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Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:39
People Criticising Strachan...

Are complete idiots, trolls or people with agendas.

The club has been on a downward spiral since reaching the UEFA cup final, we have stripped off our best assets (Schwarzer, Boateng, Cattermole, Viduka, Yakubu, etc.) and replaced them with rank bad signings (Alves, Mido, Emnes, Digard, Dong Gook Lee, etc.) and have plummeted from a top half Premiership team to a mid table Championship team.

All of this was done under Southgate as we decided to stupidly try and create a team full of Teesside born players, limiting our catchment area from the entire world to one region of the UK. We also decided to cut the age of our squad, limiting our team from players from the ages of 25 up to late 30's. So this 'strategy' has crippled the club and brought it to its knees.

The last bit of class we had in Tuncay and Huth was sold off and we are left with a feeble mid table team with absolutely no boll_ocks and very little ability. We lost 5-0 at home to our promotion contenders and although our away form was good Southgate correctly paid with his job albeit several years too late.

Strachan has taken over this stinking mess and probably underestimated the dearth of ability, strength and passion in the team. Without any chance of signing players he has haed to wade through treacle, taking the criticism that a bunch of underperforming cretins has brought his way. Only an absolute tool can't see what has become of us and that it will take more than 10 games to turn this shy_Te around and it will also take some very good wheeling and dealing.

Vosene Posted on 30/12/2009 11:40
People Criticising Strachan...

What watch have you got on?

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 11:41
People Criticising Strachan...

You mean like signing Marcus effing Bent again.Top drawer wheeling and dealing

Jimmythemoonlight Posted on 30/12/2009 11:41
People Criticising Strachan...

Agree 100% Lisbon.Some people posting on here just dont have a clue [|)]

Jimmythemoonlight Posted on 30/12/2009 11:42
People Criticising Strachan...

Right on cue one of the clueless idiots replies....[rle]

Evil Posted on 30/12/2009 11:43
People Criticising Strachan...

Yep 100% Lisbon.

But Marcus Bent can fck off.

BoroChilly Posted on 30/12/2009 11:43
People Criticising Strachan...

Well said Lisbon [^]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:43
People Criticising Strachan...

Bent is complete dog turd but it is a loan signing as we don't have one single striker and not a permenant signing thankfully.

Old_Gregg Posted on 30/12/2009 11:44
People Criticising Strachan...

Strachan is currently only doing one thing well, and that's making Southgate look like a competant manager (in this league)

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 11:46
People Criticising Strachan...

Why insult me.Do you watch our team play.We are performing worse now than before.I dont want Strachan to fail but I have seen not one thing in anything he has done in two months that gives me even a grain of confidence that he actually knows what he is doing.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:46
People Criticising Strachan...

Well he managed to drop Jones, Emnes and Yeates so that is a start. If it was up to Southgate we'd probably have Ben Hutchinson up front.

Bandy Posted on 30/12/2009 11:49
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm with Strachan all the way. I actually think he is cleverer than people think and once he is given opportunity to bring in players then we will see a radical transformation but sadly this season it will be too late. A good bet now would be to lay money on us being a Premier league club in 2011. he is playing a blinder with the press at the moment and keeping them guessing as much as us but he is doing ot for a reason. he knows that 60-70 percent of the team arent upto it and will reveal that in january hopefully when he fux half of them off

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 11:50
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon as usual for those on the forum who disagree, we are all wrong you are all right.

Because we think Strachan is the wrong man doesn't make us wrong, it means we have an opinion on a matter. At the moment, those against him have all the ammunition they need to show his failings, what dothe pro strachan lobby have except that its someone elses fault.

QPR 1 Boro 5, turning point, lol panto season Oh No It Isn't, it was a fluke result which could have happened under any manager.

Boro 3, Scunthorpe 0, great display turning point, No, it was a result against the worst away team in league WITH 10 men.

Strachan showed his style at Barnsley and was slated by the majority, including those who support him, yet you all still have blind faith in his ability.

Take a objective rounded look at it before saying we are all idiots, retards etc....You may be proved right long term, but, IMHO, I very much doubt it, and for me FACTS are more appealing than FAITH.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:51
People Criticising Strachan...

Blind faith in his ability?? He has had 10 games and not been able to sign one player, I despair sometimes.[rle]

Evil Posted on 30/12/2009 11:51
People Criticising Strachan...

