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ThePrisoner Posted on 27/02/2010 18:57
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

His foot is just hanging loosely. Absolute shocker by Shawcross [V][V][V]

agibbo Posted on 27/02/2010 18:58
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

poor bloke....looked awful...shawcross looked gutted as well noone means to do that

dave42 Posted on 27/02/2010 18:58
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

what do you expect of stoke they are a team of thugs

leroy Posted on 27/02/2010 18:59
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

they wont even show it on sky....shawcross was gutted with himself

Michael_Debeve Posted on 27/02/2010 19:00
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

What happened? I left the room

leroy Posted on 27/02/2010 19:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

a 50-50 shawcross v ramsey ramsey came out worst, sky wouldnt show reply, apparantly too bad an injury to show[V]

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 27/02/2010 19:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

What happened?

Was it as bad as Taylor on Eduardo?

Stanley_Downing Posted on 27/02/2010 19:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Hope Ramsey can make a good recovery, he's only young but could hamper his development. Some players aren't ever the same after a bad injury.

If i was an Arsenal fan i'd hate Stoke so much at the minute.

bevoboro Posted on 27/02/2010 19:03
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Arsenal have had some shockers, first Eduardo and now Ramsey [B)]

Borointheskywithdiamonds Posted on 27/02/2010 19:03
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Do you think it'll be on MOTD?

agibbo Posted on 27/02/2010 19:05
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Theyll show it real time i reckon but no replays

Stanley_Downing Posted on 27/02/2010 19:06
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

If it's same as Eduardo tackle i'm sure Match of the day showed it as it happened but then didn't replay it.
Might replay it as it's on later at night though.

collo1875 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:06
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

ive rewound it on sky+
i think it was a 50-50, and no intention to hurt him
think the arsenal player was just slightly quicker and moved the ball away and took the the full power of the tackle
no doubt venger will have a different view
anyway thats my opinion

byrno Posted on 27/02/2010 19:07
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Hard to say if it was a bad tackle, even from rewind on sky plus, but his leg was just hanging. The reaction of Shawcross says it wasn't a milicious challenge but both sets of players looked sick. Hopefully a clean break and he will make speedy recovery.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 27/02/2010 19:09
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Shawcross looked genuinely gutted at what happened, and in fairness the commentators actually doubted that the foul itself was a red card offence, but thought that the injury influenced the decision (I wasn't actually watching as it happened).

Damn shame though, Ramsey is a talented youngster, but unfortunately these things happen in football.

ChrisTheRed Posted on 27/02/2010 19:11
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It was a50 50 I looked at it on sky plus.

No red card - yellow yes but not a sending off.

collo1875 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:11
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

i didnt think it was a red
but either way shawcross couldnt of played on just by his own reaction alone

boringblock_21 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:13
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Can't help but feel for Ramsey, and at the same time have some sympathy with Shawcross who clearly didn't mean to do it .

SanFranJuninho Posted on 27/02/2010 19:24
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

just turned fox on and they keep mentioning it, saying how bad it was. i havent seen it. makes me feel sick horrific injuries like that of david busst and eduardo. its a real shame as ramsey certainly looked as if he could have been a great player, i hope he can recover and return with the same potential.

good luck to the lad

borojonboy Posted on 27/02/2010 19:27
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

They just showed it on the channel 4 news, just in real time, just showed you it hanging with sol campbell going mad!
All the best to him...looks like he'll need it!

NedKat Posted on 27/02/2010 19:33
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

No intent whatsoever, completely 50/50 ball .. Should never have been a red card, but the ref probably had no other option.

The look of shock on the other players faces showed how bad the injury was.

bororob Posted on 27/02/2010 19:36
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

zoom in on picture looks bad


Link: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11670_59881

reggie01 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:37
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I think its an accident, Shawcross isn't even tackling with his right foot. He is planting his right foot to go for the ball with his left and he's just planted it on Ramsey by accident..

The Taylor Eduardo was different Taylors was a mistimed tackle

thelodger Posted on 27/02/2010 19:42
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Not sure why he was sent off, 50/50 ball and he went for it.

Doesn't look good for the kid mind.


Link: Accident

rick4974 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:45
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Wenger is on tv crying about the 3 tackles over the years and stating there is some sort of agenda towards his players. 50/50 for me but watch arsenal witch hunt shawcross like they did Taylor at brim over the eduardo leg break.


stampysdog Posted on 27/02/2010 19:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

How can it not be a red card?

