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zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:34
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

AJ in, Downing is out of capello's squad

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:35
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Has it been named?

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 13:35
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

he had a long term injury which hasnt helped is this the final squad or jsut a chance for him to have a look at johnson. didnt he do the same with wheater?

Humpty Posted on 11/05/2010 13:37
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

because staying with us would have benefited him [:D]

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:38
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Yes Adi I am off today and just had SSN on, full side named

green
james
hart in goal

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Is this the provisional squad due to be cut down for the world cup or the squad for the next friendly?

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

defence

caragher
upson
rio
terry
cole
king


among those picked in defence

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 13:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

yes its the 30 man squad

flaps Posted on 11/05/2010 13:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Provisional world cup squad I think.

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:40
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

mf

AJ
cole
gerrard
lampard
huddleson
parker
milner

etc amnong the mf

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:40
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Interesting. Not a decision I agree with but one that certainly benefits Boro more than Downing being selected would have done so good news for us. Let's hope he gets a game.

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 13:41
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

not exactly set the world alight over the last two seasons but some on here could not see that

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:42
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

and up front and i can remember all of these

heskey
rooney
crouch
defoe
bent

no carlton cole

bear66 Posted on 11/05/2010 13:42
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Parker?

B-MAN Posted on 11/05/2010 13:43
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Squad list

Goalkeepers
Joe Hart, David James, Robert Green

Defenders

Leighton Baines, Jamie Carragher, Ashley Cole, Michael Dawson, Rio Ferdinand, Glen Johnson, Ledley King, John Terry, Matthew Upson, Stephen Warnock

Midfielders

Gareth Barry, Michael Carrick, Joe Cole, Steven Gerrard, Tom Huddlestone, Adam Johnson, Frank Lampard, Aaron Lennon, James Milner, Scott Parker, Theo Walcott, Shaun Wright-Phillips

Forwards
Darren Bent, Peter Crouch, Jermain Defoe, Emile Heskey, Wayne Rooney

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:44
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I don't think anyone has argued that he's been great over the last two seasons. I think he's been good enough to deserve a place in the 30 at least though.

I think his biggest problem at Villa is the position he's been asked to play in.

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:44
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

still to be whittled to the final 23 but as the saying goes if your name isn't down you won't get in, downing not even in the final 30... that move away from the left wing has cost him.

Spamlad Posted on 11/05/2010 13:45
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi_Dem Why does this benefit Boro ? Are we due further payments from Man City for Johnson based on the number of England appearances ?

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:45
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Yeah, if he plays we get a million quid.

B-MAN Posted on 11/05/2010 13:46
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

If he makes an England appearance we get an extra 1m

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 13:46
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

his biggest problem is that he hasn`t progressed over the last 2 yrs

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:46
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I think that's right zorro though, of course, Johnson has been playing on the right too. I don't think Johnson has done enough to merit his selection to be honest but there you go.

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:47
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He will play otherwise would capello have picked him prob get a run v mexico if not def in graz v japan.

1,000,0000 to us thanks fabio.

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 13:47
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

MON is a bit clueless i think. he has young,downing and milner and he plays downing too deep. i think one of them will be sold in the summer. then spend the money on another part of the team like a decent striker

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 13:47
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I wonder what excuse Adi_Dem will use now to defend Downing's poor performance when he can't fall back on the "Capello picks him" retort.

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:49
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I agree adi but driving home last night and had talk sport on and Johnson was the main topic of discussion.

Even world soccer had him down as a maybe (never mentioned downing either) for the squad.

Jim white announced him as middlesbrough adm johnson then realised and corrected himself... ah well

Jeremy_Clarkson Posted on 11/05/2010 13:50
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

That squad wont win diddly squat [sad]

Humpty Posted on 11/05/2010 13:50
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Shaun Wright Phillips [:D] you have got to be kidding me.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 13:51
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I don't need an excuse. Equally, I haven't used the argument that Capello picks him, certainly not in isolation, you're mistaking me for someone else. What I said was that Capello had said he was the player that had most impressed him.

I know you struggle with the concept of opinions that differ from your own pete but perhaps when you grow up a bit you'll learn to accept them.

I am not looking for excuses because, as I've already said, it's not a decision I agree with.

Here's the thread that I think you're referring to. Try again pete, I won't hold my breath for an apology.


Link: Here

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 13:51
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Big questions marks of theo as well as some were saying he could have missed out but he is in and so we will see if he is on the plane.

Main gripes were

no end product speed but but little else and then again you have the croatia game... so

STEEL_CITY_SMOGGY Posted on 11/05/2010 13:52
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Parker and Huddlestone [V]

Nero Posted on 11/05/2010 13:53
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm not bashing Downing here, as I think he's a good footballer. However, if he wasn't left footed, he would be nowhere near the England squad.

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 14:00
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Has been picked by the last 3 managers,not anymore though,2 of those had direct links to his club.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:00
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I suppose you can still use the "Well Redknapp/O'Neil rate him" crap you use too, Adi.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:01
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Again, arguments that I've never put forward because they are utterly meaningless. At least try and have an adult debate instead of this point scoring sneer that seems to be your default mode.

