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woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 15:16
The New Falklands War

On the face of it, I think we have no chance of hanging on this time around.......

The dispute that in 1982 led to an improbable war over the remote Falkland Islands is back, only this time it is not likely to end so well for the Brits. The Falklands War began when a faltering Argentine military dictator tried to resurrect his popularity by sending troops to seize the islands, claimed by Argentina as the Malvinas. It ended when Margaret Thatcher sent the Royal Marines to reclaim these sparsely populated rocks and rescue the British sheepherders who lived there from the unprovoked invasion. Thatcher's popularity soared. Now, however, oil has been discovered off the Falklands, and the dispatch of a huge British oil rig has triggered near unanimous protest from a continent where democracy has overtaken dictatorship almost everywhere, including Argentina. Even if Britain finds what it is looking for, up to 60 billion barrels of oil, it is also digging its way to the wrong side of history.

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Neither side is threatening gunplay, but the battle for global sentiment is going badly for Britain. Thatcher's triumph in the small war (255 Britons dead, 649 Argentines) drew strong support from Ronald Reagan and relatively mild criticism from Latin America (Argentine leader Leopoldo Galtieri was not a beloved figure), and led to the resounding 1983 reelection victory that in many ways capped Britain's global resurgence during the Thatcher era. Now Britain is led by an increasingly unpopular prime minister, Gordon Brown, presiding over a nation in economic decline, and looks a bit desperate grabbing for Falklands oil, when even Britain's special friends in Washington won't back Brown up. Far from rallying to the P.M.'s side, the Obama administration has declared U.S. neutrality on the dispute, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has offered to mediate. Britain promptly rejected the offer, and the British press attacked Clinton for handing Argentina a "propaganda coup." But by this time Britain was looking alone and out of touch. The Latin leaders denouncing Britain for imperialist overreach ranged from Hugo Chávez, the brazen Venezuelan, to Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the moderate who has made Brazil the China of Latin America—an emerging economic superpower that Britain can't afford to insult.

Meanwhile, Argentina's President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, of all people, is looking like the Iron Lady of this drama. Coming into this dispute, Kirchner was losing popularity due to economic stagnation. Now she has indeed been handed a coup—by Britain itself. Some 80 percent of Kirchner's countrymen believe the islands are part of Argentina, so she is pushing the issue hard. In February, Argentina responded to Britain's plans to drill by detaining a ship that Buenos Aires said was carrying tools for further British oil exploration, and announcing that any vessel crossing Argentine territorial waters must obtain a permit.

Britain rejected the decree, but Kirchner is winning allies. Two weeks ago she used a meeting of the Rio Group of 32 Latin American and Caribbean countries to elicit unanimous support for her position, including from Chile, which had covertly supported Britain in the 1980s dispute. A few days later, Argentina's Foreign Minister Jorge Taiana took this LatAm bloc backing to United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and called for the U.N. to condemn Britain's actions as a violation of numerous resolutions and to pressure it to come to the table. The request is still under review, and like Argentina's previous attempts to assert sovereignty over the islands, it is likely to have no real effect. Argentina has routinely filed legal claims on the Malvinas, but U.N. resolutions on the matter would have no force of law without their adoption by the Security Council, where the United Kingdom is a permanent member with veto power.

This time, though, Argentina is receiving far more vocal support for its position from its neighbors than ever before. On Feb. 23, Brazil's Lula lashed out: "What is the geographic, the political, or economic explanation for the U.K. to be in Las Malvinas?" he asked. "Could it be because the U.K. is a permanent member of the U.N.'s Security Council, where they can do everything and the others nothing?" Somewhat predictably, Chávez has also come out to turn the Falklands dispute into a cause célèbre for Latin America. If it comes to armed conflict, he warned, Argentina would not be alone. "Queen of England, I'm talking to you," he addressed the British monarch from his television show, Aló, Presidente. "The time for empires is over, haven't you noticed?" Bluster aside, he may have a point.