I'm pretty sure breaking someones leg in a tackle is classified as violent conduct...or am I mis-interpreting the rule?

rick4974 Posted on 27/02/2010 19:52
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

So what about henrick Larson at Celtic when he broke his leg? Nobody touched him as it happened as he was running. Should somebody have been sent off fir that?

Injuries happen on good or bad tackles.

Hercules Posted on 27/02/2010 20:00
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Never a red card.

axel1974 Posted on 27/02/2010 20:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

that was never a red card....... very unlucky on the lad

stampysdog Posted on 27/02/2010 20:05
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

rick, I know what you mean, but that's not exactly what I said.

Surely if two players go in for a tackle, and one of them doesn't get any of the ball, and ends up breaking the other guys leg, then it must be violent conduct?

mickbrown Posted on 27/02/2010 20:06
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

"Wenger is on tv crying about the 3 tackles"

Funny that - the tvvt saw nowt wrong with Gallas on Davies the other week. Or Diaby going over the ball to break Campos ankle a few years back.

The bloke is an utter bellend.

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 27/02/2010 20:06
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Whilst I think Shawcross made a genuine attempt for the ball and it's rare that players are malicious, teams do go out with a clear aim to rough up Arsenal. I can sympathise with Wenger and Fabregas's complaints.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 27/02/2010 20:09
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I think teams do target Arsenal, there's no dispute over that and Stoke play the way they play.


mickymacc Posted on 27/02/2010 20:13
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

"or am I mis-interpreting the rule"-Yes I think you are.The ref has to decide the level of intent and the nature of the tackle,ie deliberately going in knee high and two footed.That was a 50-50 ball that both players were entitled to go for.

dave42 Posted on 27/02/2010 20:13
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

stoke are thugs , wish we had a bit of their aggression

Keverson Posted on 27/02/2010 20:18
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

The tackle may not have caused it.


Link: Before Shawcross' tackle

SanFranJuninho Posted on 27/02/2010 20:28
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

keverson, i think this pic was taken just after shawcross's leg has hit ramsey's...not 100% tho?


Warwick_Hunt Posted on 27/02/2010 20:33
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

After watching it a couple of times it seems a bit innocuous - both players were going whole heartedly for the ball.

It reminded me of the David Busst incident - there was absolutely no one at fault.

Having said that I've only seen it from the one angle.

HolgateCorner Posted on 27/02/2010 20:42
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I have no sympathy with Stoke or the player sent off, these type of 'accidents' only happen when there is a degree of recklessness involved in the style of play and a disregard for the danger being caused.

The last couple of incidents I can remember like this are Cattermole on Digard and Pog on that Possebon bloke. In both cases the arguments about playing the ball were trotted out but dangerous challenges are dangerous challenges and the player mentally 'steeled up' to do the challenging isn't the one getting injured.

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 20:46
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Every football fan closes rank and protects an offender when a reckless challenge does serious damage.

I had the same scrap on here over the Taylor/Eduardo 'tackle'.(out and out assault)

I have not seen this latest one yet so I will hold back on causing another drunken scrap.[^]

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 27/02/2010 20:52
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Deffo a 50/50 challenge... no way he intended to do that and he was almost crying when he came off for what he'd done...Stoke should feel hard done to with the red card. Hope the young lad recovers fully, he was just unfortunate same as Eduardo was.

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 20:54
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Eduardo was not unfortunate.[;)]

Taylor did him.[;)]

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 27/02/2010 20:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I saw that game live and thought Taylor was unlucky to get yellow...wasnt a hard challenge, just one of those things. Still he's back and playing again so good for him. You reckon Ramsey should give Atha & Co a call?

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 20:58
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I wouldn't say Eduardo was back and playing exactly. He will never be anywhere near what he was.
The guy is finished at that level.

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 27/02/2010 21:06
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Perhaps JT but do you remember what Henrik Larsson did after the same thing?... he was probably better. However, for every Henrik Larsson there are probs 15 Dave Bussts!

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:12
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Sorry Billy. We will have to agree to disagree.
If a player (Taylor) goes into a challenge heel first, knee locked straight, he has only on e intention.
We've all played this game. We all know the score.
He probably wasn't trying to break his leg, but he was trying to let him know early on in the match that he was in for a hard time.

Does that not ring a bell with every player on here.[;)]

Manfriday Posted on 27/02/2010 21:15
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

keverson, that pic looks like its before shawcross touches him. sol campbell makes himself look a completeXXXXXX afterwards

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 27/02/2010 21:17
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Fair play fella...i have to say i never played football at any level, i was more rugby and uppercuts in the scrum. But we do agree he didn't go into it looking for that result... Least if Ramsey comes back and he's slow and rubbish we know why, stll scratching my head on certain Boro players in the last 15 years!