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 14:04
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

lots of backtracking to look forward to I suspect or will the uber fans still not concede that they are wrong about Downing and his status

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:05
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi, it's obviously upsetting for you that Capello has now realised Downing offers little to England, something which most observers have noticed for a while.

Not a very good day for the blinkered, or indeed Downing.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:07
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

This is what I don't understand - why does there have to be backtracking?

I maintain that Downing is a top class player and that he ought to be in the world cup squad. Others disagree, including the only man whose opinion actually counts. I can't, for the life of me, see why some (not necessarily you Dribble) can't accept that.

Humpty Posted on 11/05/2010 14:09
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"lots of backtracking to look forward to I suspect or will the uber fans still not concede that they are wrong about Downing and his status"

firstly i've never seen your name around here before, so i'm not sure how you can claim higher ground there.

secondly, what exactly is there to be wrong about Downing? I don't think anyone would seriously doubt he's a quality footballer because he's been left out the england squad.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:10
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Why would it upset me? You really are a bit strange pete. If you read the thread I have linked to above you would notice that, in actual fact, my preference was for Johnson to be picked since that will directly benefit Boro.

Never mind though, you just keep making yourself look silly.

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 11/05/2010 14:10
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Been saying it for a while. Johnson's ability to beat a man and open up a defence could be invaluable in tight games at international level.

I agree Downing should potentially be ahead of a few others in the 30 but Johnson is the better player.

Another assist at the weekend with a right-footed cross. He's developing into an excellent winger...

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 14:11
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

downing is a top player, just he has had a bad season with injuries and MON not getting the best out of him. he will come back again. might see him move on in the summer.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:14
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

lots of backtracking to look forward to I suspect or will the uber fans still not concede that they are wrong about Downing and his status
---
It was expected though.

Those that have defended Downing, even when he was woeful, have always relied on him being picked by Capello so they can use it to belittle and demean the naysayers.

That's gone now so it's tedious excuses and plenty of i-never-said-thats.

fatsuma Posted on 11/05/2010 14:14
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm disappointed for Stuart Downing.

Like Juninho, who left Boro a year before a World Cup that he wanted to take part in, he misses out.

Hopefully, like Juninho, he'll get a chance to win the next one!

fatsuma Posted on 11/05/2010 14:14
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I can't see:

Baines, Warnock, Huddlestone, Bent or Dawson making it

and a toss up between:

Barry/Parker; SWP/Adam Johnson

T1ffy Posted on 11/05/2010 14:19
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing is just a very average player, he just managed to look good in our rubbish team.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:22
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Apparently, it's also O'Neil's and Aston Villa's fault that Downing hasn't been picked.

[rle]

Deary me, what next? Gordon Brown? Volcano Ehkjjkvfhvvmnb,jbjkv,? Keith Lamb?

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 14:22
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

the reality is and this may be controversial..

downing is prob the best left winger in england, however he is not even in the top 5 midfeielders in england and that is the problem on the left he is a superb outlet and he can fight anyone for that slot, but if he goes for any other position in the side there are far better options out there.

He has sadi he feared being pdgeon holed as a just a left winger well it seems this has been his undoing.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:24
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He was only woeful in your opinion though pete and so we're back to the fundamental flaw in your make up; namely that you consider there to be two types of opinion - your own and the wrong one.

I will continue to defend Downing and maintain everything that I have ever posted about him. Him not being selected for an England squad won't change my view. I'm not sure why you think it would.

I have seen no evidence of anything being used to belittle and demean the naysayers when it comes to Downing. There is plenty of oneupmanship, belitting and sneering on this thread coming from your keyboard however.

Please tell me where these tedious excuses are and please point me to a thread in which I have ever used the arguments that you believe I have. I have referred you to the thread that I believe you were thinking of.

It is this sort of pathetic approach to debates that really puts me off this forum, it really does.

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 14:26
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

funny how bitter boro fans decide they dont rate him now he has left boro but had previously cried foul when players like ashley young/SWP/Cole were played ahead of him..fickle fans as always[smi]

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:29
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I love how Adi_Dem gets annoyed when he thinks people are intolerant of his opinions, yet no one is as intolerant as he is.

[:D]

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 14:29
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He might get a spot on the decks at the Empire this summer instead now he`s not doing anything in June and July

Dibzzz Posted on 11/05/2010 14:31
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He must be gutted, mind you if he'd stayed with us we wouldn't even be discussing this.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:32
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

funny how bitter boro fans decide they dont rate him now he has left boro but had previously cried foul when players like ashley young/SWP/Cole were played ahead of him..fickle fans as always
---
I think most fans didn't rate Downing good enough for England when he was here.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:34
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm not annoyed in the slightest pete. It's only a messageboard you know.