The Brown government has stated that Britain will maintain land, air, and maritime forces as a deterrent to protect both its commercial vessels and the Falklands, where an active force of more than 1,000 British troops are still stationed. But the continued protection afforded to the isolated islands, not to mention the cost to supply them, has been an economic inefficiency for Britain for decades. As far back as 1980, British parliamentarian Nicholas Ridley, a Conservative minister of state, proposed a plan to release ownership of the islands to Argentina, which would then lease back the territories to Britain, allowing the 3,100 occupants to remain British citizens but providing Argentina with some of the benefits of sovereignty. Ridley's proposal was shouted down in the House of Commons. But now support for spending money on the islands is low in Britain, at least compared with 1982. A recent Guardian editorial urged the government to reconsider Ridley's plan, arguing that the Falklands can no longer remain Britain's "expensive nuisance," because "the world will insist on it."

Indeed, the world has come a long way since Britain's last war over the islands. Democracy has swept across Latin America, and many of the traditional tensions between countries on the continent have been tempered, allowing for greater regional cooperation and economic integration. The potential value of the Falklands oilfields to Britain is obvious at a time when its North Sea reserves are drying up. But there is no telling how much oil is really there until exploration begins, making this an extraordinarily risky business proposition. Good relations with the emerging Latin trade bloc, led by Brazil, may be worth more in the long run, so Britain would be wise to accept mediation offers. After all, the increasing interdependence of Latin interests has enabled Kirchner to achieve a unified front for her diplomatic war on Britain, which in turn has secured a level of legitimacy for the continent that Britain and the rest of the world should not—and can no longer—ignore.

fylde_coast_pies Posted on 17/03/2010 15:24
The New Falklands War

Fcuk em! The first thing we should do is intern Tevez to disrupt their world cup plans[^]

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 15:27
The New Falklands War

LOL

We have no choice but to come to the table and thrash a deal out, we have no external support what so ever

mattrich Posted on 17/03/2010 15:31
The New Falklands War

There is no way we will get to keep the rights of any oil found there for ourselves, Argentina's claim has to much support, and more importantly USA aren't backing us because we didn't support them over the water boarding of the ethiopian, sorry english terror suspect.

Bernie_was_right Posted on 17/03/2010 15:38
The New Falklands War

"We have no choice but to come to the table and thrash a deal out, we have no external support what so ever"

What defeatist nonsence.

Presumably you`d have said the same when we stood alone against half the world in 1940?

It`s just some daft cow in Argie Bargie land trying to drum up some support before the election. They won`t invade cos they know what happened last time.

Biggest danger to the islands is that half out goverment thinks like you, and would rather give in with a wimper than stand up to a bully.

parmoboy Posted on 17/03/2010 15:39
The New Falklands War

Teesside aggro leading up to the world cup again just like 1982.They will be battling on the terraces again and Engerland will win (again) ad nauseum.[xx(]

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 15:44
The New Falklands War

I don't see defeatist stamped on my head and fact is we must make a deal as we are a weak power in the world today regarding this issue. Nobody is saying Argentina would be so silly to invade the Islands but they do have a solid case backed up by Brazil and the South American Union. Do you expect us to ignore the whole issue Bernie, It will not go away without some deal being made

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 17/03/2010 15:51
The New Falklands War

What is their solid case?

The fact they are the nearest nation to the Islands?

Nero Posted on 17/03/2010 15:51
The New Falklands War

The last time I looked the potential oil was in Falkland Island Waters...

The people of the Falklands are British and want to remain that way.

That should be the one and only consideration. They've voted on that in the past and if they wanted to be part of Argentina, they would be by now.

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 17/03/2010 16:01
The New Falklands War

we have a submarine down there, argies know what subs can do....ask them that recovered from the belgrano...British Islands...and they will stay that way.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 16:02
The New Falklands War

Solid case is that Historically the Islands do not belong to Britain, they are part of Argentina and how can an Island 8,000 miles from the UK be British ???
Yes People who live there are mostly of British decent and wish to remain so but it does not take away the fact of where the Island is and who it rightfully belongs to

Sitrep Posted on 17/03/2010 16:05
The New Falklands War

woodymfc

where did you copy this from?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 16:08
The New Falklands War

I found it on MSN this morning

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 17/03/2010 16:10
The New Falklands War

Woody, have you been living in dego-land too long? In 1982, our recapture of the islands was justified on the fact that the majority of the people there wanted to remain British. I can't remember, but we may have got UN backing on that. If so, that should remain the case.

jaybee Posted on 17/03/2010 16:12
The New Falklands War

What an idiot! Using the same logic then presumably the West Indies belong to the U.S.
The inhabitants of the Falklands have full rights to self determination. Why should the U.N. approve their colonisation by the Spanish and Italian colonisers of Argentina who destroyed the indigenous people of the land they now occupy?

