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kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 09/06/2010 13:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Making a mockery of Nick Cleggs comments at the weekend:

"It is important that people understand that fiscal retrenchment does not mean a repeat of the 1980s. We're going to do this differently,"

Oh dear Mr Clegg looks like the boy George has other ideas!


Link: food from the babies mouths?

ridsdale Posted on 09/06/2010 13:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The lib-dem voters on here must be very proud of their new place in power.


What rankles are the denials during the election. How cutting a few quangos and cutting the flab and waste out would account for most savings.

This is the tip of poison arrow.

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 13:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

How can we jusitify spending £3 billion a year in "aid" when we cannot even look after the poorest in our own country?

Free school meals for every child should be a right, looking after children and giving them the best start has to be one of the highest priorities.

Forget spunnking billions on nuclear weapons and a large scale military.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 13:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

So they're scrapping something which Labour never implemented anyway?

Nice swing, Mr Balls. Good reporting.

captain5 Posted on 09/06/2010 13:59
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

All the parties were lax in terms of the details of what they'd do if they got into power.

Even the government of the time who knew all the figures at the time, didn't tell the whole truth.

Just like to point out I don't blame any of them for doing that. They all remember Roy Jenkins losing an election like that.


onion_budgie Posted on 09/06/2010 14:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Maybe if child labour was re-introduced schoolkids could afford to dine in style. And avoid obesity, diabetes et al, thereby reducing the overwhelming burden on the spend-intensive NHS.

Diasboro_Dan Posted on 09/06/2010 14:11
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"Free school meals for every child should be a right,"

Seriously, when did this become a 'cause celebre'? Why should anything be free to those can afford it?

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 14:47
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

When you mean poor do you mean having top of the range LCD, blackberry phones, xbox live for kids, Sky TV? How can poor people afford such things??

edit: if you are very poor should you be allowed to have kids?

TheBoy007 Posted on 09/06/2010 14:51
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Osborne will be loving this. Sticking the knife into the poor, w@nker.

jam69 Posted on 09/06/2010 14:53
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

we are all in it together dont forget,except for those with mummy and daddies millions to fall back on

borobadge Posted on 09/06/2010 15:22
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

ohhhh come on, the eton boys will know whats best for us all....

its in the breeding, the inheritance and the education.

flyermetothemoon Posted on 09/06/2010 15:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Welcome to the far left commie thread.

Lets just tax the rich to the hilt so they XXXXXX off abroard and pay taxes elsewhere.

You commies will all be happy and the rest of us will just have to pay more in taxes to fill the black hole.


Scrote Posted on 09/06/2010 15:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"Lets just tax the rich to the hilt so they XXXXXX off abroard and pay taxes elsewhere."

surely you meant to say "Lets just tax the rich to the hilt so they XXXXXX off abroard and DON'T pay taxes there either but still expect to be covered by services such as binmen, road-repairs, child benefits etc."

if they don't pay taxes anyway they can XXXXXX off wherever they want with no right of return - to55ers the lot of 'em

flyermetothemoon Posted on 09/06/2010 15:52
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Thats right they have never spent a penny in this country.[?]

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 09/06/2010 16:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

In a fair and democtratic society the pain should be felt equally by all, regardless of social standing.

Free school meals will still be available to those who are out of work, but this move seems to be aimed at cutting out those who are on lower incomes.

TheBoy007 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:06
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The thing is Ingbar there is plenty of people in this country who could pay more and it would barely affect their lifestyle. They certainly wouldn't be out on the street. You can't hit poorly paid people who are already on the breadline. A pay cut for someone on the breadline could be tragic, for someone with a couple of million in the bank it would be a drop in the ocean.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:08
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The_263 quote "Should poor people be allowed to have children"?

What happens if a couple has children whilst working & then they lose their jobs?

Should people with very low I.Q's be allowed to have oxygen?

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 16:09
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Diasboro_Dan - the reason free school meals should be given to all children is so that we can ensure that children are being fed properly.

Let's face it there are tens of millions of poorer children in the state school system. So some middle class familys save a few bob too? So what? It's the care of the child that should be the primary focus.

How much do you think it would cost to feed every child in state education in this country?

Probably about a tenth of the cost of replacing our kill everyone on earth nuclear annihilation program.

Surely it's simple common sense?

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:13
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I just love to get a nibble

Diasboro_Dan Posted on 09/06/2010 16:13
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Free school meals for the rich, when there's a shortage of funds, doesn't sound like any sort of sense.

Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 16:15
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

How can we jusitify spending £3 billion a year in "aid" when we cannot even look after the poorest in our own country?

Because the poorest in our own country are still one of the richest people in the world.

Someone on your basic job seekers allowance and no other benefits is in the top 15% on a rich list of everyone in the world.

In this country, nobody dies of starvation, nobody has to turn to crime or prostitution, you can walk down most streets in most towns and cities without seriously fearing for your life, if you can't work or can't find work you're assisted by the state and anybody can get an education reasonably easy.

The above is what I remind people of when they say they are so ashamed of this country or say the country is 'going to the dogs'. How many countries can say the same?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 09/06/2010 16:18
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

" there is plenty of people in this country who could pay more"

Of course there is, but no one should be penalised more than anyone else, rich or poor.

Taxation is means linked and everyone should contribute proportionately the same.

GtBB Posted on 09/06/2010 16:25
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Hercules, your words betray a lack of understanding regarding 'aid'. Basically, we use overseas aid as a weapon. Send our surplus grain to Africa so, for a while, the locals are getting free bread. The local farmers go bankrupt and sell their land to western interests at a bargain price.

Capitalism, eh? The scamps.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:29
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The_263 you clearly have a maximum I.Q. of 70 & are incapable of rational thought.

As a human being capable of empathy I feel sorry for you & hope you can find fulfillment in your life despite your obvious handicap. [:P]

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 16:29
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Diasboro_Dan - rich children don't and never have gone to state schools.


Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 16:31
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I understand it can have that effect in certain circumstances (European and International Business Studies, Year 2 BA Business Studies) but aid does more good than harm.

Besides, my point wasn't about the intention or effect of the aid. My point was about the sentiment of disregarding those who can't afford to eat, can't get an education and have to turn to crime and prostitution, in order to keep our 'poor' in iPod's and Adidas trainers.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 16:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I'll start the comeback:
"As a human being capable of apathy..."

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Not much of a comeback. You're so apathetic you just felt you HAD to respond to a post that wasn't aimed at you [:P]

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 16:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Touché. [^]

I just thought it would have been funny if he had written:

"As a human being capable of apathy, I don't care."

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Yes, that would of been a better comeback.

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 16:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Hercules - we're not talking about giving away laptops, trainers or any luxury goods. We are talking about feeding the children of THIS country.


Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 16:45
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I'm unaware of children in this country starving. Perhaps you could show me an instance where parents can't afford to feed their children?

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 16:47
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

This thread is getting a little off topic.

From the article:

"Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, said that he was scrapping plans by Ed Balls, his predecessor, to extend free school meals from next term to 500,000 of the very lowest paid."

"Children whose parents are on income support or jobseeker’s allowance will continue to be eligible."