Was the 5-0 away to West Brom a fluke? Nope.

What about not beating anyone in the top half.

Nope.

What about getting relegated? Nope.

rackhead Posted on 30/12/2009 11:52
People Criticising Strachan...

weres the money coming from for new signings.
surely if he had any he wouldnt have come back in for bent unless the thick jock rates him

skiprat Posted on 30/12/2009 11:54
People Criticising Strachan...

I agree with everything you've said Lisbon but he cannot be totally absolved of blame.

He's made Southgate's team (which was a very bad one), much worse.

I can't say that I've seen a single difference in the way we're set up, the way we get through a game, nothing. Strachan has to show something, he's not going to get 18 players in the next 5 weeks so he has to start to do something, anything with the players he does have.

As someone has suggested above, at the moment he's making Southgate look like a competent manager in this league.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:56
People Criticising Strachan...

Skiprat, I think Strachan underestimated the job here but believe that he will get it right given the funds and a little bit of time. Something that we appear a bit short of at the moment. I think he has tried to look at most of his players ina match situation to try and see who has got it and who hasn't which has also meant odd decisions and some not so good results.

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 11:57
People Criticising Strachan...

He has signed, Kitson (Lazy), Bent (Useless) and Osbourne (Jury out), so to say he hasn't signed anyone is absurd.

Your arguments that he had to find someone, when there was no one available held some truth, but to make matters worse he is now trying to re-sign Bent.

Does that not show he got Bent in, not to do the job for a few weeks because no one else was available, but because he actually thinks he is talented.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 11:59
People Criticising Strachan...

They were lon signings to fill gaps that were there and the fact we had no strikers and needed some sharpish. Who would you have signed on loan in 2 weeks, Christiano Ronaldo?

We have one available striker and he is 16, if he was trying to sign Bent permenantly then I would be dismayed but he isn't.

halifaxp Posted on 30/12/2009 12:04
People Criticising Strachan...

"Alves, Mido, Emnes, Digard, Dong Gook Lee, etc.) ... done under Southgate as we decided to stupidly try and create a team full of Teesside born players, limiting our catchment area from the entire world to one region of the UK..."

Alves from Normanby, Mido from Haverton Hill, Emnes from Redcar, Digard from South Bank, Dong Gook Lee from Eston? Try to keep it consistent, Lisbon!

Bandy Posted on 30/12/2009 12:07
People Criticising Strachan...

when a manager makes a loan signing he does bear in mind that he doesnt really want him as a permanaent signing. There is a difference. It's a stop gap. A bit like a courtesy car. You think, oh, this is nice, but I dont want to keep it because deep down it's a heap of XXXXXXe

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:09
People Criticising Strachan...

Halifax, Southgate and Gibson wanted the core of the team from the North East, that was a fact that they rolled out time and again. Add to that the appaling signings and it was a recipe for disaster.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:14
People Criticising Strachan...

Spot on Bandy, we have no strikers so to protect the young lads stick someone in there to take the knocks. We all know Bent will never score a goal but at least he can try and knock people about until we can actually sign an actual forward in the transfer window.

boksic Posted on 30/12/2009 12:16
People Criticising Strachan...

By now you should all be aware of my view on managers but for those who have not been watching the issue is this - how many points teams accrue over the course of a season can be predicted with about 92% accuracy by comparing wage spending of each team relative to each other, if you then bear in mind issues such as injuries, bad refereeing or just bad luck, in that context the role of the manager is overstated. Managers only have slight and indirect effects on team performance. Also the idea that there are "good" managers who get "more" from the same or similar resources is demonstrably not the case.

I also keep pointing out that the elephant in the room on the regression over the last 2 years is reduction in wage spending at MFC.

HOWEVER parking those thoughts for a moment, the argument on here pre the sacking of Gareth Southgate was that another manager would be able to get "more" from the same resources as Gareth Southgate was a "bad" manager.

Purely based on that argument Gordon Strachan has NOT been able to get "more" out of the same resources over the course of the games he has been in charge so that argument has been lost.

If it them turns into a different argument - Strachan should be given time and money to build "his team" - the problem is you are no longer comparing like with like and we will of course never know how the season would have ended IF Gareth Southgate had been given increased resources either last summer or in the coming January transfer window.

borolad259 Posted on 30/12/2009 12:17
People Criticising Strachan...

Just a point of order Lisbon:
"If it was up to Southgate we'd probably have Ben Hutchinson up front."