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 17/03/2010 16:14
The New Falklands War

Historically Alaska was part of Russia - should the Yanks give it back?

What about Gibraltar? Melilla? Ceuta? Taiwan? Sakhalin?

Just because it used to be part of Argentina doesn't mean it is Argentinian territory.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 16:16
The New Falklands War

Not at all and I'm a proud Brit, but can't defend theft

I just see that we have to come to our senses on this issue regardless of whether we have submarines etc down there.

mattrich Posted on 17/03/2010 16:25
The New Falklands War

The most important thing is losing US support, regardless of if we have a sub there, this will be sorted out round a table rather than using conflict, we will hgain a share of any oil there with the majority going to Argentina and their supporters.

Sitrep Posted on 17/03/2010 16:28
The New Falklands War

i think Guantánamo Bay should be handed back to Cuba.

what do you think?

Nero Posted on 17/03/2010 16:31
The New Falklands War

Strictly speaking, I certainly see the benefit of actually opening discussions. As mentioned on this thread, Brazil could be a major player in the future and a country the UK will want to trade with.

However, the nonsense about where the Island is shouldn't matter. The people there voted to stay British and want to remain that way.

There must be loads of small Islands around the globe that are still part of France, Portugal, Spain, The UK and The Netherlands.

I guess they should all be handed over to the nearest country too.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 16:37
The New Falklands War

Nero [^] It's the only way "round the table"

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 17/03/2010 16:38
The New Falklands War

so woodymfc you are saying that we shoudl just forget about the 256/7 service people who where killed down there in 82....2 of which where very good friends of mine....we should just forget them.....wrong....those islands are british and should stay that way..if you are a diego sympathiser then so be it...but please dont be saying we should give back something which is and has been for hundreds of years British.

viva malvinas my arse.

mattrich Posted on 17/03/2010 16:41
The New Falklands War

Brown is willing to forget the 200+ that died in Afghanistan by handing payments to the taliban for keeping the peace, why should he care what happened 25+ years ago???

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 17/03/2010 16:42
The New Falklands War

"The Falklands War began when a faltering ........dictator tried to resurrect ... popularity"

That could so easily describe Thatcher.

joshie Posted on 17/03/2010 16:44
The New Falklands War

I suppose it is also about time the Australians gave back the whole country to the aborigines and the United States should hand over control of their nation to the American Indians?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 16:49
The New Falklands War

so woodymfc you are saying that we shoudl just forget about the 256/7 service people who where killed down there in 82....2 of which where very good friends of mine....we should just forget them.....wrong....those islands are british and should stay that way..if you are a diego sympathiser then so be it...but please dont be saying we should give back something which is and has been for hundreds of years British.

viva malvinas my arse.

The invasion and following conflict was stupidity from the offset provoked initially by a failing Gualtieres with many soldiers needlessly killed from both sides, I sympathise both ways on that score and have lost friends too under different circumstances so I know how that feels. All considered I don't think we should give back the Islands but should come to some agreement regarding the Oil which is the major reason for this latest spat of dispute with Argentina gaining lot's of support on the diplomatic front

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 17/03/2010 17:00
The New Falklands War

What if there is no oil, or oil that it isn't economically viable to extract?

will there be a demand to get round the table then from the Argies?

Methinks not.

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 17:05
The New Falklands War

Actually, the Argentinians have been periodically trying to get round the table for a long, long time.

I read somewhere that before the last war, Britain was making moves to return the Falklands to the Argentine with a lease back agreement.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 17/03/2010 17:07
The New Falklands War

I suppose the people running Argentina are native to South America since time began ?? They're all Spanish descendents from people who didn't give a monkey's about ethnic cleansing.
These islands have been British for over 150 years when nobody was really that fussed about them. A dictator tried to give himself a reputation by taking them and he got battered for the trouble. Some bint is losing the public vite because of economic difficulties so she sets her sights on 60bn quids worth of oil.
Just cos she is more diplomatically astute doesn't mean we should give in. The rest of South America couldn't really care less. Do you think Brazil is that fussed about giving 60bn worth of oil to a competing neighbour ?? Neither do I. Chavez ?? Never trust a President who has his only weekly show on TV.
Do you think any British Prime Minister will hand those islands back ?? Its like peeing on the graves of those guys and girls who gave their lives and a cast-iron defeat in the subsequent General Election
Its all talk.
Doesn't make any difference to Teesside ... Labour will still be elected.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 17:08
The New Falklands War

There is Oil and the feilds stretch right along the east coast of South America with the biggest finds out at sea being in Brazillian territory so far, Argentina begin their explorations this month....