I'm extremely tolerant. I'm still engaging with you aren't I? I don't think you'll find many posts of mine dismissing the opinion of others, with the possible exception of those involving the Dude, which I'll own up to.

There is a very simple way to resolve it Pete. I think everybody accepts that but for injury Beckham would have been picked. I think you would have disagreed with that decision completely.

On that basis though, if you're argument is that Capello dropping Downing undermines all of us that rate Downing and think he has played well enough to have been picked then would him picking Beckham have proven you wrong in the same way?

Answers on a postcard.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm extremely tolerant
---
[:D]

You're the most intolerant person on this forum. There is no question about that.

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 11/05/2010 14:41
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I don't think Downing has been pigeon-holed as a left-winger when he's been playing in a central role this season.

zorro_mfc Posted on 11/05/2010 14:43
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He said that when he was here, see my post earlier i know where he has played for villa and this is why he isn't going to SA

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:45
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I don't think Downing has been pigeon-holed as a left-winger when he's been playing in a central role this season.
---
Wow! Do people actually believe this?

RedHert Posted on 11/05/2010 14:46
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Bitterley disappointed for Stewie, and I thought Capello liked balance in his team so I thought he would at leat get in the 30.Other fmttMOONERS have mentioned that he has'nt set the premiership on fire this season and I have to agree. with hindsight he shopuld have gone to Spurs he would have played in his natuarl left wing position and been with a London "press" fashionable club.
Good luck to adam but a little early for him I feel but hopefully see him at Wembley against Meckico

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 14:48
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"I think most fans didn't rate Downing good enough for England when he was here."

thats a load rubbish isnt it and you know it.i'm sure with your old username you would have him as an england regular at boro and whinging cos other players were getting picked cos of who they play for

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:49
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Not with you around I'm not pete. Care to answer or not?

Dribble Posted on 11/05/2010 14:52
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Strange I thought Downings ability to play left or right,to play inside or tuck in at leftback were the things mooted on here as to why he`s such an all round player,now they `re what`s scuppered his world cup dream.It hasn`t stopped other versatile players getting the nod

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 14:54
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

It's a double edged sword. He is versatile and can play those roles quietly and effectively but he shines on the left wing. So whilst his versatility might have helped him in one sense, the fact that he wasn't able to shine in his favoured position must have contributed to him not getting picked.

As I say, in the games I've seen him play he's done well for Villa. He's a good player that I think ought to be in the 30.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:58
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

thats a load rubbish isnt it and you know it.i'm sure with your old username you would have him as an england regular at boro and whinging cos other players were getting picked cos of who they play for
---
No it's not a load of rubbish and I don't have an old username either.

You can make all the excuses you want, but your suggestion that I, or anyone else, have changed their opinion on Downing being an England regular since his move to Villa is the kind of nonsensical XXXXXX I expect from some ditraught at his omission from the squad.

He's not good enough for England now and he wasn't when he was here (for the most part). He's proven time and time again when in an England shirt that he can't cut it and it seems Capello has finally come to that conclusion too, after doubting him enough for so long he played a right-footed centre-mid at left wing instead.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 14:59
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Not with you around I'm not pete. Care to answer or not?
---
Your hypothetical question about Beckham?

I don't think Capello would have picked him for the final 23 anyway.

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 15:01
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"No it's not a load of rubbish and I don't have an old username either."

ofcourse you don't

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:02
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

That doesn't answer the question and is a convenient get out. If Capello had picked Beckham would that have proven you wrong?

It's a yes or no.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:03
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Strange I thought Downings ability to play left or right,to play inside or tuck in at leftback were the things mooted on here as to why he`s such an all round player,now they `re what`s scuppered his world cup dream.It hasn`t stopped other versatile players getting the nod
---
Reminds me of the Liverpool fans who were bleating on about how good Gerrard was as a player because of his versatility, but when baffled when questioned why he doesn't perform for England when playing as a winger/holding midfielder.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:05
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

ofcourse you don't
---
What is it then, sasboro1?

Just accept that Downing hasn't been picked rather than getting upset about it.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:07
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Wrong about what, Adi?

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:12
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

You're view appears to be that Downing not being selected proves you right about him and those of us that think he has actually been playing reasonably well for Villa wrong.

You have been quite vocal that selecting Beckham is selecting reputation rather than form. You have made it very clear that Beckham should not be picked for the world cup.

My question is a simple one. Had Beckham remained injury free and been picked for England would that have proven you to be wrong in the same way that you believe Downing not being picked has proven me wrong?

B-MAN Posted on 11/05/2010 15:13
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm really suprised he's not in the 30. I think if you look at the wingers that have been picked a lot of them are samey in my opinion. Walcott, Lennon, SWP, Johnson are all head down, fast, tricky but doubts over their end products. Milner and J.Cole are similar to Downing and I'd have thought with no Beckham Downing would have been for his crossing ability. Unless of course Capello doesnt see Heskey or Crouch starting so the crossing ability of Downing isnt seen as that essential?