My mind may be playing tricks with me, but didn't Southgate offload Hutchinson to...er...let me think now, Strachan?

Bandy Posted on 30/12/2009 12:18
People Criticising Strachan...

Boksic, your theory is being proved right time n time again. I am with you all the way and actually thought about it on the train out of barnsley

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:23
People Criticising Strachan...

Some very good points Boksic. Narrow minded people trying to compare Southgates Championship tender with Strachans yet there are many key factors why this is a load of shy_te. I will name but a few:

We played different teams under both managers
The games were played at different Venues
We have had different players available under both managers
Different referees for these matches
Different weather conditions for these matches
Different amounts of money available to both managers

Positives from the Strachan tenure for me:
Strachan has tried most players to assess them
Strachan dropped Jones cos he was crap
He dropped Yeates and Emnes cos they were ineffective
He tried to play 2 strikers, albeit unsuccessfully due to resources available
He got rid of St Ledger cos he couldn't play with Wheater
He reinstated Pogatetz to centre back

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:26
People Criticising Strachan...

Borolad259, not sure on that one, you may be correct but he didn't play a single game for Celtic I remember and was in our first team at the time. A good point though.

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/12/2009 12:28
People Criticising Strachan...

Boksic surely I could prove that money has little to do with how well a team performs but in reality it is the amount of players a team has who have previously played for top European teams. I'm sure the accuracy would be quite high?

onion_budgie Posted on 30/12/2009 12:30
People Criticising Strachan...

The fact that Strachan has been dealt a tough hand and has got some things right defensively doesn't explain his approach to getting back into the game on Monday.


Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:30
People Criticising Strachan...

Not sure what you mean by that budgie?

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 12:31
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm not comparing the 2 like for like, that uisn't possible, but in reply to the valid points you make.

Tinkering with a side at top of table to assess players is not a method majority of managers would take.

Jones decision was taken from him, IMO, by fans, he couldn't let the lad take much more.

Yeates was dropped after a blinder of a game at QPR, what happened to he was assessing players, if that was the case, he would have een that Yeates deserved to start against Blackpool

I agree with the 2 strikers point.

He said himself, he tried to keep St Ledger

He played Poggy at left back, it was only through necessity he returned to centre back.

onion_budgie Posted on 30/12/2009 12:34
People Criticising Strachan...

Well did you think a single substitution to bring on a 16 year old virgin striker against an uncomprising team was really going to make any difference?


Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:37
People Criticising Strachan...

I think some of the tinkeringg was brought upon him by injuries but he hasn't ruled any players out with the exception it seems, of Joe Bennet for some reason. Now he has seen Brad Jones is crap he has dropped him. The same with Yeates being completely ineffective. I was at that QPR game and Yeates didn't have a blinder, he had 2 good shots and worked hard. Other than that I don't remember him having a 'blinder'.

Ok, let's look at it another way, how many of the current players are capable of making this team into a promotion team. What would be your first 11?

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 30/12/2009 12:38
People Criticising Strachan...

It's every fans right to have a pop at wgs. If things don't improve after Jan then he will deserve the pelters.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 12:42
People Criticising Strachan...

onionbudgie, I hoped it would but as I had never seen the young lad I had no idea. I was happier with that than sticking on Emnes and Yeates who have proved time and again that they are both crap and wouldn't have made a jot of difference. That young lad almost snatched a last minute equaliser from Johnsons cross but it wasn't to be.

boksic Posted on 30/12/2009 12:45
People Criticising Strachan...

There is around a 92% correlation between how much a team spends on players wages relative to the rest of the team in the division and the number of points they accrue over the course of a season. The research on this is now well documneted, see the Warwick University stuff and the sections in the book "Why England Lose".

It is the only statistic that has any sort of correlation to measuring/predicting success or performance (e.g. spending on transfer fees predicts or correlates noting) so I am not sure what point you are tryin to make about "the amount of players a team has who have previously played for top European teams" - what do you mean and how woudl you quantify it?

If you are saying that top teams have "top players" then I agree, but that is beacuse the top teams pay the highest wages so be careful not to confuse cause with effect.

mikehunt Posted on 30/12/2009 12:50
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon and Bandy dead right for me.

Gibson let Southgate/forced Southgate to make a series of blunders over transfers.