HarryBasset Posted on 17/03/2010 17:19
The New Falklands War

The Grand Turk has sailed from Whitby. Officially sold to a French company but I just wonder?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 17:20
The New Falklands War

Here you go if you care to read


Link: History

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 17:46
The New Falklands War

Argentina has no valid historical claim to the Falklands beyond them being closer to them than any other country. Which isn't any kind of claim at all.

taz777 Posted on 17/03/2010 17:55
The New Falklands War

who give,s a fxxk petrol will still go up in price , do you think going to war over the falklands would benefit the working man /woman . quite the opposite as we would pay for it and fight it to line some oil tycoons pockets

taz777 Posted on 17/03/2010 17:58
The New Falklands War

p.s still got some mongrel puppie,s for sale , proper pedegree mongrels at that , bargain £350 sobs or two for £600 lubely jubely

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 17:59
The New Falklands War

It's ano brainer why we defend our rights as our economy is knackered.

btw,The first settlers on the Island were from Tierra del Fuego, now known as Argentina

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 17/03/2010 18:03
The New Falklands War

Can we give the Channel Islands back to France? Also divide GB up and hand it to the Scandinavians.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:05
The New Falklands War

Sorry I can't be taking a puppy onto an Oil and Gas construction project [;)]

SteveDuisburg Posted on 17/03/2010 18:07
The New Falklands War

I think Woody is being forced to type this, There is probaly an argie stood behind him with a gun pointed to his head[:D]
just wink if this is true woody and ill send the task force round[^]

Mojo Posted on 17/03/2010 18:07
The New Falklands War

"i think Guantánamo Bay should be handed back to Cuba.

what do you think?"

That's sarcasm right?

Guantanamo is leased.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:09
The New Falklands War

[;)]

Fletch Posted on 17/03/2010 18:10
The New Falklands War

woody you are a clueless buffoon son, pack it in while you are just loosing...

SteveDuisburg Posted on 17/03/2010 18:11
The New Falklands War

[^]

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 18:11
The New Falklands War

"btw,The first settlers on the Island were from Tierra del Fuego, now known as Argentina"

Maybe if they'd stayed more than a few years they might have a point.

taz777 Posted on 17/03/2010 18:14
The New Falklands War

woodymfc do want ,and i.m only doing this as a one off, a pedigree fish , sorry won,t have time to kc regiter so you you can have it at break my heart bottom of the barrel price , wait for it , £200 , don,t let on as people might take me for a mug[:D]

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:14
The New Falklands War

Cheers Fletch, It's interesting to see peoples opinions on this subject, Ive made mine what about you ?

Submarines or a Diplomatic conclusion

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 18:16
The New Falklands War

nuke Buenos Aires

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:17
The New Falklands War

What type of fish is it [?]

I can get a bag full of frozen Halibut here for £3

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 18:22
The New Falklands War

Clueless buffoon? Considering that we took those islands by force from the land now known as Argentina, I think he has a point.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:22
The New Falklands War

Brilliant Flaps [^]

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 18:27
The New Falklands War

"Considering that we took those islands by force from the land now known as Argentina, I think he has a point."

Do you think Argentines of Spanish descent are planning to give their property back to native south americans and return to europe?

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 18:32
The New Falklands War

"Do you think Argentines of Spanish descent are planning to give their property back to native south americans and return to europe?"

What on earth has that got to do with it?

Muttley Posted on 17/03/2010 18:34
The New Falklands War

Here's a simple question for you?

What constitutes a nation? Is it the people or the place they live?



(Ok, it's two but they are related)

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:35
The New Falklands War

Thankyou Angel, all said and done and what worries me as a consideration in the bigger picture is the plight of our country in the future if we don't go to the table and sort this out once and for all in a must be peaceful manner.
We are fast becoming economic minnows in this world and should realise that fact as not to be greedy by shooting our selves in the foot by being stubborn sabre rattlers.
The US too will be over shadowed by emerging markets in the world and should tread carefully ultimately with China who will become a world economic leading player along with Russia, Brazil and India

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 18:38
The New Falklands War

"What on earth has that got to do with it?"