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 21:26
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

"Does that not ring a bell with every player on here.[;)] ?? "
nope it doesn't

knee locked / leg full stretch means you are exactly that .. getting to the ball as soon as you can

in addition it is a case of
(a) win the ball
(b)protect myself brace for impact
(c)hope they can take the physical force and don't get injured

would describe myself as a "physical centre half", and have put many many tackles in to show I am stronger and more powerful than they are, thats my advantage.. otherwise I'd be on the wing

its not about "giving anyone a hard time"

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:29
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I've just seen a photo of tonight's incident.
Going by the photo only, it does look like a 50/50 incident in this case.
I will still wait for further evidence before I let you all know what really happened.[;)][smi]

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:34
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

outoftown, you have just backed my case.

Most of the time, a pplayer sees the bad challenge coming. Occasionally however, his studs are planted in the grass.
This is when your

'(a) win the ball
(b)protect myself brace for impact
(c)hope they can take the physical force and don't get injured'

shocking tackle does serious injury.


If you think like that, you are a typical Sunday morning drunken, coke filled thug with a pair of football boots.


We are talking about professional footballers here.

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 21:37
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

far from it... as it happens

but either way it makes little difference...

can you suggest how to tackle at full stretch then?

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:44
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Sorry pal, but Taylor was not at full stretch.

There are plenty of videos on youtube. Try watching a couple of them.[;)]

If he was at 'full stretch' he would probably be leading with his toe.[;)]

Ottos_heine Posted on 27/02/2010 21:49
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Make football a totally no contact sport then......With every tackle there is an outside chance of an injury like this.

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 21:51
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

wasn't referring to taylor's tackle ... as it happens don't remember thinking what he did was malicious

more the leg locked, studs showing tackle (especially at ball height)

I also can't remember ANY 50/50 slide tackler leading with their toe

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:53
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Actually Otto, there is a chance of injuries like this in any contact sport.


It does appear that tonight's incident is pure accident.


Certain previous incidents however, are not accidents. If it's an accident, I have no problem with that. Etc. etc.....

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 21:55
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Sorry outoftown, but when you quoted me, and got into my conversation, I assumed you were talking about that challenge.

That's what I was talking about.

Ottos_heine Posted on 27/02/2010 21:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

To be fair i havent seen the incident,and have no intention of doing so.I think football is a much faster moving game now.........Back in the day i dont remember any appalling injuries like this,and 60s and 70s football is perceived as being much more brutal!

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 21:57
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

no worries ( centre half union) [;)]

Hercules Posted on 27/02/2010 22:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Taylor on Eduardo was a simple case of Eduardo getting to the ball fractions of a second before Taylor and planting his foot where the ball would have been.

A red card because Taylor committed himself and was late, but assault? No way.

From that picture it looks as though Ramsey has done himself the injury. It would be impossible for Shawcross to make firm enough contact with Ramsey and then bring his leg back.

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 22:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

in regards to injuries nowadays there are 3 main factors imo

a) the athletic ability and physical differences between players now... take walcott's build and micah richards .. players are developed for thier specific role

(b) there is far less physical contact encouraged or practiced throughout their careers; players struggle to take the impact.. and those doing the impact are faster stronger etc

(c) the advances in the medical side , in conjuction with the silly wages , means they don't have to play to get rich ... and clubs sh'yte themselves insurance and investment wise

bevoboro Posted on 27/02/2010 22:04
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It was a 50/50 ball to be fair, Shawcross didnt really have his foot high either. Wenger, Campbell and Fabregas have made themselves look like idiots over this.

Im all for outrage after outrageous challenges but this seems like a sad accident to me.

Johnny_Thunder Posted on 27/02/2010 22:09
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Yes I agree. You are all correct.[^]

Taylors foot was only 2-3 inches from the deck. Not 8 inches.

He didn't have time to see that Eduardo had done him for pace.

He didn't have time to unlock his leg.

He didn't have time to stop his 14 stone from going through Eduardo.



Yeah right.
If it was a Boro player, I just wonder what the opinions would have been.[;)]

Hercules Posted on 27/02/2010 22:22
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Glad we've shown you the light.

Vespa-Scooter Posted on 27/02/2010 22:22
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

No injury was intended,Shawcross was genuinely distraught.Hope Aaron recovers soon.