So, Labour 'planned' to extend free school meals to another 500,000 kids. Such altruism. How do we know they would have implemented it? They may have also 'planned' to give everbody in the UK a £1000 Christmas box.

So the big bad Tories get blamed for stopping something which bottomless walleted Labour had never given anyway.

Like I said, great reporting.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 16:47
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

How do the poor, stop being poor?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 16:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Doesn't the majority of our overseas aid still go in the form of arms supplies?

moxxey Posted on 09/06/2010 16:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"When you mean poor do you mean having top of the range LCD, blackberry phones, xbox live for kids, Sky TV? How can poor people afford such things??"

Yep, it's odd how we define "poor" in 2010. Poor a few decades ago is very different from poor these days.

We have this lady that comes around a couple of hours a week and helps my mum do odd jobs and so on. Can't really justify her, but her sons are so scary that we just keep her out of fear...!

However, go around her house and her husband has been on disability benefits since 1980 (and there's NOTHING wrong with him!), her sons are dodgy builders who do work strictly for cash and go around buying everything in cash and her family has a big 55" LCD, Sky HD, always have a new-ish car etc etc.

Yet....these guys are classed as "poor" and live in a really dodgy area.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Be careful Zieg - your powerful feeling of empathy is exposing a low IQ!

btw; people that lose their jobs and are parents should be more responsible - we don't live in the free-loving 60's anymore and we are not forced to follow the beliefs of catholicism .... [:X]

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 16:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Yes Moxxey I'm sure that's the norm. Everyone the government deems to be poor in this country are actually living in the lap of luxury. How foolish of them not to of asked your opinion first especially with your extensive knowledge of physical & mental illness when judging disability.

Lol @ the_263 if you think the poor are having kids endlessly you've clearly read too many Daily Mail headlines. As for my I.Q. or lack of it I think I'll let others be the judge of that...

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 16:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Hercules - you only have to look at children these days to see that an awful lot of parents do not know how to feed children properly.

There are thousands of studies that show eating healthier improves all aspects of school life. More energy, better memory, better concentration levels and less disruptive behavior.

I really think it's a no brainer in terms of investing in the furture of the children of this country.

The arguments against it are frivolous and bordering on pathetic.

Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 17:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

You can throw all the money you want at feeding kids healtheir food but if the parents can't be arsed learning about healthy lifestyles and how to cook healthy food its pointless because they'll still take your extra cash and blow it all at McDonalds or KFC.

Parents have the means to feed their children properly. Now all they need is the inclination.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 17:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

So you are saying teaching children how to make Ice-cream in H.E. isn't the way forward?

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy Posted on 09/06/2010 17:06
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

johnny what are you saying?.

If one man has a hundred pounds and another has a million do you take 90 pounds from both or 10 from the poor man and 170 from the rich one.

In the first instance, the poor man is left with almost nothing and the rich man hardly feels anything.

In the second case, the poor man loses a noticeable amount of cash, but isn't crippled and the rich man hardly feels a thing.

The 2 examples above show why many people (rich and small) despise Tories for having these views on tax.

Muttley Posted on 09/06/2010 17:07
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

So, just to get back to the FACTS. This is not a cut at all.

A cut would mean taking something that was previously given. This was never given, so can't be taken away (or cut, if you prefer). Did any of you read beyond the headline?

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 17:08
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I thought the Labour view was tax the rich at a higher percentage?

edit--
This is what John said :"Taxation is means linked and everyone should contribute proportionately the same."

You have then called him a tosser, and described something different to what he was saying, then argued against him, with what he was for...

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:09
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Parents who have no knowledge about eating healthily or in your words "can't be arsed" is exactly why the state decided to feed the country's children to make sure they had at least one nutritional meal a day. Whether school dinners are nutritional enough is another matter but the principle was a good one.

Muttley Posted on 09/06/2010 17:12
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Sorry if parents can afford to feed their kids properly and don't it's got nowt to do with Big Nanny. Their kids, their responsibility.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 09/06/2010 17:15
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I've got to agree with Ouroboros.

This isn't a cut, its a refusal to extend benefits to people who are working.

From reading that article there obviously is a case to extent the right (to some of the 500,000), but while cuts are happening elsewhere and as there's no money left, its pretty hard to justify an increase in benefits.

Genghis_Khan Posted on 09/06/2010 17:16
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The title is misleading... those on benefits i.e. the poorest will still received free food. Why should working people get free food for their kids?

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:20
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Muttley if we look after the country's children they do better at school, get better jobs, become law abiding tax paying citizens & ultimately pay for our pensions & public services. It's shortsighted not to look after them even if their parents can't/won't.

Genghis I think the question needs asking "How can people who are working still be poor"? Maybe it's time employers paid their employees higher wages so that working people weren't in a situation where they needed to claim working tax credits or help with school meals from the state.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 17:22
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

How do you change the attitude of the children, saying things like "why do I need to know this rubbish?"

i'll delete that last line, it wasn't needed.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 17:25
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'Why should working people get free food for their kids?'

I think it's because they could be struggling to feed them adequately on the ridiculously low minimum wage that's being paid in the UK.


BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy Posted on 09/06/2010 17:28
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

using the 'nanny state' argument we should get rid of schools (parents should educate their own kids), police (people should be allowed to deal with their own protection), etc, etc.

The whole point of government is to do what's best for the majority whilst respecting the individual's rights.

No about keeping out of everyone's business.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:28
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Exactly Corcaigh. The government & media have baffled people with smoke & mirrors so they don't stop & ask the question "hang on why are working people still too poor to feed their kids".

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 17:31
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

If people would struggle to support a child, why are they having them?

Genghis_Khan Posted on 09/06/2010 17:32
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"ridiculously low minimum wage that's being paid in the UK."

It's much higher than the min wage in Usa and most other countries... people should not have children if they're not in a situation to feed them. Somebody earning £300 a week can feed their children, they may not be able to buy the latest nike trainers or have a nice car.

This is the culture we need to change, people living beyond their means.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:34
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Are you suggesting reproduction should just be the preserve of the well off? I don't think even Tebbitt would of said that out loud.

Ghengis Britain has one of the highest cost of living ratings on the planet. Americans may earn less but their products cost much less too.

Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 17:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Perhaps that's a good idea zelig.

Something has to be done to cap population growth, both in the UK and worldwide.

Muttley Posted on 09/06/2010 17:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

As a fully paid up bed wetting liberal, can I just say I agree with Mr Kahn.

Responsibility for your own and opportunity for all should be a fair maxim.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 09/06/2010 17:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I think a dog isn't just for christmas.

I have sympathy for people that lose their jobs, and have kids. They need support. The future is never certain.

However I think it is irresponsible to have children, if you cannot put their needs before your own.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Proclaimed expert on mental illness ridiculing someone's IQ. Sounds like the familiar voice of a highly judgemental hypocritical snobby gucci-socialist.

Not_Smog Posted on 09/06/2010 17:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Hercules - we're not talking about handing money over. We're talking about all children being fed on site in state schools and there being no difference between the haves and the have nots.

We're talking about balanced, healthy food that will not only give them a healthy meal but also help children to enjoy foods that are not 90% saturated fat or covered in sugar.