If you're going to claim that we 'took' the land from the place now known as Argentina, why would you argue we give it to people who themselves took the land from the native population?

OxonBoro Posted on 17/03/2010 18:38
The New Falklands War


"btw,The first settlers on the Island were from Tierra del Fuego, now known as Argentina"

But did they have a flag ??

Sitrep Posted on 17/03/2010 18:38
The New Falklands War

Mojo

Your right about the sarcasm, and wrong about the lease,

It was signed over to the US at the turn of the century; you know the type of Treaty? When a Massive country comes up to the tiny country and says sign on the dotted line, Napoleon and Hitler used to do it a lot.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:40
The New Falklands War

Flaps, you should read all of the thread matey.


woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:42
The New Falklands War

Oxon I think they had a canoe and a football [fb]

Muttley Posted on 17/03/2010 18:43
The New Falklands War

Who cares what a few chuntering nazi shelterers think? We've got a big fcuk off submarine that says any invasion force had better be wearing water wings and be particularly strong swimmers if they set greedy flipper inside our territorial waters. Additionally if there are bazillions of barrels of oil there they can forget even thinking about it. As for economic problems, a few barrels of Brent Finest will see us ok for a few years.

If they ask nicely we might deign to land some of it in BA, so that the penguins don't get grubby.

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 18:44
The New Falklands War

"Flaps, you should read all of the thread matey."

I have. And Argentina still have no claim to the Falklands.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:54
The New Falklands War

I think they do have claims Flaps, but would like to think the sovreignty remains British and they sort the Oil business fair ans square ..

What do you make of this photo ?


Link: Obama/Kirchner

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 18:55
The New Falklands War

Flaps, it was Spanish speaking, just not called Argentina at the time.

We didn't steal the islands from the Aboriginals but from the people who inherited it when the Spanish left.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 18:57
The New Falklands War

Estas Muy correcto Senior [^]

proudas Posted on 17/03/2010 18:58
The New Falklands War

"Anyone who studies the tortuous history and law of the Falklands will know that Argentina's claim to the islands was certainly strong," Jenkins says. But their claim to a territory 300 miles away is neither logical nor valid. Falklands inhabitants did not replace an indigenous population because there was none. The islands were claimed by Britain in 1765, long before Argentina existed as a country, and have been permanently settled since 1833. Some families, like mine, can now boast eight or nine generations on the islands. The Falklands are an overseas territory of the UK, with internal matters governed by a democratically elected legislative assembly, of which I am a member.
say no more

Sitrep Posted on 17/03/2010 19:01
The New Falklands War

The End

almeria2005 Posted on 17/03/2010 19:03
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Tierra del Fuego is part argentinian and part chilean which part of Tierra del Fuego did the settlers come from, does Chile have a claim

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 19:03
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Good afternoon Falklander, I think using the word was should be changed to a fair is

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 19:04
The New Falklands War

proudas, I don't know where you got that from, but we took the islands by force after the Spanish had left.

Muttley Posted on 17/03/2010 19:14
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Not true.

Charles Darwin found the islands thus in 1833

"After the possession of these miserable islands had been contested by France, Spain, and England, they were left uninhabited. The government of Buenos Aires then sold them to a private individual, but likewise used them, as old Spain had done before, for a penal settlement. England claimed her right and seized them. The Englishman who was left in charge of the flag was consequently murdered. A British officer was next sent, unsupported by any power: and when we arrived, we found him in charge of a population, of which rather more than half were runaway rebels and murderers." (The Voyage of the Beagle.)

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 19:26
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Proudas runs away with a false statement [|)]

Understandable I suppose

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 19:33
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One thing is for certain, all this jingoistic hard man talk is a crock of s***e.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 19:34
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Which hard man ?

joshie Posted on 17/03/2010 19:36
The New Falklands War

How far do you go back with valid claims on an area of land? It could be argued the whole inhabited world should belong to Ethiopia, or is there a cut off point?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 19:39
The New Falklands War

It's a very valid point rasta man [:D]

Ethiopa belongs to Britain [^]

Mojo Posted on 17/03/2010 19:43
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Sitrep, it's a lease whether you like it or not.

flaps Posted on 17/03/2010 20:00
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"We didn't steal the islands from the Aboriginals but from the people who inherited it when the Spanish left."