Manfriday Posted on 27/02/2010 23:08
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Just seen it again on MOTD and i swear he breaks his own leg. His studs stick in the grass and he goes over on his ankle

12_Afonso Posted on 27/02/2010 23:19
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Its a 50/50 tackle which both players are entitled to challenge for, unfortunately for Ramsey, Shawcross was a little high.

Horrible injury to a great talent, but the ref was influenced by the injury, Id have said it was a yellow card tbh. Absolutely no malice or intent and Shawcross is just looking to play the ball. I feel sorry for Ramsey obviously, but Shawcross looked deeply affected.

EDIT. Ive just seen Keversons picture of 'before' the challenge. It'll be interesting to see if theres any confirmation of this. Shawcross looked gutted.

Top_Dog Posted on 27/02/2010 23:27
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Fabregas and Campbell really need thier heads looking at. It was a 50-50 ball! Just an unfortunate outcome it was never a red card.

But Fabregas and Campbell both go to the ref and linesman to try and get the player sent off! That reaction sickens me as ther team 'mate' is laying on the floor in pain all they can think about is what happens to Shawcross.


12_Afonso Posted on 27/02/2010 23:30
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Id agree, the ref is definitely influenced by the floppy leg and reaction.

Shawcross is in tears, trying to apologise to the kid, and the Arsenal players push him away. I liked Arsenal, not anymore like.
That said Im sure Ramsey will appreciate it.


WillMunny Posted on 27/02/2010 23:44
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

FFS it is clearly over the top of the ball!

Yes I actually have some sympathy for Shawcross as I have no doubt at all that he didn't intend to cripple Ramset. But.......a reckless driver that doesn't mean to cripple a young kid whilst speeding is still guilty of reckless driving.

Football is all about opinions and you are all entitled to your own. But for all those saying its not a red card........really? You can go over the top of the ball and snap the opponents leg and it is only worthy of a yellow?

12_Afonso Posted on 27/02/2010 23:46
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

If you look at Keversons image, Shawcross' foot is on the floor.
Id probably say his foot was on the floor but its a different part of the leg that causes the break. Which isnt going over the ball.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/02/2010 23:47
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

For me it's dangerous. It's high, it's overly aggressive and is certainly reckless.

Definite red for me.

Towell Posted on 27/02/2010 23:49
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Not a bad tackle, shame Ramseys foot was bearing weight and studs in the ground.


Manfriday Posted on 27/02/2010 23:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Are people not looking at keversons image? His leg is broken before shawcross touches him

outoftowned Posted on 27/02/2010 23:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

unless I saw it wrong.. motd showed a (possible) impact photo of shawcross just missing, some of the side of the ball

not over the top , and unless he is GSP, he is trying to kick the ball , and not shin kick an opponent

12_Afonso Posted on 27/02/2010 23:53
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I know Manfriday, Ive coupled that photo with the youtube realtime video. Theres NO way Shawcross' leg comes backwards, at all, after the challenge.

gurthy Posted on 27/02/2010 23:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Did you not watch match of the day ?
they froze it in a replay just as Shawcross' foot kicked Ramseys shin. It wasnt broke before the challenge.

Manfriday Posted on 27/02/2010 23:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Alfonso, even MOTD didnt mention it after showing a pic showing his leg was well broken before any impact. I imagine its quite easy to break your leg if your studs dig in and you go over your foot at speed

boro_exile Posted on 27/02/2010 23:57
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

i've watched it in very slo mo a few times now in order to make an informed opinion:

ramsey was airborne as he came into the challenge and, as keverson's link shows, ramsey lands very awkwardly on the side on his foot/ankle a fraction of a second before shawcross makes contact in what was a fully committed challenge, he was definitely going for the ball, not the man and not too high or with studs showing. verdict: a horrible injury, but shawcross is not guilty of a career-threatening bad tackle, just a somewhat clumsy 50/50 with a bad outcome. speedy recovery to ramsey and for shawcross, dont beat yourself up too much over it (although as someone as MOTD eluded to without a history of bad challenges, he probably will)

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/02/2010 23:58
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Much as I would like to think it wasn't Shawcross that caused the break I think it was. I don't think that image proves much. The angle he comes off at after the tackle means this could have been taken after the impact. Look at where the advertising hoardings are and then look at the video - the angle that Shawcross ends up at after impact.

Also, Shawcross' reaction tells the tale.

There is no doubt in my mind that it was the tackle that did it.

Manfriday Posted on 27/02/2010 23:59
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Shakes head. Gurthy can you explain keversons picture? Does shawcross go through his leg, breaking it, then bounce back 6 inches?

