone I might give you a bit more respect. Relying upon the fact he is left-footed, blabbering on about qualities he rarely shows for England and coming out with childish conspiracies does you absolutely no favours whatsoever.

Boromart Posted on 22/06/2010 11:13
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"who was playing there during our successful qualifying campaign?"
You can get away with square pegs in round holes against inferior opposition. Once you play a half decent side they will know how to exploit that.

sasboro1 Posted on 22/06/2010 11:19
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

you mean like how we hammered croatia?

why change something that worked in qualifiers? why brinmg in a player who has been off form for 2 seasons when something worked well in the qualifiers? for all we know downing will have struggled just like he had in his previous appearances for england. he had his chances. most players dont get that many games

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:21
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

You think Croatia are inferior to Algeria, Boromart?

Raoul_Duke Posted on 22/06/2010 11:25
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Petedreadnought, you've offered absolutely no evidence for your opinions at all, and there is barely an opinion in your reactionary drivel.

Has it occurred to you that the reason Boro fans rate Downing is because we've seen him play regularly, not because we blindly want him in the squad.

Or does it not occur to you that the players that have been picked have been just as poor for England as you claim Downing is - if you don't agree with the squad selection, who would you have chosen?

Ill_Be_There Posted on 22/06/2010 11:25
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Agree with Johnson but Downing is crap

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:29
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Have you watched Downing for England, Raoul?

There's no doubt Downing is a good player, he's shown at times to be top class, but not for England though and at the moment that is what matters.


grantus Posted on 22/06/2010 11:38
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Ah, now you resort to name calling, more evidence that you are incapable of forming an opinion of note.

What a waste of time this entire thing is.

petedreadnought your bile splattered hatred of anyone capable of actually playing on the left for our country's national football team is laughable.

What's the matter son, you got two right feet?

sas, I've admitted that Gerrard has had good performances on the left before, in this world cup, he's been an absolute disaster though, hasn't he?

Well, Joe Cole the saviour has not been selected - you must all be devastated.

Gerrard on the left, yet again.

Now both of the right wingers are out of the team in the must win game, more evidence that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Milner is back in - on the right this time.

Raoul_Duke Posted on 22/06/2010 11:39
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Yes, and I agree he has been poor on a number of occasions.

I don't agree he has been poor on every occasion however. Downing's main attribute is his crossing, everyone knows this so please don't accuse me of inventing attributes. We currently don't have a winger in the squad who can cross.

The big issue is, should Downing have been included in the squad? Despite his confidence problems, he has been just as good as Lennon, SWP, Milner or anyone else tried on the wing, barring probably Joe Cole.

You can say this is just my bias as a Boro fan, but can you tell me when any of the above players have performed well for England?

Therefore, as a left-footed player with one attribute that the rest of the squad don't possess, I believe he should have been in the squad.


petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Resorted to name-calling just as you did grantus, or is your memory that appalling you've forgotten what you wrote but hours ago?


petedreadnought your bile splattered hatred of anyone capable of actually playing on the left for our country's national football team is laughable.
---
I love the stupid crap you come out with at times.

[:D]

Downing is a poor performer for England. Yes, he's left-footed and in your world of stupendous ignorance that seems to mean he's a good player for England, the reality is he's poor.

You obviously care little about the national side if you think England should have taken more failures to South Africa.

Boromart Posted on 22/06/2010 11:51
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"you mean like how we hammered croatia?"
Croatia are a much better attacking side, but Algeria are arguably a better defensive side. They knew we were weak on the left and planned for it. For your Croatia game where it arguably worked I will raise you:-
- Algeria, and USA - WC2010
- recent friendlies against Spain and France....until Downing came on and we suddenly looked the better side and Germany where Downing was arguably the most comfortable and penatrative player on the pitch.
- WC2010 - several laboured unbalanced performances against Paraguay, T&T and Sweden (although a good Joe Cole goal) and Ecuador that's before we got to an ineffective performance against Portugal.

There are far more dodgy performances than good ones. Beckham has been the only consistent performer from any of our midfielders, Cole, Gerrard and Lampard have consistently flopped in big games.


"why change something that worked in qualifiers?"
because in qualifiers you are playing weaker sides. We have proven over the last 2 or 3 World cup and Euros that our midfield with the same old faces isn't good enough at this level. We had the same problems with players out of position and therefore a lack of cohesion and balance.


petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:51
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I don't think Downing has been poor on every occasion either Raoul, but his better performances were for an England B team and in friendlies.

In competitive games he's been dismal.

As for the players you've mentioned, they've all put in better performances during Capello's reign than Downing has.

Lennon, for example wasn't bad against Algeria, he was certainly one of our better performers I felt. From the right-side he provided a fair few smart crosses to Heskey, Lampard and Rooney, stretched the Algeria defenders at times and pulled them out of position, which was more than what some were prepared to do. If you honestly don't think Lennon can cross then I am really at a loss as to why you think this.

grantus Posted on 22/06/2010 11:54
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

2 out of Downing, Johnson and Young and I would have been happy.