My point has gone over your head.

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 20:03
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No it hasn't, I just don't agree with you. The point is we took the islands by force from the Spanish speaking inhabitants of the mainland.

Muttley Posted on 17/03/2010 20:07
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It's ok flaps he simply ignores anything which shows his argument up as vapid.

The 1833 comment from Charles Darwin I posted being a case in point. We tend to view the world of 1833 as being similar to our own, it wasn't. Islands such as the Falklands were still pretty much ungoverned by anyone. There might have been a flag over a building but as often as not there wasn't.

No-one wanted to live there, a few itinerant fishermen used the islands as a summer base retreating to mainland South America with the onset of winter. The only determinant of sovereignty (where there is no valid prior claim such as the lease deal for Hong Kong) is surely the wishes of the people. In this there is no doubt the people of islands wish to remain British (whatever that means). There are no displaced people like Palestinians or even direct descendants of displaced people. Indeed it is arguable whether anyone was every displaced when sovereignty reverted to Britain in 1833.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 20:14
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Solid post Muttley.
Let's look at today's facts as stated in detail above, we can't afford another conflict can we and feel we must mediate

junkyard_angel Posted on 17/03/2010 20:15
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That's the point though, Muttley. The Argentines claim that their people were expelled in 1833, though you will obviously ignore that.

I am being reasonable in recognising that they may have a legitimate claim, and I have no time for jingoism.

Sitrep Posted on 17/03/2010 20:19
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Sitrep, it's a lease whether you like it or not.


The Cuban-American Treaty was signed on February 17, 1903, by the first president of Cuba, Tomás Estrada Palma, and on February 23, 1903, by the president of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt. The treaty stipulates that Republic of Cuba will perpetually lease to the United States the Guantánamo Bay area (surrounding areas of land and water) for the purpose of coaling and naval stations. The United States will have absolute jurisdiction and control over the area and in return will recognize the Republic of Cuba's ultimate sovereignty over the area. Cuban vessels involved in trade or war will have free passage through the waters.

The government of Cuba believes it to be in violation of article 52 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which declares a treaty void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force.[1] However, Article 4 of the same document states that Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties shall not be retroactively applied to any treaties made before itself.[2] The treaty was part of the Platt Amendment, conditions for the withdrawal of United States troops remaining in Cuba since the Spanish–American War. Professor Alfred-Maurice de Zayas also argues that the United States has broken the terms of the treaty by allowing commercial use of the land and not giving Cuba ultimate sovereignty over the area.[3]

The ongoing detention of prisoners at the base is in itself said to constitute a violation of the original treaty, which explicitly states that the United States is allowed "generally to do any and all things necessary to fit the premises for use as coaling or naval stations only, and for no other purpose." Such argument thus hinges upon whether detention of prisoners is a valid role of a naval or coaling station.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 20:30
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[:D]

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 17/03/2010 20:38
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I'd be willing to swap the islands in exchange for the 86 world cup they nicked off us, Maradona convicted after a show trial for cheating and papers showing that Messi was in fact born in whinneybanks and is eligible to play for England. They can have the islands but we get to keep the oil like.

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 20:40
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Phone Gordon immediately [^]

Muttley Posted on 17/03/2010 20:53
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"The Argentines claim that their people were expelled in 1833, though you will obviously ignore that."

I haven't ignored it at all. I have disputed it. There is no evidence that anyone left the islands in 1833. The only inhabitants at the time were largely from a penal colony with some fishermen using the islands as a summer base. There was a disagreement over fishing rights.

"I am being reasonable in recognising that they may have a legitimate claim" No, you are simply accepting one side of the argument without balance.

The question I keep asking is a valid one. What constitutes a nation if not the wishes of it's people? There is no imperative on the UK to reach any agreement. None.

Remember we are dealing with a country that as recently as the eighties was lobbing political opponents out of helicopters.

I hardly think they have good governance on their list of attractions as to why the islanders might wish to be Argentine citizens...