Southgate was a net spender up to relegation. He just p1ssed it away on utter rubbish. Be honest, apart from Huth and Young, who did Southgate buy well ?
Don't say O'Neill either who still doesn't stand out in this sorry league.

Strachan may not work out, but he has to be given the chance to create his own team, with his own players and that can't start until Jan. Loan players are just desperate acts when you are in the sh1t.
Judge Strachan next September when it will most certainly be his team.
I hope he turns it around. He will deserve a knighthood if he does.

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/12/2009 13:08
People Criticising Strachan...

"If you are saying that top teams have "top players" then I agree, but that is beacuse the top teams pay the highest wages so be careful not to confuse cause with effect."

My stat would be complete falacy but could certainly back up my claim to an extent. What you have said there about players is correct but time and time again your don't conceive that top teams have top managers as well!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 13:10
People Criticising Strachan...

It's a chicken and egg situation.

onion_budgie Posted on 30/12/2009 13:22
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon

Yeates is experienced at this level and would've had an impact. He did ok against Blackpool and was a contender for mom at QPR yet has dropped down the pecking order. This, and the fact that he wasn't brought on at Barnsley is surprising, but i guess we'll never know why as Strapon doesn't tend to answer questions.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 13:24
People Criticising Strachan...

Yeates has been a disappointment since he came. With the exception of QPR he has proved to be a poor signing so I am unsure as to why you think he would have had a massive impact in this game. It was clear we had nothing up front and the addition of Yeates on the wing wasn't going to change that anyway.

onion_budgie Posted on 30/12/2009 13:30
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm not suggesting he would have changed the game - but his energy and drive would've helped us force the issue more.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 13:32
People Criticising Strachan...

What energy and drive? With the exception of the QPR game I can hardly remember him having any impact on a game all season. I suppose that is why he came so cheap in the first place and why Colchester went down.

Bandy Posted on 30/12/2009 13:32
People Criticising Strachan...

as for the st lege situation I've heard he was a little bit too mouthy in the dressing room and certain players already at the club blanked him and spat their dummies in a "who is this cheeky bas tard telling us where we are going wrong" kind of way. In other words, they refused to accept him eventho the gaffer wanted him

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 13:37
People Criticising Strachan...

Don't get me wrong, I also think Yeates is average, my point being that he had a very good game, which most people agree, at QPR, yet was removed from the team straight away.
As it was, it was THE worst performance I have seen in many years, making his decision to drop Yeates look churlish.

Surely he had to be given the chance to build on that against Blackpool from the start, when it was apparent that AJ had, I believe, some serious family health problems, which must have weighed heavily on such a young lad.

What sort of motivational management is that ?

A Winning team changed after biggest win of the season ?

Players will feel aggrieved if they perceive their best game was ignored for favouritism, which Strachan is continually accused of.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 13:42
People Criticising Strachan...

He as replaced by johnson who had consistently been or best player and top goalscorer. It was a tough decision but one the manager is paid too make. Johnson is better than Yeates so deserved his place for me.

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 13:49
People Criticising Strachan...

Can I ask then, come the end of the season, where do you think the team will end up in the league ?

This league is pure shyte and given the fact we have been terrible so far, we are still in top half and thereabouts for play offs.

So surely you should expect Strachan, with the transfer window approaching to bring in players and improve results before the end of the month, putting us back into the promotion chase ?

If he does, I'll happily eat humble pie and back him to the hilt, but I just can't see it happening.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 13:57
People Criticising Strachan...

I hope my feeling about Strachan is correct and we get players in who will improve us in January. We need at least 3 players plus Digard, Pogi, Aliadiere back from injury and we will have a good chance of reaching the play offs. So at present, I hope we will reach the play offs but January is crucial in securing better players, offloading Southgates crap and getting injured players back. There's too many variables to predict where we will finish at this stage but end of January things should be clearer.

Bandy Posted on 30/12/2009 14:04
People Criticising Strachan...

agree with Lisbon. The key ingredient for me tho is bying players who can score goals and do not shirk responsibility. They dont even have to be great. They also need to play on average 80 percent of the games

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 14:10
People Criticising Strachan...

"The club has been on a downward spiral since reaching the UEFA cup final . . "

Stopped reading there . . but from the title I presume you agree he deserves criticism after Monday

boksic Posted on 30/12/2009 14:17
People Criticising Strachan...

Chester - not really sure what you are saying, are you saying you have a stat that you think works or one that appears to work but is in fact a complete fallacy?