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:25
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

You're view appears to be that Downing not being selected proves you right about him and those of us that think he has actually been playing reasonably well for Villa wrong.

You have been quite vocal that selecting Beckham is selecting reputation rather than form. You have made it very clear that Beckham should not be picked for the world cup.

My question is a simple one. Had Beckham remained injury free and been picked for England would that have proven you to be wrong in the same way that you believe Downing not being picked has proven me wrong?
---
What a ridiculous question!

Of course, but then I doubt Beckham would have been picked anyway.

The thing is Adi, you and the other incredibly blinkered lot have passionately defended Downing and his poor performances by always using his England call ups as backup to your opinion. You have denounced anyone that questioned his inclusion in that belittling and undermining fashion to frequently do, by implying that if Capello picks him then you must be right.

You no longer have that to fall back on now.

I've admitted I'd be wrong if Capello picked Beckham, can you put aside your arrogance and stubbornness to admit you're wrong, or are you going to continue rolling out your plethora of tedious excuses and back-peddling antics?

Boromart Posted on 11/05/2010 15:25
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Look lads, Downing is an excellent player. His performances, MOTM, goals, assists and general play for us at the very top level proves that. It takes someone with an axe to grind (and there are many of them in the Boro) to take an opposite view.

Now as far as this season has gone. Yep his injury held him back, and MON playing him on the right most of the time. I think he came back too early and never really looked 100% fit, and never seemed to really fit into Villa's style of play. It's a shame for a lad who is Boro through and through. But it was just the wrong club for him at the wrong time.

I still think he is a little hard done by here. He should certainly be in that 30 ahead of the likes of Joe Cole who has been awful this season, but in a better team.

Downing has never really done anything wrong in an England shirt, but hasn't really set any games alight, he has maybe suffered from not believing in himself enough, but still as a steady-eddy in the squad to come on for 15 mins to steady the side to victory, he would have done a job.

I don't know if Downing will ever be a success at Villa, something just doesn't sit quite right, maybe we will sign him back up for half the price next summer [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:35
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Well, firstly pete you need to calm down a bit. It's only a messageboard.#

Why is it a ridiculous question? Please explain.

Anyway, I have asked you repeatedly to find a thread in which I defend my opinion of Downing on the basis that he has England caps. I have never used that as the foundation to any argument and nor would I given that it proves very little. Carlton Palmer, for example, wasn't a very good player.

Yes, I have passionately defended Downing but, again, you will not find a thread in which I have denounced or belittled anyone for holding a different view. You might want to look a little closer to home in that respect - just look at your contributions to this thread. They are the epitome of everything you don't like about what you think I posted to defend Downing. That's hipocritical by any standards.

So before you go on these little tirades of yours I would suggest getting your facts right.

Now, in answer to your question, I don't wish to fall back on anything. I hold the same view now about Downing that I did yesterday and that I have held for some time. I don't need him to be picked for England to hold that view.

To be honest I'm more than a little disappointed with your response. It suggests that you have no faith in your own view and that Capello is somehow infallibe, which he isn't.

I would have respected you much more if you had said that you would have still believed that you were right about Beckham. You see him being picked for the world cup ought to be irrelevant to your view. It is perfectly OK to disagree with Capello, just as I am now about Downing. That's not arrogant or stubborn, it's called having an opinion.

It's very odd that you were so vehemently against his inclusion but then had Capello picked him you would suddenly admit that you were wrong all along.

Peachy Posted on 11/05/2010 15:36
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing has always lacked that special competative edge - the thing that made rooney and cantona to put it in the vernacular he is a bit of a fanny. Evert team has one and now villa have one[8)]

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Now as far as this season has gone. Yep his injury held him back, and MON playing him on the right most of the time
---
One minute people are claiming Downing has played most of the time in the centre, the next it's most of the time on the right.

Why can't people just accept that he's played on the left of a four-man midfield and rather than make excuses about what position O'Neil has played him in, just come to terms with the fact he hasn't done enough to justify an inclusion in the provisional England squad.

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 11/05/2010 15:39
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

For me, Downing is a good Premier League player. Not an excellent one.

He was consistently good for us without being truly World Class. At Villa he's been below par and has had an average season.

Johnson at City meanwhile, has been excellent and in the next two or three years will go on to become the best player our academy has ever produced...

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:43
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Just as I thought; Adi can't swallow his pride, being the incredibly arrogant person he is, and admit he's wrong.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:43
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Maybe Pete, and this is just a guess, maybe it's because they don't agree?

Just a thought.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:45
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

So, just to boil it down pete, if I don't admit I'm wrong about Downing (with the proof of my being wrong coming in the form of Downing not being selected for the world cup) I am arrogant?

Is that really what you're saying?

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:48
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

You're arrogant whether you do or not, nothing will change that.

You haven't got the "Capello picks him" excuse to use now, so where do you go from here, Adi?

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:50
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Maybe Pete, and this is just a guess, maybe it's because they don't agree?
---
Are you questioning Capello's judgement when for so long you've been using just that to back up your opinions on Downing?