In terms of our priorities as a nation moving forward I think the investment is tiny and the benifits massive.

Or perhaps we should spend the money on 3 new state of the art aircraft carriers and bomb the sh1t out of some more brown people.

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 17:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

There are people who have lots of kids who fall on hard times , i have no problem with them getting help , but why do people who do not and have no intention of working feel the need to have 4 or 5 kids ?

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy Posted on 09/06/2010 17:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Z2

Why do you bother arguing with these thick/selfish/both tossers.

You've won the argument

Hercules Posted on 09/06/2010 17:45
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I think you'll find my point was about foreign aid. Nothing to do with school meals.

It was in response to your question about how we justify £3bn in aid when we can't even look after the poorest in our own country.

We can. You can't give me an example of UK parents being so poor they can't feed their children, who die of starvation. I can give you billions of examples of foreign children in such circumstances. Thats how we justify giving away £3bn in aid.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 17:45
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'Responsibility for your own and opportunity for all should be a fair maxim.'

I don't know of anybody that would disagree. It's how you define 'own' and 'opportunity' where the differences may occur.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:46
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

What about mortgaged to the hilt proud parents that cannot afford expensive nutrious food for their kids and believe in values that align with independence and non reliance on state handouts?

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:47
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Can we stop talking about the irresponsible few who are having children without any care for their future welfare as if they are the norm. Yes we've all heard about the mother who gets £20k+ a year from the state & lives in a 6 bedroomed council house but she is not the norm.

The vast majority of people in this country understand that starting a family is a big responsibility. If after starting a family one or both of them lose their job or their hours are cut & need assistance then we as a country should help them.

It's in the right wing media's interest to get people to turn on each other because of the perception that the country is full of irresponsible scroungers who are bleeding this country dry but the fact is the cost of living in Britain is too high & employers are not paying their employees enough to cope with this high cost of living.

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy I take your point. I think I must of been a missionary in a past life [:P]

Scrote Posted on 09/06/2010 17:48
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"In a fair and democtratic society the pain should be felt equally by all, regardless of social standing."

what does that even mean?

are you seriously suggesting that corporate responsibility should be replaced with a collective sigh before we pick up the pieces again?

if sharing is the order of the day where was my bonus when the banks were booming and the nation was having a collective orgy of debt-creation?

or is it only "fair and democratic" to share when the bills need paying...

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 17:51
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'The vast majority of people in this country understand that starting a family is a big responsibility.'

Spot on. Also the vast majority want to contribute to society through work.


Johnny_Thunder Posted on 09/06/2010 17:57
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Can't be arsed to read another one of these threads but just curious as to what Maggie has been blamed for in this one?

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 17:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Well said Scrote.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

People also forget (or perhaps not aware) that the standard of living in the UK has improved remarkably for everyone over the past few decades. I recall 30 odd years ago there were lots of families on Teesside (catholic descent) that had 13+ kids living in a 3 bed semi council house. OK they received free meals (rightly so) but life was tough. In fact, life is a lot easier for the "poor" these days than it was 30 odd years ago. Life has improved enourmously for the poorer families.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 18:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Your nose can only grow so far on one thread.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:13
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I don't know why you've even bothered to type that drivel the_263 & I certainly can't be bothered having the 'all poverty is relative' argument with you. Strange that you didn't decide to say "well at least children aren't forced down mines or up chimneys anymore" just to top off you irrelevant post.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:23
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

They'll always be poverty and it will never be completely eradicated. But refusing to look at relative improvements in living standards is burying one's head! Keep being selective!

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:28
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Have you got any more clichés you'd like to share with us? No one is forgetting how bad the bad old days were like but it has nothing to do with this thread.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 09/06/2010 18:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"In a fair and democtratic society the pain should be felt equally by all, regardless of social standing."

'what does that even mean?'

I think the statement is pretty transparent on reflection.

Everyone should feel the pain to some extent and there should be no exclsuion based on relative wealth, or otherwise.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"In a fair and democtratic society the success should be felt equally by all, regardless of social standing."

When that statement becomes reality the poorest will be happy to feel the pain to some extent when the bad times come.

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 18:40
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Would it be churlish to point out that the "rich" (for which some people have a strange definition on here) already pay for the "poor" today.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 09/06/2010 18:42
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Its all relative of course, what are people defining as 'rich'?

Those who pay a higher rate of tax?

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 18:43
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I have paid tax all my working life to help the poor , just realised after all this time i,m rich .

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 18:46
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I would define a higher rate taxpayer as only "above average". Comfortably off from about 60k to 100k. Well off 100k to 250k. Rich more than 250k.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 18:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

You people are crazy. No one is accusing you of being rich or not pulling your weight within society. The truth is 1% of the country's population are worth more than the bottom 95% of the country's population combined. They are the ones who have profited from this country's good times & they must now pay for the bad times.

The media spends all its time telling the 95% that they are the problem, turning everyone against each other so that they never stop & ask the question "hang on, what are the top 1% doing to help the situation"?

We live in a country where billionaires pay less personal tax than the cleaners they employ & I doubt anyone on here would say that was fair.

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 19:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Don,t forget our friends the bankers etc have a lot to answer for , but on the other hand we need to get rid of this attitude that we are entitled to help without trying to help ourselves .

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 19:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'But refusing to look at relative improvements in living standards is burying one's head!'

Assuming that has only happened in the last 30 years is the error. Living standards have been improving since man first walked the planet.

susy Posted on 09/06/2010 19:06
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I havnt read all of this thread cos its SOOOO long. The thing I keep thinking is that many of our poorest dont no how to cook so the end up buying ready meals or takeaways. This is extremely expensive and unhealthy way of living.


When was is that we stopped passing on cooking skills to our children? Is it when all women were made to be equal (falls off chair laughing, we are not equal, we are different and always will be, get used to it and both sexes make the most of it) ?

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:07
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

We need to stop attacking each other & start asking some real questions of the rich. We need to get past this attitude that everyone who is unemployed has no interest in finding work or that every single mother only had children just to get a council house or to claim more benefits. These are right wing media myths which bear no resemblance to the facts. Yes there are rare examples of it but that's like saying all Lorry drivers kill prostitutes or all taxi drivers are gun toting maniacs.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 19:12
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Rare examples of it?!?! Are you for fúcking real??? Go and walk the streets and have a look , man.

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 19:15
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Must admit " rare examples of it " is stretching the truth a bit , to say the least .

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:16
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

When it happens it will happen in clumps so I'm sure if you visit certain estates it will seem like everyone is doing it but the U.K. is a big place & overall it is rare.

The rare examples of it comment relates to single mums having children to get a council house or more benefits.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 19:18
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Zelig, if I may ask, where do you live and how old are you?

jam69 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:18
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

the richest 2% own over 90% of wealth in this country,many (like ashcroft) pay no taxes.

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 19:18
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

No just visit stockton and boro town centres

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 09/06/2010 19:23
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"We need to get past this attitude that everyone who is unemployed has no interest in finding work"

Me thinks someone has had a fairly sheltered existence!

At least out local recently ousted MP's are feeling the pain as well.


Link: Why am I not surprised?