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:00
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I didnt watch it gurthy.

Im getting conflicting reports from MOTD. Either way, its not a red card challenge for me. Even IF Keversons photo is just before the challenge, Shawcross' foot is on the ground.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:00
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

12 afonso and all the other deniers....

keverson's still proves nothing. the ball has gone, contact has already been made.

if you have seen the motd footage, you must see that shawcross is right over the ball. if you haven't seen it, then wtf are you doing argiung over a still photo?

but if you all insist there was nothing wrong with the challenge, then why on gods green earth did pulis say the following;

newyddion Posted on 28/02/2010 00:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It was a nothing tackle. Not a red card.

I feel REAL bad for Ramsey tho, could be the end of his career [xx(]

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It is a bad challenge but I know Shawcross, I signed him as a 19-year-old.

"He has got no bad blood in him whatsoever and there is no way in a million years he would ever go out to hurt anybody. I really mean that.

"Everyone else at this football club sends their condolences on the incident, we wish him well for a speedy recovery and as a fellow Welshman I am devastated.

"But Ryan has come off the pitch broken-hearted, met his mum straightaway and gone straight home.

"For me the game is insignificant, the incident has really spoiled it."

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

There it is.

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 00:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Yeh the photo is definatley after the challenge, the point where it was froze on motd shows Ramseys leg straight before impact.

Manfriday Posted on 28/02/2010 00:04
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Shawcross is upset because he believes he is 100 percent to blame for the injury

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:04
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

That quote means nothing to me. People say things in the heat of the moment, ala Wenger with the Eduardo incident, who later apologised. If its in a post match interview, its entirely possible that Pulis hasnt fully seen the challenge and is reacting on reaction only.

Stanley_Downing Posted on 28/02/2010 00:05
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Keverson's photo does seem to show his leg is broken before the tackle. Wonder if any of the media will pick up on this or just try and blame Shawcross.

The lads made the England team tonight, so hopefully he can get his head right.

piston_broke Posted on 28/02/2010 00:07
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

While i think that Ramsey was very unlucky with his injury i dont think there was any intent from shawcross.....it looked a 50/50 challenge ...... i sincerly hope ramsey recovers quickly ..good luck fella [^]

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:09
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Keverson's picture is after the impact. Shawcross goes over the ball and then his foot goes into the ground. Ramsay's leg snaps and is pushed back after the impact.

Is it really so hard to comprehend?

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:10
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I honestly think once things have calmed down, that Shawcross wont be blamed. Sometimes these things happen in contact sport, its unfortunate yes, but they happen.

Manfriday Posted on 28/02/2010 00:12
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Willmunny, so does shawcross bounce back 6 inches?

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 00:13
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

he hasnt bounced back, its a follow through and he is at the side of him in the pic. Its pretty obvious when you see it on motd.
Just look at where the ball is.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:15
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Is that a serious question manfriday?

No shawcross's leg goes forward, from a high position into the ground. Ramsay's leg snaps in half and is pushed back by the force of the challenge. It is so clear I cant believe anyone that has watched it properly can be so blind.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 00:16
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

As I say, much as I would prefer it not to have been Shawcross, it was. It's as simple as that.

I don't think he intended to hurt him by the way but I still think a red card was the correct decision.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:19
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Jeez, I despair.

Shawcross has now been quoted on SSN saying he is so sorry and didn't mean it and hopes Ramsey makes a full recovery.

If he didn't touch him, surely that statement would be "I'm sorry for Aaron, but don't blame me, I was nowhere near him, his leg just snapped in the ground. If you don't believe me, just look at Kleverson's picture!"

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:19
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Shawcross' foot is on the deck. Its a different part of the leg that causes the break, because Ramsey swings to kick the ball, he hits Shawcross' leg with his shin/wherever and his leg breaks there.

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 00:21
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Nah his foot is on the deck in the pic after the incident but on the replay his foot hits ramseys shin and it breaks

12_Afonso Posted on 28/02/2010 00:24
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Nowhere has shown a replay?

Stanley_Downing Posted on 28/02/2010 00:26
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

To be honest i didn't see it on match of the day and all i've seen is that picture of the incident so fair enough.

Still hope Wenger doesn't lead some sort of crusade against him and try to get him a longer ban then the automatic 3 match one he will recieve.