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:52
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

What a strange fella you are. You clearly know nothing about me.

I think I've already answered that several times on this thread pete. I think I've also asked you to show me where I have ever used Capello picking him as the basis for my opinion. Here's a clue - I've been posting the same stuff about Downing since he broke into the Boro side. Even before he played for England. Never mind though, you'll get there in the end.

Here's another one for you:

"I wouldn't pick Downing for the squad but I reckon Capello will, especially if Joe Cole doesn't get more playing time."

So, would you have admitted to being wrong about Downing if he had made it into the 30 or 23?

Boromart Posted on 11/05/2010 15:53
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Pete Villa's midfield has been.....

Young...Petrov...Milner....Downing

Young on the left, Downing on the right. Seems a bit daft to me when you have Heskey and Carew who could head the crosses in, but there you go. I don't care what anyone else says about SD playing central, he has played about 2 games there this season, and 10 mins in a couple of games. Primarily he has played right wing.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 15:57
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

No, Boromart he's being playing left wing. Yes, occasionally like when he was he, he'd swap wings throughout the game, but he's primarily been deployed as a left winger.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:58
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

You were "questioning Capello's judgement" earlier when you said he was picking players on reputation rathert han form and yet are now relying on his judgement to prove that you were right all along about Downing.

Very odd.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 15:58
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He hasn't pete. He really hasn't.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:03
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi, when are you going to swallow your pride and admit you're wrong?

Your excuses are wearing incredibly thin now, just bite the bullet and accept that Capello, who's judgement you've continually used to back yourself up with, has decided against Downing.

Let's hope for your sake England win the Word Cup to take the edge off the bitter disappointment you're feeling, cos otherwise we're going to have you bitching and moaning through the entire summer.

Mind, I suppose if England don't win it you can use "We would have if Downing was there" excuse!

[rle]

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:05
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Yes Adi, yes he has.

I know it's one of the excuses you have for Downing's omission, but you're wrong, again.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:06
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Well, I too would just keep repeating the same points if I'd been made to look as daft as you pete.

Ignore the posts and just keep repeating it. That's the way. Don't bother answering the questions because they'll make you look even dafter.

As you get a bit older you'll get a bit wiser. Hopefully.

red_shamrock Posted on 11/05/2010 16:08
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Think he made a mistake not picking Downing, glad AJ is in the provisional squad and hope he makes the cut.

Downing keeps possession and decent passer and can knock a cross in, theres always next time.

Boromart Posted on 11/05/2010 16:08
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"He was consistently good for us without being truly World Class" -- can't agree with that in his first full season he was in that league, I remember that racist CB from Lazio enthusing about him, and the media getting very excited.

Unfortunately he got a bad knee injury with England at the end of the season in the US, and he never got his pace back. He changed from an out-and-out winger to a wide midfielder and by Southgates first season it could again be argued that he was a near world class midfielder. I mean come on doubel figures from midfield in the prem,

appletonlesmog Posted on 11/05/2010 16:08
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Petedreadnought

I'm rarely moved to post on here, but you've prompted me to stop lurking for once.

As someone pointed out, people like you are one of the most off-putting things about this board.

I reckon it'd be more interesting for everyone if you posted about the topic, rather than pursuing some utterly pathetic cyber-warrior vendetta against Adi (with whom I'm not necessarily siding here, btw)

In actual fact, you have really shown yourself up - you have refused to answer his questions, provide evidence of your petty accusations, and tried to reduce the issue to a slagging match.

This could just have been a debate - but you've come off worse here, big style.

Someone call the doyle police...

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:11
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi, you're not really in a position to make an issue of people not answering your questions when you refuse to do so yourself and dodge around them with paragraphs upon paragraphs of empty, irrelevant spiel.

See what I mean about you being an arrogant, stuck-up, pompous XXXXXX?

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:13
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

The point for me appletonlesmog is that there ought not to be 'sides' to take.

I have a valid and reasonable opinion on Downing that won't change simply because he hasn't been picked for England. I believe it is my right to hold that opinion and that it hasn't been 'proven' wrong today.

I equally believe and understand that it's not everyone's view and that not everyone will agree with me.

It's what the board ought to be about. I am happy to debate anything on here all day long but it is precisely what has happened on this thread that puts people off.

I accept my share of responsibility because I should just ignore posters like pete who don't want to debate like adults but I haven't here and it has escalated to almost a 100 thread because I have perpetuated it.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:16
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Well done pete, just when it looks like you've brought the thread down as low as it can go, you take it further.

You simply would not behave like this if you were sat opposite me or anyone else. It is the behaviour of the cyber warrior.

I've made my point, it's there for all to see. You've made yours. I'll let other posters make their minds up and leave this thread alone now.

Boromart Posted on 11/05/2010 16:20
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

petedreadnought, I've seen quite a bit of Villa, and he has mostly been right.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:22
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi, if I has the misfortune of sitting next to you I'd be laughing in your face.