The idea of top managers can be disproved. Mourinho was sacked by Chelsea close to the start of the seaseon. No one thinks Avram Grant is a "great" manager but his win percentage over nearly a full season is actually .1% better than Mourinho and he was a hard fought draw and a penalty shoot out away from winning the premier league and champions league double. The constant was the players (and the wage spending).

changingman Posted on 30/12/2009 14:29
People Criticising Strachan...

Agree with the jist of what is being said. The overwhelming hatred of the man by celtic supporters does seem worrying as many have picked up on his poor signings but in that respect I will not pass judgement until i see some.

I still have however, and have done for a few weeks, a feeling that if things can continue and WGS does not get the results he may simply walk away.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 15:19
People Criticising Strachan...

bear66, no idea what you are talking about.

Why are you bothered what the Celtic fans think? You could say the same about us and McClaren but would you have him back? He won them 3 league titles, I would settle for promotion. By contrast the Southampton and Coventry fans love him.

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 15:23
People Criticising Strachan...

Personally I believe that if he carries on accumulating points in the next 10 games at the same rate that he is currently doing he will be gone one way or another.

onthemap Posted on 30/12/2009 15:32
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon spot on, 100% correct.

Boksic the theory is well documented and stands up however what it doesn't account for is what an incompetent manager does with the same income and wage bill compared to a capable one.
There's certainly more than an 8% deviation.

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/12/2009 15:36
People Criticising Strachan...

Boksic is it not possible to say that Mouriniho and Grant are both good managers then?

The point I was trying to make is that I could come up with numerous stats to prove that money doesn't equal success. It obviously does though, but I don't see why from these stas you keep putting up on a weekly basis that the conclusion is that the managers role is overstated. Could it not be that the biggest spending clubs have the better managers?

Obviously at the top end of the table the difference between success and failure is a very fine line so this is where the better managers make the difference. Look at Robson in the league cup final against Leicester, if he hadn't been so naive and made a substitution to eat up time at the end we'd have won the game, then look at both games with the job Martin O Neil got his players to do on Juninho.

boksic Posted on 30/12/2009 15:37
People Criticising Strachan...

"what it doesn't account for is what an incompetent manager does with the same income and wage bill compared to a capable one"

mappy - at the risk of sounding like panto season - oh yes it does.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 15:38
People Criticising Strachan...

Joe, what a completely pointless post.

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 15:43
People Criticising Strachan...

Ll - I presume you didn't you go on Monday? Otherwise my comments would make sense.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 15:45
People Criticising Strachan...

Yes, I was at the game on Monday and I don't particular think Strachan did anything wrong at all. Also if you can't be arsed to read the post, why comment on it?

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 15:47
People Criticising Strachan...

I commented on the title. So what did Strachan do right on Monday then?

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 15:51
People Criticising Strachan...

Bear what Strachan did or did not do on Monday was criminally stupid.He's a f'ing eejit made even worse by his smug arrogance and indifference.Southgate wasnt very good but at least he did give a schit.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 15:52
People Criticising Strachan...

We only had 1 fit striker so we decided to go with a 4-5-1 and I thought the team he picked was about the best we had available. We took the lead and had a decent first half. Second half they changed the formation and the players failed to cope, giveing away 2 sloppy goals and confidence ebbed away. I looked at our bench and thought there was noone on there who could make an impact, possibly with the exception of Luke Williams who I knew nothing about. We had already gone 4-4-2 with Franks to try and put pressure on them but with the squad available we were XXXXXXed once McMahon and Arca made mistakes.

So what did he do wrong?

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 15:56
People Criticising Strachan...

So players who were part of away wins at Swansea, Scunthorpe, Reading, Sheff Wed and QPR were worse than this player who you knew nothing about?

br14 Posted on 30/12/2009 15:58
People Criticising Strachan...

All this positioning for and against is ridiculous.

Strachan hasn't been able to get as much out of the current squad as Southgate. That's just plain obvious. Doesn't make Strachan a bad manager, just not a great manager.

With the right squad Strachan will no doubt be able to get promotion. But then so could the rest of us with unlimited funds.

That doesn't make our current squad crap - as our league position pre-Strachan shows - but it certainly wasn't great either. Playoffs at best.

What we needed was an intelligent manager capable of making a few tweaks until January to keep us in the hunt, and then strengthening what he had.