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 00:28
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Match of the day showed the real time and then when talking about it they froze it just as Shawcross' foot kicked Ramseys shin breaking his leg.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:42
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

As stated earlier afonso, the motd replay clearly shows the incident. I'm trying to be fair here, but really if you are going out on a limb based on a single still photo, despite shawcross and pulis admitting it was a bad tackle, then you are one deluded individual.

outoftowned Posted on 28/02/2010 00:43
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

no need to worry about wenger .. consistantly as ever he gets all persecutory and dellusional about stuff ..

" there are no coincidences " ..

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 00:52
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

ok fair enough, there are only coincidences.

4 arsenal players have sustained broken legs in tackles in the past 3 seasons. I'm guessing that is the norm?

outoftowned Posted on 28/02/2010 01:02
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

nope ... it IS a combination of
* unlucky
* a perception that you can intimidate them/ be physical and get a result ,
* a reliance on small,nimble and fast orientated players
* an over focus on "broken legs", the tackler today had far more right and chance of winning the ball than say .. petrov (i think for villa) on downing

outoftowned Posted on 28/02/2010 01:09
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

along with many other things ... but to suggest or imply , as he did , that the tackle today was "unacceptable" and they are targeted by unacceptable tackling; is both foolish and unfair to shawcross

what happened to mendes v man city is unacceptable, much like the two footed, late and knowing it, stuff from gerrard in his earlier days,
or the eboue kick to downing 2 years ago and ballack today even .. no chance of getting the ball whatsoever

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 01:25
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I understand where you are coming from. Downing broke his foot in an innocuous challenge from Petrov last year, whilst the worst tackle I can recall at the Riverside ever was Lauren on Downing in the first 10 mins, but Downing jumped out of the way to avoid a snapped leg and Lauren got away with it.

Hey listen guys, I'm not saying Shawcross should be strung up. He didn't mean to cripple Ramsay and he is clearly devastated by what he has done. But for crying out loud, it was an awful challenge that neither player, manager or club has tried to deny, yet there are loads of people on here claiming it was barely a foul and that Ramsey's leg snapped on its own. Well that is, IMHO, wrong and disrespectful to Ramsay.

Thank god Shawcross has the decency to accept he was at fault and apologise. He has far more class than those who try to exonerate him from blame.

gizzy_red Posted on 28/02/2010 01:29
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

[:D] Any videos?

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 01:32
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Yeah I've got Debbie does Dallas on video.........but I don't see how that is relevant. [;)]

SirHumptyofDumpty Posted on 28/02/2010 02:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

lol. when was the last time you saw a pro bend his leg clean in half after getting his studs trapped in the ground. [:D]

The break is clearly due to Shawcross

Arcadia101 Posted on 28/02/2010 03:01
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

With regard to Shawcross, i think we all know he isnt "that type of player" he was 1 second late putting a strong challenge in on a weaker player who's standing foot was in the turf. You can cleary see that Shawcross is upset at the outcome of the tackle.

Buddy Posted on 28/02/2010 08:48
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I didn't think it was a red card and I think Arsene Wenger needs charging with something to shut him up.

There was some hack on the radio this morning claiming that referees were encouraging English players to tackle violently because they don't book them for bad tackles. What Wenger needs to realise is a lot of people are not capable of holding their own opinions so just parrot whatever bullshyte he comes out with.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 08:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I'd be interested to read why you don't think it warranted a red card Buddy.

joseph99 Posted on 28/02/2010 08:55
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It was not a red card tackle but was a red card for the consequences. He was arguably over zealous but if that rule is applied we'd be lucky to finish any game with a sensible number of players.

Buddy Posted on 28/02/2010 09:03
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Because a red card is for serious foul play or violent conduct. We can rule out violent conduct immediately because it's specifically defined as conduct not involved in challenging for the ball.

Serious foul play is the offence in question and it's a matter of opinion. The law is as follows:

"A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play.

A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play."

If you knew nothing about football and read that you would be in no doubt that Shawcross' challenge constituted serious foul play, but what you also have to do is read it (especially the bit about "endangering safety") with any number of completely fair challenges in mind and see if they fit the definition.

My opinion is that you can't punish offences by their result. Shawcross was guilty of a late challenge, mainly because Ramsey was too quick for him, which if Ramsey's leg had stayed in one piece would have been dealt with by a yellow card.

It's not one of those where you would say the ref was completely wrong and should be dropped from the list, just my opinion that it wasn't really "excessive force or brutality".

rick4974 Posted on 28/02/2010 09:11
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I've watched it over and over on motd lastnight and again now and still can't see how it's shawcross fault.