If you wish for people to answer the questions you ask them then you should have the courtesy to do yourself when questions are directed at you, something which you haven't done here.

It was my opinion that Downing wasn't good enough for England, something which you disagreed with and continually used the fact that Capello selected him as back up, you don't have that to fall back on now so it's understandable you're XXXXXXed off because your arrogance and persistent belittling has come back to bite you on the arse.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:27
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

petedreadnought, I've seen quite a bit of Villa, and he has mostly been right.
---
I've seen quite a bit of Villa too and he's mostly been deployed on the left, his best position.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:35
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Your childishness does keep pulling me back in, doesn't it!

You'd sit there laughing in my face would you? Presumably then when asked a difficult question you would put your fingers in your ears whilst shouting 'la la la'.

You are a child pete.

I have answered each and every one of your questions. If you feel I haven't then repeat them and I will do so again.

Fire away.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:43
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

- I've admitted I'd be wrong if Capello picked Beckham, can you put aside your arrogance and stubbornness to admit you're wrong, or are you going to continue rolling out your plethora of tedious excuses and back-peddling antics?

- You haven't got the "Capello picks him" excuse to use now, so where do you go from here, Adi?

- Are you questioning Capello's judgement when for so long you've been using just that to back up your opinions on Downing?

- Adi, when are you going to swallow your pride and admit you're wrong?


Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:49
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

- I've admitted I'd be wrong if Capello picked Beckham, can you put aside your arrogance and stubbornness to admit you're wrong, or are you going to continue rolling out your plethora of tedious excuses and back-peddling antics?

As I've already said on countless occasions, I am not going to change my mind because he hasn't been picked for the world cup. On that basis I will not be admitting that I am wrong because I still believe what i believed yesterday.

- You haven't got the "Capello picks him" excuse to use now, so where do you go from here, Adi?

I don't need to go anywhere. As I've said countless times, I haven't used that 'excuse' before and my opinion on the matter remains the same.

- Are you questioning Capello's judgement when for so long you've been using just that to back up your opinions on Downing?

I am disagreeing with a decision Capello has made. I have not used Capello picking him to back up my arguments.

- Adi, when are you going to swallow your pride and admit you're wrong?

I'm not.

There you go. Each of those have been answered in the thread above but hopefully that clears it up for you.

Over to you now. Answer mine.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 16:53
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

[:D]

So you want me to admit I'm wrong when Capello selects a player I think shouldn't have, which I admitted to, but you're not prepared to yourself?

Just admit you're wrong, Adi.


Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 16:58
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

No, I wanted to know what your view would be. I haven't once on here told you that you were wrong or that I wanted to prove you wrong. I wanted to know whether you would have admitted to being wrong about Beckham, which you said you would and at which I was extremely surprised, in order to clarify something. I wanted to clarify whether you believed that the validity of your opinions depended solely upon whether Capello agreed with you or not. You answered that. I happen to disagree and so will not be admitting I'm wrong because I still believe the same thing I believed before the squad was announced.

If you think that I can't admit when I'm wrong then that is demonstrably not the case. I have been wrong on here countless times and always admitted it.

I am now waiting for you to have the courtesy to answer my outstanding questions.

ccole Posted on 11/05/2010 17:02
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC"

I wouldnt take him on recent form.

I do find it sad that some on here will be pleased about that.[V]

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 17:03
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

You asked me if I would be wrong. I said yes. The same circumstance applies to you, yet given your overwhelmingly arrogant and stubborn nature you won't, yet clearly by the fact that you've always fallen back on Capello's judgement you are.

Post these questions then, Adi.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 17:14
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

If you believe that I am lying and that Capello picking Downing was the foundation of my argument then it is utterly pointless continuing it. I've asked you to post threads in which I do say that and you haven't and yet you persist with using it as the basis for your argument.

It is not arrogant or stubborn to disagree with a decision made by the national football manager. If it were then there wouldn't be any threads on England because everything Capello does or will do must ultimately be correct if we take your argument to its logical conclusion.

I am going to offer you an olive branch here because it is tiresome. We both disagreeon Downing. I would ask that you kindly accept that Downing being picked for England isn't the foundation of my argument and that my view on Downing is based on watching him play for a number of years and having watched him play for Villa this year. If so, we are left with a simple situation where you believe Capello was right to leave him out and I believe he was wrong.

On that basis, let us agree to differ with the understanding that both of us hold valid and reasonable opinions because I am quite sure that everyone else is sick of this thread.

If you don't want to do that here are the questions:

1. This is what I don't understand - why does there have to be backtracking?

2. So, just to boil it down pete, if I don't admit I'm wrong about Downing (with the proof of my being wrong coming in the form of Downing not being selected for the world cup) I am arrogant?

Is that really what you're saying?

3. "I wouldn't pick Downing for the squad but I reckon Capello will, especially if Joe Cole doesn't get more playing time."

So, would you have admitted to being wrong about Downing if he had made it into the 30 or 23?