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:27
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I live in Middlesbrough (have lived on different estates both good & bad). I accept that certain parts of the North East have a high proportion of the social issues we're talking about but like I said the U.K. is a big place & these social issues are rare overall.

Having lived in Middlesbrough town center, Grove Hill & Hemlington I could hardly be accused of having lived a sheltered life but rather than blaming the rape victim for wearing a short skirt maybe we should look at how little investment there's been in the region over many decades. I would say the social issues we are now seeing are simply the chickens coming home to roost.

Senor_Chester Posted on 09/06/2010 19:28
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Zeilg you are completely out of touch mate.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 19:31
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Oh, BóLLOCKS!!! I'm sick of fúcking hearing how 1% have most of the wealth!! So fúck? I'll tell you what that made me want when I was younger, it made me want some of it.

It didn't make me wallow around in some sink estate, blaming Tory/Labour/Liberal/Monster fúcking raving loony party for my lot in life, and popping out worthless copies of myself with any passing 16 Stone munter that I could rattle my todger into, then whining that my giro wasn't enough to cover this week's white lightning and bootleg baccy.

I consider myself pretty well off, but only because I took advantage of my education and all opportunities that were offered to me. I'm certainly not ashamed of that. I've worked in countries where people know the REAL meaning of poverty, but would put a week's worth of food on the table to make you welcome.

There are people in this country who disgust me, and they are certainly not rarities.

jam69 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

i too have worked all my life,though i dont think money is the be all and end all,i also dont think its fair that the very richest pay no tax.dont lie awake at night worring just think its a tadge unfair.
someone like ashcroft who lied to avoid paying 12 million in taxes that could have went to nhs,schools etc helps to buy the election for his rich chums

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Ouroboros you have clearly been sold on the American/British dream that if you work hard & do the right thing you can one day reach the top table. Unfortunately the rich don't share their real wealth/power so that will never happen leaving you under the table growling at others to defend the meager scraps that drop to you from the top table.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 19:48
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Oh, I do alright thank you Zelig. Funnily enough, where I work, 99% of the people have the same dream. And it isn't USA or Britain.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 19:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Oh, and by the way, yes I do pay tax in Britain. A quite substantial amount.

levendale Posted on 09/06/2010 19:50
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Stop now zelig , you are sounding silly now .

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:55
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I'm sure you do fine Ouroboros & I'm happy for you but it's all relative. There is still a ceiling you can never get past.

Levendale I have said my rarity comment was about single mums having children just to get council houses & more benefits. Some on here have taken it to mean unemployed people which isn't what I meant.

moxxey Posted on 09/06/2010 19:56
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"Yes Moxxey I'm sure that's the norm. Everyone the government deems to be poor in this country are actually living in the lap of luxury. How foolish of them not to of asked your opinion first especially with your extensive knowledge of physical & mental illness when judging disability."

Yeah apologies for whining about people who are basically stealing from the State. It's great you favour their side than ours.

It's pretty f**king easy to fool the system in to thinking you have a really dodgy back, thus can't work (requiring benefits), but - when you really know these people - they put it on for the doctors and similar people who asses them.

There are a LOT of people out there who do anything and everything to con the system. Of course, there are a lot of "poor" people too, but "poor" to the State is when you primarily have to live of benefits, whether this is legit or not.

In my example, this family was definitely not legit. Trust my judgement or not (you don't know them), but they were sponging and sponging hard.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 19:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I believe that the family you're talking about are conning the system (I'll take your word for it) but I'm saying they are not the norm no matter what the Daily Mail says.

moxxey Posted on 09/06/2010 20:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"We need to get past this attitude that everyone who is unemployed has no interest in finding work"

In the same way you need to realise there are plenty of people who do NOT want to work, too.

There was a thing on Peterborough a few months ago where they give unemployed kids under 25 the opportunity to take the jobs that the Polish people were doing. They were given jobs on a plate.

All the British kids gave up, some never even went to the job, others phoned in "ill" and so on.

Another example in the same town where the Peterborough kids where complaining that all the Poles had taken their jobs and, when they were told it was manual work on farms, long hours for £7/hours, they all said "not bothering with that mate, I'll stay on the dole!".

There are a lot of these people in the UK. Where they think they think it's better to pick up benefits than do the tough manual labour that our great grand parents used to consider the norm, many years ago!

Not now.

jam69 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:01
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

so moxxey this woman who comes round and cleans for your mam is it cash in hand or taxed?cant believe your to scared to get rid of her if you dont need her

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Who says I have a ceiling, or want to get past a ceiling? I have my own objectives in life and my own sense of worth. I do not aspire to being a Lord or to rub shoulders with Royalty.

The point is, anybody can do better if they look outwards instead of inwards. Too many people have a feeling of entitlement.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:09
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I am not denying the problems but I am saying the social issues you're referring to are simply the chickens coming home to roost after years of underinvestment.

My argument earlier for making sure every child gets at least one nutritional meal a day is so that they do better at school, get better jobs & become useful law abiding citizens of Britain in the future and that not helping them now would be shortsighted & would cause society future problems.

Ouroboros I believe that the majority of people understand the need to find meaningful work & become a useful member of society. I think there is a minority who have given up for various reasons & this minority is hyped up by the media in order for people to blame all unemployed people & stop people asking tough questions of the rich who have made a lot of money during this country's good times but have suddenly gone very quiet when the bills have arrived.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:22
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

They aren't a minority, there's no point arguing further about that. This last government has created a 'why should I work' welfare state tit-fed generation.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:29
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"We need to stop attacking each other"

You seem to be doing all the attacking kidda, Z2. You also seem to be losing the plot.

Life is hard and what you put in is what you get out. I was brought up in relative poverty on a Middlesbrough council estate and I remember vividly the feeling of being deprived. Looking through other peoples' windows to watch MoTD, sharing a tiny bedroom containing 2 bunk beds with 3 other family members and the bad feeling in the home when Dad lost his low paid job. I recall people at school being extremely poor - holes in shoes, unwashed and unhappy.

I know also what's like to go without. My mates sporting a new bikes that my parents couldn't afford. Holidays were an alien concept.

That experience hardened me and made what I am today: relatively succeessful. Had I not experienced poverty first hand and had experienced a dependence culture would have taken the hunger off my drive to succeed.

Helping the needy is different from avoiding an over-reliance culture.


Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Ditto, the_263. Central Middlesbrough (now long gone), Berwick Hills & Park End for me. People were hard then because they had to be, not the preening little prícks that you see swaggering about in gangs of 15 now.

It engendered in me a burning desire to do better for myself and my future family.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

There are 38 million people of working age in Britain & out of that 2 million have been unemployed for over 12 months. That sounds like a minority to me. Not saying their isn't a problem, just saying this minority is being hyped up the media to stop people asking more important questions.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:40
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Park End in the 70's. Life was hard. Actually today's kids don't realise that fruit such as oranges were scarce and really expensive - I used to receive an orange once a year at Christmas.

Watched a documentary about all the top universities in the US - all the top performers were from relatively poor countries (Chinese, other parts of Asia) who were being sponsered. You need to ceate some degree of hunger to create a drive.


Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:42
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

You didn't say how old you are, Zelig2. Or if you're male or female.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:43
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

You must have an exclusive on moving those goal posts.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Why would I? Changing the goalposts? I was replying to Ouroboros post.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:45
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Well, it may temper responses to your posts.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:46
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Lol it's ok you can say whatever you like.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:46
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

If you want that kind of soapbox suggest you go to somewhere like India where there is genuine poverty and deep - very deep - social issues. Try broadening that reading material.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:48
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

All poverty is relative.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

You must have an exclusive on the use of relative as well. You are either very young boy or a woman [:D]

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:49
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I just would just like to know. Why don't you want to say? I wouldn't rant and swear at a child face to face, I wouldn't do it on a message board if I knew not to.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:52
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Lol why would you want to swear at anyone? After your comment maybe I should ask your age.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:53
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Ouroboros, where do you live now as a Middlesrough graduate?

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 20:56
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Currently working in Azerbaijan, thinking shortly of moving to Kazakhstan or Russia. Senior Instrument tech, served my time at ICI (RIP). Home every 3 months, and it depresses me every time I come back.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 20:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Maybe you could get involved in some community projects whenever you come back to help. Just a thought. [:P]

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Thank you, but I am already involved in community projects for people who REALLY need them and actually appreciate them.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:02
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Travel the world (apart from South America). I was in Astana earlier this year - Kazak is a strange place like - extremely corrupt -brown bags are a must to do any deals.

I'd love to move out of the country but kids are an awkward age. May be a retirement place in Malaysia or Thailand in a couple of years.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:05
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Good for you. Shame more people don't get involved. Kids always need good role models to look up to & learn that working hard can be beneficial to them.

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 21:07
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

It's awfully hard to generalize about unemploymennt and disability. They're emotive subjects primarily because for many, many people being unemployed or disabled is a terrible place to be. Equally, you only have to walk around one of many sink estates to realize that something needs to be done differently.

I'm also confused about the argument that the rich (again, whatever that is) need to pay more. How much more do people want taxes to rise for these people?


Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:07
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

OOOOOps. Maybe too much information.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:14
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Kazak is an unsustainable economy. 5% of the population (connected to governments, oi, gas and mining) are extremely wealthy whereas 95% are earning an average of ~$500 USD per month. It isn't exactly cheap either. In some cases cleaners earn more than university profs. Once the novelty of being emancipated by the Russians wears thin there'll be an uprising.

edit: Z2 I used to do some educational laison stuff but the teachers and kids were totally indifferent. Ironically, I do believe that things are actually more difficult these days to get started out in life - primarily as there's a distinct lack of jobs/opportunities and even those with sound qualifications and lucky enough to get a job earn a pittance due to high volume:demand for jobs. In saying, the world is a bigger place these days whereas 20-30 years ago jobs could be found, albeit with difficulty, locally.

Zelig2 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:17
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I have never said there isn't a problem in some sink estates but they are still the minority within society & it is in the media's interest to pretend this minority is the majority. Unemployment is the new pedophilia it seems within the media.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:20
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

There won't be an uprising unless there is a viable opposition with sufficient funding. Azerbaijan went through a similar thing in 2005/6, but the opposition were poorly prepared and the Government ruthlessly put down the uprising.

There was a BBC "My World" programme about it. They took heart from the earlier uprising in Georgia, but the Georgian opposition were much more organised and financed.

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:25
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Zelig - a minority maybe, but it's semantics. It's still a huge number. There are a hard core who would prefer to remain unemployed even if there was full employment.

So, I reckon you're a girl, maybe early 20's.

Yes?

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:29
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Scrote - you had your bonus when the banks were making money.

Corporation taxes paid by the big banks, plus the income tax and VAT generated by their employees has been an incredibly significant contributor to the public purse over the period 98-2008.

For instance, HSBC paid £25.3bn in tax from 2003 to 2009 inclusive. If we assume the other banks collectively contributed twice as much (not a huge stretch and probably underestimating it) then in just 7 years the banks brought in £75bn in taxes for the UK.

How much tax is paid by employees? Assume there are 500,000 financial services employees on an average £25k per year. At a blended rate of 27% to take into account income tax and NI it gives £3.375bn per annum revenue.

Over the 7 year period the total is £100bn.

And people think the rescuing the banking system was stupid and has forced the country into debt?

It wasn't stupid, it was absolutely necessary because of the contribution.

So in answer to your point about sharing in the bonus when the banks were bomming - you've had it in spades but Labour XXXXXXed it up the wall.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:29
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

And there'll be no opposition if a president for life policy is introduced - as is a concept being considered. Population of Kazak is small -15M - so perhaps Russia might step back in. People will just move out. Women there were out of this world - they'd love to live in a schit-hole poverty-stricken place like England!

degsyspesh Posted on 09/06/2010 21:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

sub171 - I looked this up the other day, pre-recession the financial services sector contributed £60Bn/year in taxes - excluding income tax from it's employees.

The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:36
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Ouroboros: you must be part of the Middlesbrough Mafia? I hear they're all in Azer!!

Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Same as Azer, mate. Either beautiful Russian blondes or beautiful dusky dark-haired girls. All look after themselves too. Not a muffin top to be seen.


The_263 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:40
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Keep away from those women!!


Ouroboros Posted on 09/06/2010 21:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

[;)]

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:43
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Thanks Degsy.

I couldn't be bothered trawling through the accounts for all the banks, so interesting to know.

Where did you find it btw? And do you work in financial services?

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"And people think the rescuing the banking system was stupid and has forced the country into debt?

It wasn't stupid, it was absolutely necessary because of the contribution."

No. It was absolutely stupid.

The cost of bailing out the banks was so massive, at the rates you're quoting it could take decades for that debt to be repaid.

They should have been allowed to fail gracefully, Northern Rock first, to scare the other greedy XXXXXXs into sorting themselves out.

Note that the US government allowed several banks to fail.

And if the government needed to stimulate the economy, they could have simply cancelled income tax for a year for all but the super rich. It would have cost about the same.

Bank bailouts were the government (or establishment if you prefer) looking after the business interests of its friends and nothing more.

As for cutting school meals. How can you cut what people have never had? This was planned spending, and would have doubtless been dropped whoever was in power.

If after 12 years of Labour, the poor still don't have school meals, you can hardly blame Cameron.

degsyspesh Posted on 09/06/2010 21:53
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

No not financial services - construction (so that's me f'ked...!!)

I just googled it the other day as it struck me that while everyone is slagging the bankers off now (obviously with justification) they have all been perfectly happy to accept the benefits of the bankers successes over the previous decades.

Basically I was interested to understand what the financial sector had contributed to the economy in comparison to the bail out costs.

Without sticking up for the financial sector, all they do is gamble and for all the success they had, as any gambler knows - eventually your luck runs out.


Link: £67Bn

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 21:54
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

No br - it was crucial.

If degsy's numbers are accurate, then over 5 years they will contribute £300bn to the economy, plus the significant contibutions from the employees.

How much has the government spent on bailing out the banks to date? It's £258.55bn, with £60bn of that the respective holdings in RBS and Lloyds.

I repeat - the bank bailout was absolutely necessary for the future wellbeing of the nation. Removing £60bn plus of tax revenue per year for ever is something that could not have happened.