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 21:05
The New Falklands War

It's going to be interesting how all this unfolds with the South American brothers clanning together. What I read and posted this morning is concerning

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 17/03/2010 21:12
The New Falklands War

so the people who live there..the british people who lve there..should be told..hey sorry mate your going to be a diego now....we have given the the islands back..i fekin dont think so......the islands are british end of story...as for the oil.....why havent the argies been testing for oil..???
as for the last was..thatcher ignored her inteligence....this time it appears we are on the ball....if the argies have another go then its time to bomb the main land..end of !!

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 21:16
The New Falklands War

LOL Bomb the main land, that would be the biggest mistake we would ever have made !!!!

BTW, The Argies are testing for Oil

zaphod Posted on 17/03/2010 22:25
The New Falklands War

Argentina are not going to war over this & they have virtually no leverage, regardless of the totally valueless statements of support from neighbouring nations. It's just sabre-rattling from an unpopular President.

Geeeeeeezette Posted on 17/03/2010 22:28
The New Falklands War

Woodymfc

Are you a Diego or a Hippie? [8D]

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 22:39
The New Falklands War

Peace Brother [^]

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 17/03/2010 23:19
The New Falklands War

Would it help if we gave them back Julio Arca as a compromise?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 23:22
The New Falklands War

I'd pay his plane fare mate [^]

All the same he's been a good lad and had his best days behind him, we have no choice but to stick him in the current team

Anubis Posted on 17/03/2010 23:29
The New Falklands War

Can't we move the Islands (like they did in Lost) closer to the UK ?

woodymfc Posted on 17/03/2010 23:46
The New Falklands War

Did you know that scientists reckon those Islands once belonged to the African continent millions of years ago [?]

Maybe we can do a deal with our mate Nelson

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/03/2010 00:23
The New Falklands War

"Solid post Muttley.
Let's look at today's facts as stated in detail above, we can't afford another conflict can we and feel we must mediate"

So we give in to threats and force??

We can afford to defend the Islands, the means of defence just have to be different this time. If the Argentinians see the Islands as a legitimate target then the same applies to mainland Argentina from our point of view.
As for the rest of South American opinion, bolloccks to them, it's a corrupt drug ridden shoythole of a continent any way.

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 15:51
The New Falklands War

Couldnt agree more but it appears we have some tree huggers on here who would rather just let things be and give the islands back...fekin pussies.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 15:56
The New Falklands War

Tree huggers LOL

Erm..... not give the Islands back and what will happen if say there was no Oil ? would we still pump millions in ? What would be the benefit of that as our home economy is knackered

Old_Gregg Posted on 18/03/2010 15:59
The New Falklands War

That doesn't make much sense woody. What would we pump millions into if there was no oil? We would still keep the islands of course, as the majority of people living there want us to.

Should we give Gibraltar back to the Spanish? It's the exact same situation, just without the oil. Most people living in Gibraltar want to stay British, just as the Falklands do; why should we ignore them?

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:04
The New Falklands War

Fair enough Gregg, I'm only asking a question

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 16:06
The New Falklands War

woody at this moment in time there is NO oil and we are putting money in...so whats new.....as has been said the people are british and want to remain british, hence the 82 war....whats your problem with keeping the falklands..???
as we have kept them for hundreds of years.

robbso Posted on 18/03/2010 16:10
The New Falklands War

To be fair,we were told during the conflict in 1982 that there was a strong possibility of huge oil reserves which would explored.

A bit of a pisher for the brave souls who gave their lives for the freedom of the Islands and Islanders if they just handed them back.Not to mention the Bennies who inhabit the place.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:16
The New Falklands War

Before this 82 war we were in the throws of handing the Islands back to Argentina, that cements some recognition by us that it was not ours ever and a finacial liablity, until we realised the outlying sea area's may contain large deposits of oil. Is that not the main reason we defended a piece of land some 8,000 miles from our own shores ?

Fletch Posted on 18/03/2010 16:18
The New Falklands War

More total BOLLIX from the master historian...

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:21
The New Falklands War

Robbso, good point but we were going to dump the Falklanders before the conflict

The_same_as_before Posted on 18/03/2010 16:23
The New Falklands War

Money comes before morality, so, no they will stay British.

Old_Gregg Posted on 18/03/2010 16:23
The New Falklands War

No we weren't. We were planning talks about shared governing, not the same as dumping the islands.

robbso Posted on 18/03/2010 16:25
The New Falklands War

Can"t argue with that Woody cos i dont know enough about it,just telling you what we were told,bearing in mind not many of us even knew where the place was.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:25
The New Falklands War

Fletch, I have an opinion, a courtious one so why revert to toilet dialog.