4. You were "questioning Capello's judgement" earlier when you said he was picking players on reputation rathert han form and yet are now relying on his judgement to prove that you were right all along about Downing. Is that right?

br14 Posted on 11/05/2010 17:16
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing has been playing left midfield. You can't really call it left wing, because he's not allowed to get forward enough. He does interchange with Young a fair deal - usually after each corner.

Downing covers for Milner when he pushed forward. The first game Downing started for Villa, Milner was moved in off the wing to midfield, and he's been there ever since.

Bit of a shame for the lad really, but no doubt he's making a tad more cash to make up for the disappointment.

And I'm not surprised about AJ being in the squad. Can't see him going to SA but you never know.

He provides many of Man City's goals. And interestingly enough, within about 5 minutes of him being replaced against Spurs, they scored their goal.

SWP had wandered all over the place, leaving the City right side completely exposed. The goal ultimately resulted from that weakness.

One thing Boro lads seem to be taught well, is where to be on the field at any given point.

darko_pancev Posted on 11/05/2010 17:30
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Pete has made some valid points, so has Adi, I'm not going to read the whole argument. I believe Downing has done enough this season to deserve a call up to the world cup, he has good technical ability and can spot a pass but has been playing within his comfort zone this season. As capello already has his starting eleven he has obviously gone for impact players who can come off the bench and Downing will never be that type of player in my opinion. Johnson on the other hand could be a good shout, if wright phillips is being considered then what about the player who's keeping him out of the city side?

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 17:33
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Again Adi, you've used Capello's selection of Downing as back up to your defence of whenever Downing's poor performance was criticised. You've used the logic that if I disagree with Capello's choice I'm wrong, yet you being as incredibly arrogant as you are seem to think it doesn't apply to you.

Typical coward.

1. This is what I don't understand - why does there have to be backtracking?
---
You tell me.



2. So, just to boil it down pete, if I don't admit I'm wrong about Downing (with the proof of my being wrong coming in the form of Downing not being selected for the world cup) I am arrogant?

Is that really what you're saying?
---
I have already answered this. You've probably misses it.



3. "I wouldn't pick Downing for the squad but I reckon Capello will, especially if Joe Cole doesn't get more playing time."

So, would you have admitted to being wrong about Downing if he had made it into the 30 or 23?
---
Doesn't my response to your "Beckham" question already give you an answer to this? I think it does.



4. You were "questioning Capello's judgement" earlier when you said he was picking players on reputation rathert han form and yet are now relying on his judgement to prove that you were right all along about Downing. Is that right?
---
I'm rubbing your face into the fact that you've been so incredibly reliable on Capello's selection of Downing to back yourself up when defending Downing against criticism that you no longer have that in your corner.

It's been fun watching you squirm and make your excuses when your own logic has been used against you.

Let's be honest, Adi. If Capello had picked him you'd have a thread on here mocking anyone who said he shouldn't go.

sasboro1 Posted on 11/05/2010 17:37
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"Downing has been playing left midfield. You can't really call it left wing, because he's not allowed to get forward enough. He does interchange with Young a fair deal - usually after each corner.

Downing covers for Milner when he pushed forward. The first game Downing started for Villa, Milner was moved in off the wing to midfield, and he's been there ever since."

thats how i see it. you dont see downing pushing forward to the byline as much as he did at boro so he could put in those crosses. I think MON will be gone in the summer. new manager might see his strengths better. downing is excellent at keeping possession and rarely wasted a pass or gave teh ball away. johnson looks more exciting because he is just fast and tricky. against faster international fullbacks he will have quiet games

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/05/2010 17:44
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing is an average Premier League footballer. He's done extremely well to get the number of caps he has.

Capello had a look at him, rightly so, didn't like what he saw and discarded him.

darko_pancev Posted on 11/05/2010 17:45
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing has never looked anything but quiet against international fullbacks though, he is a quality plaer, not good enough to be starting for England in my opinion. he rarely gives the ball away your right but he doesnt take the kind of risks that5 can change a game and this is what hes up against as far as selection for the world cup is concerned, joe cole, lennon, maybe johnson and walcott can change a game, not saying they are better than downing but as far as selection goes i think this is what has led to him being dropped.

the lad will be back next season, hell never be a regular for england.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 11/05/2010 17:57
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

"Why can't people just accept that he's played on the left of a four-man midfield and rather than make excuses about what position O'Neil has played him in, just come to terms with the fact he hasn't done enough to justify an inclusion in the provisional England squad."

I think people are struggling to accept it because it isn't true.

He's mainly the played the 'Gareth Barry' position for Villa, just tucked inside which allowed Warnock to get forward. He hasn't played much on the left-wing, in fact Ashley Young has spent most of the season in that position. Downing's been inside-left, central-midfield and down the right this season.

Whenever i've seen him play for Villa, which has been quite a bit as they've had a lot of coverage this season, he's been in the central areas of the pitch.

O'Neill used him as a replacement for Gareth Barry.


Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/05/2010 18:23
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Downing and Young have predominantly played the wide role, with Downing given the freedom to move inside, from the games I've watched.

He hasn't really shone, but that's the Villa style, none of them do, very little flair and lots of percentage football. He's not the junior coming into a decent side now, he's the established player who is looked to for inspiration, if safety's your inspiration then he's your man.

mwelolo Posted on 11/05/2010 18:27
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

The thing that never fails to amuse me is that it is never Downing's fault, his under performing is always someone else's fault, be it full back, striker or manager.

Maybe, just maybe.......he's not all that.

Boromart Posted on 11/05/2010 18:33
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

So which of you Downing haters will step forward and say that he will never be picked for England again???

Boromad Posted on 11/05/2010 18:36
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Unless I'm wrong, Downing does also have an injury. In any event, anyone who doesn't think Downing is a quality player ought to have another look at the Uefa DVD.

Johnson has something different and the City fans I know think he is one of the best they have seen in recent years. They would pick him over SWP every day of the week. However, against a very good Spurs defence he struggled. It's too early for him to make any kind of real impact and I would be surprised if he made the 23. He might though be one of those players who gets his chance and takes it. Good luck to the lad.

mwelolo Posted on 11/05/2010 18:37
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm not a Downing hater, just a realist. I think he could get back in in the future if the current selections underperform or if there are significant injuries.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 11/05/2010 18:54
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Spurs fan at work said to me this afternoon that Downing "can't cross a ball". I told him he therefore knows nowt about football. One of his lackies then piped up that Capello obviously thinks the same since Downing is a winger and can't get in the squad. FFS!

Downing simply hasn't been able to get into his stride this season. 6 months out, including missing pre-season hasn't helped. Also, being played out on the right hasn't helped. I know Johnson's played on the right for Man City, but Downing's strength is his crossing, which as a left-footed player means he's less effective out there. Johnson's strength is his ability to beat his man. He's also got more tricks than Downing.

Maybe because Johnson is better on the right than Downing (as well as being good on the left), swayed it. I still think Downing is a better team player and should have been included in the 30. I'd also have put him in the 23, but as a Boro fan, I'm a wee bit biased.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 18:59
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

No need to say any more pete. you've shown who you are and what you're about. You've not answered the questions, missed the points I have actually made and replaced them with what you think I've said and have been extremely childish in the process.

I'll leave it at that.

darko_pancev Posted on 11/05/2010 19:05
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Adi, in no way am i siding with the this pete fella but who do you think is best form going into a world cup downing or johnson? i havent read the previous posts so sorry if youve already said.

petedreadnought Posted on 11/05/2010 19:29
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Well I have answered you questions Adi, you just don't like the answers you've got.

You can't use something to back up your points and that cry when it's thrown back in your face, *that's* what is childish.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 11/05/2010 19:53
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm surprised he's picked AJ ahead of Downing and cant help thinking its a mistake.

Johnson has played a handful of games in the PL and even less where he has made a big impression.

I think he'll get dropped from the 30, but then that leaves us very short on the left so maybe not?

The_263 Posted on 11/05/2010 20:17
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

As I've maintained for some time now Downing is a decent quality PL player but never had the spark at international level. He is the darling of the FMTTM clique wheras AJ has always been considered far inferior with an awful attitude. Some of us always maintained that AJ had more in his locker than SD and that potential would see him being selected for the England squad some time ago.

mwelolo Posted on 11/05/2010 20:26
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

He could still get in through the back door if other players get injured.

Adi_Dem Posted on 11/05/2010 21:09
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

darko - as I've said I don't mind debating anything with someone prepared to deal with it like an adult, which some posters are singularly incapable of doing.

In answer to your question, I don't think anyone can argue that over the last few weeks Johnson has been in better form than Downing. I still see fundamental flaws in Johnson's game and I don't think he's done enough to warrant a place in the final 23. However, as I've said countless times, if given the choice I would rather Johnson got picked than Downing simply because it benefits Middlesbrough so for me this is an excellent result for us.

If you want an impact sub then Johnson is a better bet than Downing I'd guess. If you want the better footballer of the two, at this stage, then Downing would be my pick.

Mavrick Posted on 11/05/2010 21:29
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I'm not surprised Downing isnt in and I'd rather have James Milner in over Downing anyway!

Senor_Chester Posted on 11/05/2010 21:29
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Think most England fans would have been disappointed to see Downing in the squad.

It's hardly a surprise he's not in there though as he simply hasn't done much for the last couple of years, I don't see anyone shocked because Micah Richards isn't included.

mwelolo Posted on 11/05/2010 21:34
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

I wonder how surprised the Villa fans are.

Tuncaythefunguy Posted on 11/05/2010 23:59
Downing's villa move has not paid off - he is out of WC

Just a Ironic point really.

If Downing had stayed then Johnson may still have been a Bench player hence him not going anywhere near the England Squad Hence Downning getting the Nod for the Left hand side after being sold in the January window.