Petedreadnought - you've completely lost the plot.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:56
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

I think Boromart's post has confirmed to me that he is possibly the most blinkered of all the Downing fans.



- recent friendlies against Spain and France....until Downing came on and we suddenly looked the better side and Germany where Downing was arguably the most comfortable and penatrative player on the pitch.
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He did have a good game against Germany, but your comments about the France and Spain games are about as detached from reality as they come.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 11:59
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Petedreadnought - you've completely lost the plot.
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I'll be worried when I start rambling on about media bias influencing people's opinions or blaming certain players not passing to others 'cos of the clubs they play for like a certain clueless idiot on here.

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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 22/06/2010 14:12
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

For me it is quite simple. When selecting a national side you should choose two players for every position, somebody who plays that position naturally, or more if you have that luxury. Stewart Downing, as the best naturally left-sided English midfielder, should be in the squad. If not Downing, then Adam Johnson, as the next best naturally left-sided player, should be there. Ashley Young is another, though he does drift in onto his right foot regularly so isn't too dissimilar to Joe Cole in that respect.

Gerrard can do a job on the left, as he proved during the qualifying campaign. So can Joe Cole. However, neither of these two are natural left-wingers, Gerrard certainly isn't and often looks uncomfortable out there. It's easy for the opposition defender to continuously force Gerrard or Cole down the outside onto their weaker foot, or inside back into the crowd. You shouldn't be taking players into a major tournament who can get by with 'doing a job' in a position, you should have every angle covered.

You need to have balance in the squad. It is no good to have no left-midfielders in a squad of 23.

Downing's form has been good for Villa, admittedly he has been outshone by James Milner but just because he isn't grabbing the headlines doesn't mean he's not producing. A lot of Villa fans seem to be won over by his performances for them.

Personally, i'd have taken Downing but i'm not suggesting it's a disgrace he hasn't been picked, Capello could have taken Johnson or Young for that position and that way he would have had a player who plays down the left in his squad, rather than giving himself and the team the handicap of not having a left-sided midfielder.

Capello playing Wright-Phillips down the left is an absolute joke when you consider that Downing, Johnson and Young are all sat on their backsides beside a pool.

Dibzzz Posted on 22/06/2010 14:15
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Shame Adam didn't make it really.

But if Cole can't even get a sniff, then he would have had no chance anyway.

grantus Posted on 22/06/2010 14:33
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

So, media biase doesn't exist then, it's just a now found figment of my imagination and of the Villa supporters that I know. Ok, right.

West ham doesn't get favourable press, ever. Of course they don't. neither do any London club.

Things I've seen during England games didn't actually happen and I must have been halucinating. Ok, right.

Actually, hold on....I think I see the light.

Young, Johnson and Downing would add absolutely nothing to this england squad, particularly as we as so strong on our left side - why couldn't I see that before, thank you for converting me. We don't need crosses from the left, we don't need players that can get past a player and keep control, we don't need players that can get to the left byline and pull the ball back, or offer alternative delivery from set pieces, a balanced team is a waste of time and ball retention is completely pointless when we can lose possession, but bunch it upfield when we win it back. The best bit is that we obviously don't need any defensive cover for when Ashley Cole goes on his forward forays, as it'sa better to have a right sided player on the left get repeatedly caught out of position to give the opposition more of a chance.

Thanks for the education.

That's the end of it for me, go ahead and have the last word on the matter.

sasboro1 Posted on 22/06/2010 14:36
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

"Stewart Downing, as the best naturally left-sided English midfielder, should be in the squad."

Pity downing hasnt been the best left sided midfielder in the last 2 seasons. or the best player who can play on the left. Just because he left footed doesnt mean he should go.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 14:40
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

So grantus, what you're saying is that the media are to blame for Downing being XXXXXX for England, not Downing himself?

You stick to your numpty conspiracies and moronic ignorance, I'll stick to the facts.

grantus Posted on 22/06/2010 14:44
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

No - I'm saying that Downing is an underrated player, mainly due to the picture the southern media paint of him, the knowledgable Boro supporters rate him and now the Villa support are rating him too.

As for solutions for the left - it's not all about Downing, it's about players that can actually play in that position.

But like I said, I now know that taking players that can play in each position is not important, thanks for that.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 14:45
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

You're wasting your time, sas. They seem to think that because Downing is left-footed he's the solution to al of England's problems despite questions being asked previously and he's not answered them.

I guess if replacing dross with dross keeps grantus happy then fair enough, I don't see the logic in it myself.

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 14:46
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

That's the most sensible thing you've posted, grantus.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 22/06/2010 14:47
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

'And whatever people think of Downing, there really is no point in sticking Crouch up front without a Downing or similar player to provide crosses. Lennon and SWP certainly aren't going to do that.'

More rubbish. Downing's crossing has produced how many goals in the last 2 or 3 seasons?

petedreadnought Posted on 22/06/2010 14:51
Leaving Out Downing and Johnson...

Don't baffle them with facts, Corcaigh. He has a left foot and that's all that matters.