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:00
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

subbuteo_171 you must be related to Keynes.

I suggest the next time you have a massive credit card debt, you go and borrow as much money to pay it off as you can.

Then a year or two after that, you can borrow again, and so on.

And eventually, when you're paying 50% interest on your debt you'll come to the realisation, that borrowing to pay debt is not a very sensible idea since eventually the lenders will extract ever spare penny you have.

Do you really think that if the Northern Rock had gone under, some other bank wouldn't simply have absorbed it's assets?

I'm not saying they should have been allowed to collapse without fiscal management.

I'm saying that if someone is moronically stupid enough to get themselves in a heap of trouble, they shouldn't be allowed to continue running the company.

degsyspesh Posted on 09/06/2010 22:08
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

It is an indesputable fact that if the banks had not been bailed out the country would have entered a depression which would have made the current economic climate look like a f'king gold rush.

The entire country works on an availability of credit - business can not function without it, nothing would happen and quite literally the country would have ground to a halt.

Anyone who thinks that bailing out the banks was not the right thing to do clearly does not understand the implications of a collapsed banking sector.

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:16
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

It wasn't just Northern Rock - it was other banks.

And if all other banks had gone under, how would you expect this country to fund the £60bn plus hole per year in tax revenue?

That's right, through tax rises and spending cuts.


SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 22:18
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Where did you get 280+bn from. The Government Treasury forecasts are that the long term cost of the bailout is likely to range from 20-45bn depending on the value of the stakes in HBOS and Lloyds TSB. All the really big numbers floated around are guarnantees, not money spent.

If government debt and the deficit was really caused by the banks, then why has the deficit not disappeared this year now that the banks are profitable again?

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:30
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Actually sid you are right in some respects - £76bn has been paid back, so the amount at the mo is around £200bn.

It's a mixture of recapitalisation for RBS/Lloyds (100bn), taking on debts (55bn) and Bradford and Bingley/Northern Rock (53bn).

Some of the debt will be written back, RBS/Lloyds stakes should eventually produce a healthy profit whilst the good assets of B&B/NR will also realise a tidy sum.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 22:32
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'There are a hard core who would prefer to remain unemployed even if there was full employment.'

Very true. One of them became Prime Minister not that many years ago.

Interestingly, as a nation we made a swerve to the right the mid 70's, we couldn't afford to go on the way we were and we had almost broken the country trying to maintain 'full employment' for almost 30 years.

Now where are we? We gave up looking after the nation as a whole, scaled down manufacturing which made us a low wage economy, more attractive to business. Despite this we've managed to take the country to the edge once again.

During both eras we had governments of Conservative and Labour.





br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:32
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The deficit occurred because tax revenues collapsed, and the government had to go cap in hand to the markets. The bank bailouts are only a small proportion of that.

Labour naturally didn't want to slash budgets with two years to go to an election so just carried on spending with abandon.

I'm not blaming the banks, but enough of them came through this relatively unscathed to make it clear that this is a problem of management. Rewarding that management by bailing it out was a very bad idea.

They'll just go and do it again. Like gamblers at a slot machine. And next time the country won't be able to afford a bailout.

subbuteo_171 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:37
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Don't disagree br - the fact is regulation became lighter, senior managers became too detached from their businesses as a result and too many non-bankers and very clever people came to join the party.

In hindsight it was a recipe for disaster, but at the time governments loved it, shareholders loved it and so did people who were able to live the dream they'd been told they could have.




SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 22:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The banks ought to be blamed for the issues they created and they need to be regulated better to avoid the same happening again. However, to blame then for everything is counter productive and dangerous and will result in the real issues not being addressed. The banks are not responsible for a budget deficit of 13% of GDP (or more scarily that 1GBP of every 4GBP the Government currently spends is borrowed). Collectively, we've been living beyond our means for a very long time and we need to find ways to address that. Tax needs to play its part as do spending cuts as do finding ways of generating growth in the economy again (which is the least painful way of paying back debt).

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 22:47
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

The problem for the UK was the discarding of monetarism or at least failing to control of money supply, while maintaining some other policies developed during the 80's.

The assumption you could continue to increase credit availability while spending like crazy without corresponding productivity improvements was incredibly risky.

Yet it has formed the foundation of Labour economic policy for a decade, because it was driven for idealistic political reasons.

Creating a low wage economy and increasing dependency on welfare has the obvious effect of increasing Labour voters.

Is it an accident that Thatcher wanted everyone to own their own home? Or that now it is very difficult to enter the housing ladder after 12 years of Labour?

No accident. Politics.

Not sure why you would think the government of Callaghan shifted to the right mind. Unless you're talking about the IMF bailout in 1976, Thatcher was elected in 1979.

The IMF did impose restrictions on the government I believe so perhaps there was an enforced fiscal conservatism.

And despite what everyone says isn't manufacturing still the biggest sector of the economy.

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 22:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I think you're into the realm of conspiracy theories no BR. The UK is far from alone in creating the circumstances for a massive increase in personal credit avaialability. The US did the same thing, but under the Republicans as well as the Democrats. It's actually what people wanted and doing what people want is generally a vote winner. House prices increased dramatically due to massive increases in demand (immigration, reduced size of average household) and cheap money without a corresponding increase in supply / housing availability. I don't buy into the conspiracy theories - I'd rather side with Alan Greenspan's famous "irrational exuberance".

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 23:01
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'Creating a low wage economy and increasing dependency on welfare has the obvious effect of increasing Labour voters.'

The elction results since the mid 70's suggest otherwise. Labour votes were at a maximum in the early 50's.


HolgateCorner Posted on 09/06/2010 23:07
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

lot of garbage from the Tory boys as usual on here.

Did br14 seriously say that Brown should have allowed the collapse of the banking system?

Oh yes, and what would you have done br14 when you went to the cash machine on Friday night and found all your money had disappeared into a black hole?

And, once again, the deficit has been caused not just by bailing out the banks but by keeping spending levels high to avoid depression and mass unemployment and by the fall in tax revenues caused by the recession. If the bank crash hadn't happened then Britain would have been able to finance itself very nicely thankyou.


Joe_Laidlaw Posted on 09/06/2010 23:20
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Surely if all these MPs want to make cuts they should start here. [:(!]

Giving Mps up to a £115,000 pay off is ridiculous. [:(!]

If they had been a no confidence vote in all parties then that would have been the clear winner.

Sorry if this has already been said.


Link: Gready gits

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 23:21
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

If the Bank Crash hadn't happened, then neither would the tax receipts that preceded it over the previous five years.

Your (I mean Gordon Brown's) argument about avoiding depression doesn't hold water either. If that were really true, then a far larger proportion of the deficit would be cyclical rather than structural. It's really very simple - governments and people across the Western world have been spending too much money for too long.

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 23:27
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

SidSnot, it seems universally accepted that the Blair government was as right sided a Labour government as anyone can remember.

In which case, why did they abandon money supply control? 15% M4 growth in 2004 should have seen significant interest rate rises to cool credit expansion.

And why was there such a marked increase in immigration immediately after Labours election in 1997. (By 500% more or less maintained ever since). And no, there was no EU expansion that year.