The motd still frame shows shawcross left foot coming in from the front of ramseys right leg, and it shows ramseys right let fully bent out over. So there is no doubt Ramsey had already broke his leg prior to impact.

It's not a bad challenge and we've all seen a lot worse.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 09:12
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Fair enough. I agree that the result doesn't determine the punishment but, for me, there was excessive force and brutality involved in the tackle.

As you say, very subjective.

joseph99 Posted on 28/02/2010 09:19
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

But he was given it for the consequence

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 09:26
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I disagree.

Hercules Posted on 28/02/2010 09:39
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

It's threads like these that highlight who has played the game and who hasn't. There is no way Shawcross meant to hurt him and his tackle was done in the safest way possibly. Ramsey was simply too quick and Shawcross was trying to play a ball that wasn't there.

Shawcross was devestated because he thought he had broken Ramsey's leg. Keverson's picture clearly shows that he broke it himself but there was contact between Rmasey and Shawcross afterwards. Shawcross looks down and see's Ramsey's leg flopping about and automatically assumes it was the contact that caused it. That's why he was balling his eyes out.

As for the 'when was the last time that a player's leg broke on it's own' comment....Djibril Cisse against Blackburn 4 or 5 years ago. Henrick Larsson prior to that.

Those of you using the motd still as your main source of info should consider how blurry it is. It's been produced by freezing a moving shot. Keverson's still is a photo. No blurs. With the speed of the incident the blurs on the motd still make it look like its breaks on contact. But Kevrson's picture is taken fractions of a second before and shows it was already broken.

It's impossible for Shawcross to make contact with Ramsey's leg forcefully enough to break his leg and then bounce back 6 inches, all in the time it takes for Ramsey's leg to shift 3 inches.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 28/02/2010 09:46
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

"excessive force and brutality"

No chance. A two footed lunge over the top of the ball is excessive, not a genuine attempt to get the ball like Shawcross did.

It certainly looked as though Ramseys leg was planted on a 45deg angle when Shawcross caught him. Very, very unfortunate but certainly not intentional by Shawcross.

These things happen in football, always will sadly. Hope Ramsay makes a full recovery and there is'nt a Wenger led media witch hunt after Shawcross a-la Taylor.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 28/02/2010 09:46
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I don't think anyone can seriously argue he deliberately set out to cause such a serious injury, but it was a robust challenge and sometimes these types of injury happen as a result.

But I agree with Adi and I think a red card was probably the right decision by the referee.

joseph99 Posted on 28/02/2010 09:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Ballacks was far worse. Only a yellow.

Ridgewell - shocking (nothing)

Ramsay's ankle was angled (as if he was about to turn over on his ankle) at the moment of impact. Had it not been angled at this time it would not have been broken. The ref saw the dangling ankle and issued a red card. Which, under the circumstances, was a sensible thing to do.


Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 09:50
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

What an extremely arrogant post Hercules. I've played the game at a reasonable level thank you. Just because people disagree with you doesn't give you the right to claim that they can't have played the game. Utter drivel.

As for the photo I think I've already pointed out how unreliable that photo is. It's generally been accepted that it was his contact that caused the injury. However, the point is that the injury sustained is irrelevant to the question of whether it was a red card. So is intent.

I thought it was a bad tackle and deserved a red card.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 28/02/2010 10:05
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

The red card arguement is totally open to interpretation.

The refs will get some right and some wrong, that won't change. I personally thought it was a booking, 50/50 with Ramseys leg being planted at the wrong angle fractionally after knicking the ball away and prior to Shawcross making contact.

I've been in the unfortunate position of breaking someones leg completely by accident, no malice or intent intended - and its fking horrible. The reaction of Shawcross, to me, certainly pointed to the fact that he did'nt mean it and it was a slight mis-timed genuine attempt to get the ball.

Anyhow, hope its a clean break for Ramsey and he makes a full and quick recovery.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 10:07
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Absolutely heaton. I don't believe for one minute that he meant it. I just thought it was a dangerous and reckless tackle.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 28/02/2010 10:22
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Having sky+ it and watched it over and over I can say it was a very unfortunate incident. No studs were showing by Shawcross which fo me means he isn't setting out to 'do' Ramsey. The angle of Ramseys ankle may have made the injury worse. Looks like it could even have snapped before Shawcross makes contact. I've seen it happen on a Sunday morning and wouldn't rule it out.

Arsenals conduct should be called to account, very unproffessional to start calling fellow pros. Arsenal don't have a great disciplinary record.