Tell me why we are in Iraq and Afghanistan..........

Old_Gregg Posted on 18/03/2010 16:25
The New Falklands War

"Money comes before morality, so, no they will stay British"

Don't really understand that one. Are you saying you think it would be moral to force thousands of British people, who wish to remain British citizens, to become citizens of Argentina?

junkyard_angel Posted on 18/03/2010 16:26
The New Falklands War

Yes Greg, the idea was to return sovereignty with a lease deal similar to Hong Kong.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:32
The New Falklands War

The lease proposal was apparently laughed out of the House of Commons, the same paper has come to resurface recently being again an option.


woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 16:48
Money comes before Morality

In 1976, after a military junta took control of the country, Argentina covertly established a military base on Southern Thule. It was discovered by the British Antarctic Survey ship RRS Bransfield in 1977. The British protested but restricted their response to a diplomatic protest. Backing up the diplomatic efforts, the British Prime Minister Jim Callaghan sent a naval task force consisting of surface ships and a nuclear submarine. Nevertheless Argentine aircraft and warships harassed ships fishing in Falkland waters.

Lord Shackleton's report was delivered in 1977 and documented the economic stagnation in the islands. It nevertheless concluded that the islands made a net contribution to the British economy and had economic potential for development. Recommendations included oil exploration, exploitation of the fisheries, extension of the Stanley runway, the creation of a development agency, the expansion of the road network, expansion of the facilities at Stanley harbour and the breakdown of absentee landlord owned farms into family units. The report was largely ignored at the time, as it was felt that acting upon it would sour relations with Argentina. A reprise of the report by Lord Shackleton in 1982 following the Falklands War became the blueprint for subsequent economic development of the islands.


The_same_as_before Posted on 18/03/2010 16:52
Money comes before Morality

No I am suggesting that people do not come into it, well OK a very poor second.
Ask the Clampets.

zaphod Posted on 18/03/2010 16:58
Money comes before Morality

When Britain colonised the place Patagonia wasn't even part of Argentina.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 17:15
Money comes before Morality

Nicholas Ridley's proposal can be found on here

Zaphod, Historically Britain have made many attempts from all directions to get a foot hold in South America


Link: snippet

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 17:23
Money comes before Morality

woody..why are we in afghanistan..???

Iraq oil probably but afghanistan has fek all !!!!

FI...because the people are british.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 17:31
Money comes before Morality

that's why we are in


Link: Afghan

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 18/03/2010 17:35
Money comes before Morality

Cradle of Civilisation I always assumed. [8)]

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 17:38
Money comes before Morality

[:D][^]

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 17:41
Money comes before Morality

thats was from 2001.....wheres the oil....???

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 17:51
Money comes before Morality

Still in the ground mate, have you not heard there is a wee spot of bother there at the moment

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 18:38
Money comes before Morality

woody i think you are a diego lover...end off

Fletch Posted on 18/03/2010 18:53
Money comes before Morality

The weather...

red_shamrock Posted on 18/03/2010 18:54
Its a poor country

Its a poor Country maybe we could give them a share.

red_shamrock Posted on 18/03/2010 18:58
Its a poor country

Isnt it 1200 miles from Argentina to the Falkland isles...hardly a short distance is it....it may well belong to Ireland.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 19:00
Its a poor country

Nah, I'm not a Diego lover......all people are equal for me

I just have my opinion which I find fair and find it interesting what my fellow Boro fans have to say on the matter. Submarines and all [:D]

junkyard_angel Posted on 18/03/2010 19:07
Its a poor country

It's nearly 1200 miles from Buenos Aires To Stanley but only about 350 miles between the nearest points.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 19:09
Its a poor country

about 600 km shamrock


Link: map

red_shamrock Posted on 18/03/2010 19:22
Its a poor country

Chile is also in the strait of Magellan ,it must only be two mile behind the Argies to stake a claim.

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 19:35
Its a poor country without Oil

[^]

whale_oil_beef_hooked Posted on 18/03/2010 19:51
Its a poor country without Oil

No submariner here, i was surface fleet along with my 2 buddies killed in 82 on HMS Antelope..

woodymfc Posted on 18/03/2010 19:53
Its a poor country without Oil

Sorry to here that mate...........