And why if there was such an incredible increase in the size of population in the UK (3 million over a decade according the UK national stats office), wasn't there a corresponding increase in the supply of housing?

Of course these are deliberate policies. Nothing wrong with that if thats what the electorate want.

Though you'll note the impact of these policies was spiralling house prices, spiralling credit, but not spiralling wages (once again for supply reasons).

Not much of an economist, but that equation doesn't add up.

The US credit expansion was done for equally political reasons to do with racial equality (and naturally vote winning). They were giving mortgages to people on welfare.

In both the US and UK, the reasons for financial collapse are essentially political. They are after all the people that make the rules.

Not saying that they weren't aided and abetted by a bunch of greedy tossers only to happy to exploit the playground created by credit liberalisation.

HolgateCorner Posted on 09/06/2010 23:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

snotty - but who's going to stop spending?

When is the ridiculous big bonus culture for chief execs of big companies going to end? When are MPs going to stop abusing expenses? When are the bankers going to get paid normal salaries for doing an average job?

Why does one end of society have to take the medicine while we know the other end will carry on as before?

A lot of companies have made or are making massive profits at the moment (and have done for the last ten years), recession or no recession, there is money in the world but it only seems to be available for certain people.

Why isn't the average person who works hard for a profitable company entilted to borrow money to buy a house to better themselves in this world? And if they are lucky enoughto have equity in their house, it is their business if they choose to borrow against it.

Why does working for the public sector have to be a sentence of low pay and poor conditions and becoming a second class citizen? A lot of private industry could not function without some of the public services provided.

Unlike you I don't blindly listen to what Cameron and Osborne say in a cap doffing way. I want some answers and Cameron shouting at Labour like he is some kind of public school headmaster is not providing me with those answers.

SidSnot Posted on 09/06/2010 23:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

I'll agree with you that they were essentiually political. I'm just not a buyer of the way you've weaved lots of other policy elements into the picture that paints something quite sinister. I'm just more of a believer that the causes were more opportunistic.

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 23:35
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"It's really very simple - governments and people across the Western world have been spending too much money for too long."

Agree completely.

Only_Me Posted on 09/06/2010 23:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

" Maybe it's time employers paid their employees higher wages so that working people weren't in a situation where they needed to claim working tax credits or help with school meals from the state."

So who do you think would have to absorb the cost of the higher wages?
You don't seriously think that the companies out of the goodness of their hearts, would allow the costs to come out of their profits, do you? They would pass them straight on to the consumer, so then those that are living in poverty and claiming benefits, would be even worse off than they are now.
Don't forget, benefits do not rise in step with the cost of living/inflation.
It's all very well increasing the minimum wage but it would have to be paid for and most probably by those that can least afford it.
And if you do start asking the 'rich' some real questions. I suspect that many would reply with 2 words and would then take their wealth out of this country. What then? Who would create the jobs?




" You are either very young boy or a woman "

Behave yourself Mr 263! [:D]

HolgateCorner Posted on 09/06/2010 23:42
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Tories have always favoured a low spend, low cost and very low wage economy for the working classes.

It conserves the wealth of the rich.

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 23:44
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"the causes were more opportunistic"

Perhaps. Though I don't think there's any doubt the the immigration expansion was done to create social diversity for political ends. It's the reverse of what Mao did in China during the cultural revolution.

It could be just a terrible coincidence that apparently intelligent people forgot to increase housing supply having massively increased the demand.

It may also be that they didn't realise that creating supply in the labour market would maintain relatively low wage rises.

Personally though, I'd say that was completely understimating Blair and Brown.

I reckon they just tried for one election too many in 2005 (which is when money supply went crazy). Their policies simply couldn't be sustained another 5 years after 8/9 continuous years of 30% house price inflation.

Had they leveraged the trust developed over the previous two terms, they could probably have won even though they took appropriate action to fix the fiscal imbalances.

br14 Posted on 09/06/2010 23:50
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"Tories have always favoured a low spend, low cost and very low wage economy for the working classes."

The Tories favour a smaller working class, and bigger middle class. That way more people vote for them.

It's why they sold of council housing for example. If you own your home, you can leave it to your kids, and they become asset holders and therefore more likely to vote for fiscally conservative policies.

If you've got nowt, you've nowt to protect.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 09/06/2010 23:53
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'I suspect that many would reply with 2 words and would then take their wealth out of this country.'

They already have. India and China provide labour at far lower costs.

The manufacturing run down of the 80's cost us thousands and thousands of low skilled jobs. Globalisation has escalated the employment crisis that we've now had on our hands for over 30 years.

What do you think should happen to the people who have been removed from the jobs market? What of their offspring, some of whom don't know what a jobs market is, they've found their 'wealth' elsewhere.

We have an abundance of low/non skilled in the UK. How do you suggest they're cared for? The private sector has failed to make use of this low wage labour pool leaving the government with the burden of looking after them.

Only_Me Posted on 10/06/2010 00:06
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

" The private sector has failed to make use of this low wage labour pool leaving the government with the burden of looking after them."

I'm not sure where your argument is there corcaigh ( nothing unusual there, to be honest. [rle] )

As I had said further up in my post, the problem with increasing the minimum wage is that the cost for that would fall disproportionately on those that are already, as you call them, a burden. Many of them are in that position through no fault of their own but if you take even more jobs away by taxing the rich even more, then the number of those that are a " burden * will increase significantly. What I'm saying is that it's a balancing act. As it is, the income tax revenue pays for the welfare bill, there is nothing left in that particular pot to put towards any other service or purpose. Chasing away employers is something that we can ill afford to do.
Beyond that, it's for those that espouse that " asking serious questions of the rich " should be answering, not me.

degsyspesh Posted on 10/06/2010 00:23
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

CtC - totally agree with your assessment of the problem.

The UK has a massive surplus of low/non skilled workers and the problem is only going to get worse as there is an ever decreasing number of low/unskilled jobs. Globalisation literally means that there are no trade borders - our labour market has to compete on a global basis.

Regardless of your political persuasion, UK minimum wages mean that many low/unskilled jobs will always go to other countries who do not have such restrictions.

A great example of this is Young's Seafood. Rather than shelling prawns in the west of scotland where they are caught they now ship the prawns to China where they are shelled before shipping them back to scotland to be packaged etc.

Globalisation, minimum wages and a low/unskilled workforce simply can not work together - something has to give.

These jobs simply do not and can not exist in this country and the reality is that we can not afford to keep an ever increasing number of low/unskilled unemployed people on the levels of welfare that are currently provided

To address the problem two things need to happen. Firstly the government need to "up-skill" the workforce so that they are able to do jobs that fit with the minimum wage from a global perspective.

Secondly, whether you like it or not, it is then essential to cut the welfare state to the point where it returns to it's originally intended purpose to provide a safety net for those who can not work - but nothing more.

Also expect the minimum wage to be reduced in real terms to enable the UK to better compete globally.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 10/06/2010 03:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

'I'm not sure where your argument is there corcaigh'

Oh really [:D]

You're carping about chasing employers away, an argument used in the 70's before we hit the low wage trail, maybe you're not old enough, or haven't bothered with recent history to realise that.