The tackle was a yellow card offence in a game where the player who nicks the ball doesn't end up with a broken leg. The wobbly leg has made the challenge seem worse than it actually was and the leg has influenced the ref.


Hercules Posted on 28/02/2010 10:24
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Call me arrogant if you want. I have the right to assume those who think that was a bad tackle haven't played the game. I'm only judging the situation based on the information I'm provided with. If you have played the game, I guess I'm wrong but 9/10 who think that was a bad tackle will be used to friendly 5-a-side weeknight games with work mates.

Where have you pointed out how unreliable the photo is? I can't see anything to contradict it.

However, the point is that the injury sustained is irrelevant to the question of whether it was a red card. So is intent.

I'm not sure I understand this point. I agree that the outcome of the tackle is irrlevant when deciding if it was a red card. However I think intent is a primary concern in deciding on whether a red card is deserved as the intent often dictates the technique of the tackle.

It's generally been accepted that it was his contact that caused the injury.

Generally accepted by who? Shawcross? As I've already said he assumed it was his contact that caused the injury. The picture clearly shows it wasn't.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 10:33
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

So Hercules, you think that Pulis is wrong?

There is a witch hunt against his player and apparently there is a photo that proves that Shawcross is innocent. But Pulis still accepts that his player was guilty of an awful tackle that snapped Ramsey's leg. Seems a bit strange that he isn't using this irrefutable proof to clear his player's name.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 10:36
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Yes, it's arrogant Hercules and you continue in the same way. The picture doesn't prove anything at all.

Buddy Posted on 28/02/2010 11:17
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

If anyone wants an example of how misleading still photos can be, have a look at the black player at the back of the photo - is it Faye? - and compare it with his position on the freeze frame on the telly.

If you's just seen the photo you'd say he was about four yards away.

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 11:29
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I still can't believe that some who watched motd still believe his leg was broke before impact. The pic in this thread is clearly after contact, watch the replay and then look at the picture. Just look where Shawcross is in the pic he has already made contact and is to the side of him, plus the ball is further on from when he made contact. Its not really hard to see its after once youve seen a replay.

WillMunny Posted on 28/02/2010 11:54
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

spot on gurthy

Manfriday Posted on 28/02/2010 11:56
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

for people who believe you need contact to break a leg


Link: wobbly leg

gurthy Posted on 28/02/2010 11:57
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

We're not saying you need contact to break a leg. We're saying Shawcross made contact and broke Ramseys leg.

Hercules Posted on 28/02/2010 13:40
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Pulis' spoke directly after the match when everybody (including me) thought that he broke had broken his leg. You can't really blame him for thinking Shawcross broke his leg when Shawcross made contact thousands of a second after the break occurred.

Adi, you can keep on saying I'm arrogant but it won't strengthen your argument. Cries of arrogance coming from you are quite ironic anyway.

gurthy, it is impossible for Shawcross to kick Ramsey with enough force to break his leg and then retract his leg back the way it came (towards the lens) without Ramsey's body shape or position changing at all.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/02/2010 13:45
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

I'm not trying to strengthen my argument. It's my view on a very, very subjective matter.

To retaliate by implying that I'm arrogant is probably about the best you can do.

All I'm saying is that trying to argue that people who disagree with your interpretation can't have played the game is the very definition of arrogance. I'm surprised you can't see that.

boro_exile Posted on 28/02/2010 13:51
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

Pulis' comments were obviously before he (and we) had had the opportunity to see video and still photo evidence so how that can be used as supportive of one particular side of the debate is short-sighted as best. i stand by my assessment way up there somewhere ^^^ having had the benefit of slo mo replays, etc.

Antan Posted on 28/02/2010 14:53
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWf9FG6wIW8&feature=related

Worst ive ever seen! No-one near him at all!

Holgate_Hero_Day Posted on 28/02/2010 15:11
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

"The look of shock on the other players faces showed how bad the injury was. "

really cos i thought it was the pictures of his foot dangling off the end of his leg that showed how bad it was you dimwit [:o)]

Hercules Posted on 28/02/2010 18:38
Fouul on Aaron Ramsey - horrible

To retaliate by implying that I'm arrogant is probably about the best you can do.

I'm not trying to retaliate. If you think my comment was arrogant I don't care. You come across as arrogant quiet a lot - just an observation.

All I'm saying is that trying to argue that people who disagree with your interpretation can't have played the game is the very definition of arrogance. I'm surprised you can't see that.

I can see why it appears arrogant but an issue like this is one which shows the difference between people who have played football properly and those who haven't. You must be an exception amongst those who have.