So, my argument is that the threat is an empty one. For the best part of 30 years there's been a labour market to take advantage of. Why haven't those with the money, the real power, done so? We've had mass unemployment since the 70's.

Should we allow those who have let the country down with such consistency to once again dictate what is good for us?

Let those that want to leave go and they will be replaced. For most employers their market is here, they couldn't handle building elsewhere.






SidSnot Posted on 10/06/2010 04:14
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

When is the ridiculous big bonus culture for chief execs of big companies going to end? When are MPs going to stop abusing expenses? When are the bankers going to get paid normal salaries for doing an average job?

I agree with this criticism Holgate. I work very closely with people who earn absurd money (8 figures), but in reality there is not that many of these type of people and taxing them to the hilt will not make the average person much richer. That's where I disagree with you. Soaking the rich is not the answer.

Besides give Cameron the credit for actually proposing to limit senior public sector pay. I didn't see the previous lot doing this.

newyddion Posted on 10/06/2010 09:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

TAX the banks
SCRAP TRIDENT



Link: Robin Hood tax

sitheman Posted on 10/06/2010 09:52
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

If you are at a level where you cannot afford to pay £2.00 for your child to have something to eat then it is a sorry state and you the family must be doing something wrong. Heres a mental suggestion why dont they go out an get a job!

Oh thats right because then they would loose out on all the other benefits that this brings, like not having to stump up some money for your childs dinner.

Scrote Posted on 10/06/2010 21:41
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"Besides give Cameron the credit for actually proposing to limit senior public sector pay. I didn't see the previous lot doing this."

because the 'previous lot' realised that if you didn't pay the going rate for a top class chief executive etc. you had to make do with lesser quality decision makers in local govt. and the civil service

whether it worked or not is another question but i'd argue that all it has proved is that a lot of people in the private sector earn a fortune for doing very little whilst the wheels are in motion around them

transferred to the civil service and local govt. where their decisions have visible consequences (and meet with vociferous disapproval) the vast majority can't hack it

if people are paid too much then they are paid too much in both private and public sectors - why doesn't cameron want a universal salary cap (or taxation to that effect)?

if the only argument is that people will go elsewhere then let them - they've hardly covered themselves in glory over the last few years

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/06/2010 22:27
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

90% tax on anyone earning over 75k. That will sort it[^]

degsyspesh Posted on 10/06/2010 22:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

"90% tax on anyone earning over 75k. That will sort it"

By "sort it" do you mean as in encouraging all high earners to work overseas meaning that many of the top UK based firms are also forced to relocate abroad. Both actions will cause the UK's tax revenues to be slashed thereby compounding the existing problem?

Or are you just jealous of high earners?

myboro Posted on 10/06/2010 23:33
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Having been in that situation thanks for your advice sitheman. However if I do get a job I wont lose benefits - I don't get any

As my Wife works the loss of one income was a real struggle. My Kids now get a packed lunch but I make sure I cook a good meal on an evening.

I really think free school meals for all children is a worthwhile ambition for a civilised society.

Unfortunately we have become less interested in our society and more interested in ourselves over recent years.

Makes you proud to be an American wannabee of a country.

Scrote Posted on 11/06/2010 00:58
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

assuming he means 90% on anything over 75k then where is the problem?

the threat of businesses relocating is a hollow one - the top people might go elsewhere but they will be replaced by the next best and so on - a bit of churn at the top would probably be better for shareholders in the long term whilst the cost of relocation wouldn't be

it's just one spurious argument after another to try and justify cost cutting measures at the bottom rather than at the top

degsyspesh Posted on 11/06/2010 01:17
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

So where's the problem?

OK, take the finance sector. As much as everyone currently hates bankers, the fact is that the banking sector has provided £60-70Bn a year in tax revenues for this country - and that doesn't include the income tax etc paid by their staff.

Let's say your average high end city banker is paid £200k, if you introduce a 90% tax rate over £75k you will effectively half their take home pay. As much as some would like to do that, all that will happen is that the banker will move to somewhere where they do not have a punitive tax system.

The finance sector is completely globally mobile and totally reliant on their staff - they will not just accept the "next best", they will just move with their staff.

Like or not, the finance sector is crucial to the recovery and future prosperity of this country - we have nothing else.

EDIT - and no, I don't work in the finance sector, nor do I get paid £75k. Sadly.

redwurzel Posted on 11/06/2010 01:39
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Extending free school meals is a bit of a luxury in times of massive debts and when more families obtain free school meals than ever before.

One third of households main income provider is state benefits - this is clearly not sustainable.

Some of the foreign aid money is in the form of British goods which would not have had buyers. Some is to provide support to ex British Empire countries and some is to stop poor people heading to Britain. I agree some of this budget should be trimmed as well.

Scrote Posted on 12/06/2010 17:24
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

degsy - if london's banks handed half their 'top' staff a p45 today the financial system wouldn't notice

the vast majority are in those jobs because of 'old school tie' contacts - not because of an innate ability with finance and certainly not because they excel in their field

two friends of mine have worked in that area

one left uni with a mediocre degree and walked into a £60k per year job because of who his dad was - he didn't last long 'cos he didn't like the culture but his lack of ability wasn't a hindrance

the other has a degree, two masters degrees and a whole load of other qualifications that put him at the top of his game - he has worked all over europe on financial systems but has never managed to secure his dream job in the trading markets 'cos every year people like the first friend (who is now a teacher) walk into those positions

the actual mechanics of the financial systems don't require half the people working in the city - it is purely a huge boys club

the fact that we all feel beholden to them is just a throwback to the forelock tugging to the master from years gone by

Sea_Harrier Posted on 12/06/2010 17:50
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Aye, Gordon was the man, installing the 10p tax for the poor, and getting them all excited about being a little better off, then snatching it away. Didn't Mrs. Thatcher's do a similar unforgivable thing with the kids school milk?

The current government will bring a zero tax for those earning £10k, or less. What bloody charlatans, taxing the rich and allowing the accrued Capital Gains Tax et al to filter down to the poor. Whatever will the Commies on this message board make of that, robbing the rich to aid the poor?

subbuteo_171 Posted on 12/06/2010 17:54
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Scrote - I have hundreds more examples where that is not the case.

degsyspesh Posted on 12/06/2010 19:25
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

Scrote, while I believe that the "old boys club" certainly exists to some extent - it is nothing like 50%. 5% maybe, even 10% - but not 50%.

Even if it was 50%, and you halved the sectors take home pay - which staff do you think would leave?? Those who were there on their own merits and could easily get a high paid job elsewhere, or those who knew they were on a cushy number because daddy and uncle hugo in the city used to go to Harrow together?

Anyway, couldn't give a fk at the moment - COME ON ENGLAND!!!!!!!!

borobadge Posted on 13/06/2010 11:48
The Tory axe starts to fall on the poorest

£10,000 who lives on that in britain ?

the tories WILL do what they said they will do, too late to start moaning and complaining about it now, you all had your chance on may 6th.


intersting how the sub-lims on here went from No Flavour to Brand New Panties to Tories to Wet Liberals....all in 3 weeks.

political chameleons (sp).