What we got was a manager that appears to think the answer is "real men" who are married. I reckon thats just a cop out because he can't manage what he's got.

But since we can't change history, we'd better hope Strachan can do some rebuilding (which he does look capable of doing) and get something like the team he wants, without the outlay of too much cash or the complete demolition of the club.

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 15:59
People Criticising Strachan...

Playing a f'ing schit right back that cant kick a ball 3 yards with his left foot in front of THREE left back specialists for a start.
Failing to introduce Yeates when we were behind.He may not be a world beater but he has infectious enthusiasm and heart.
Failing to consider a dutch U-21 international who has pace that could torture two desperately slow centre halves.Giving the same player 45 minutes since he came here.
Totally shunning Joe bennett one of our brightest prospects since he came here.
That will do for starters.

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 16:00
People Criticising Strachan...

Right on all counts

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 16:00
People Criticising Strachan...

Yes, exactly.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 16:06
People Criticising Strachan...

You mean those game were we had a German in ternational Defender and a Turkish International captain and when we had several fit strikers to choose form. Your argument is terrible, just seems like you are in the anti Strachan Brigade for the sake of it, another typical moaning Boro supporter that struggles to see what is in front of him and would rather whine.

flickster Posted on 30/12/2009 16:19
People Criticising Strachan...

You will never please all of the people all of the times, but this post has brought into account statistics.

Well here are the statistics on Strachans career:

English Football (Excluding Boro) 5/11/96-13/2/04
Played 325. Won 109. Win % 33.53

Scottish Football
1/6/05-25/5/09
Played 182 Won 122 Win % 67.03

Middlesbrough
31/10/09-Present
Played 10 Won 2 Win % 20.00

This is not a representative sample, this is his entire management career over 14 years.

I mentioned in an earlier post when I joined the forum, that there were only 3 managers in Premiership and 3 in Championship with similar figures.

Two of them lost their jobs in the last 2 weeks, Brendan Rodgers and Gary Megson. The others are Phil Brown, Gianfranco Zola, Chris Coleman and Roy Keane.

I can forgive Rodgers and Zola they are in their first season as managers and have a lot to learn, but if you were offered any of the others what would you have said.

br14 Posted on 30/12/2009 16:22
People Criticising Strachan...

We only had Huth and Tuncay for four games. Southgate managed for 13 before Strachan arrived.

In those 13 games we amassed 23 points. Strachans managed another 9 points in 11 games.

There really is no argument. Strachan is simply not the manager we needed. It's so obvious now I'm surprised anyone thinks otherwise.

In the long run he may turn out ok. We're only 5 points of a playoff place after all.

But we should now be fighting for automatic promotion and that now looks almost impossible. It was within grasp under Southgate.

mikehunt Posted on 30/12/2009 16:29
People Criticising Strachan...

Note your comment above lisbon re Bent and a permanent signing.
Gazette (yes I know) have him down as in talks.
Not sure I could see the logic in that however desperate we are.
Not only has he scored no goals, but the @rse has had no attempts on goal has he ?

If Gordon does sign Bent permanently, I might just sit in the dark for a long time and rock gently, shaking my head, reminiscing about Mark Viduka, Fabrizio Ravanelli, Alen Boksic, Jimmy Floyd, christ even Billy Ashcroft !

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 16:39
People Criticising Strachan...

there seems to be a bit of a trend on here to try to use statistics to 'prove' a particular point of view.

Boksic - any academic research usually sets out to prove or disprove a hypothesis and always has a warning attached which sets out the limits and potential inaccuracies in the conclusions. It is not fair to pick out the elements of the research which suit your argument without mentioning the limits.

Hickster talks about managers and win percentages - this means nothing, because it depends upon state of club at point of take over, funds available, length of service, economic climate etc etc

Yeates - maybe he has shown a poor attitude behind the scenes, maybe his fitness is poor, remember that he lost his place fairly quickly under Southgate as well so that would suggest there must be some problem with him.

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 16:44
People Criticising Strachan...

Yeates was all over the place versus QPR . . even scoring a goal . . I don't think he's disciplined enough for Strachan. Same with Bennett and anyone else who 'has a go'

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 16:48
People Criticising Strachan...

he hasn't impressed me at all, he has no quality whatsoever

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 17:16
People Criticising Strachan...

br14, we should now b fighting for automatic promotion? Do you think we have a squad as good as Newcastle, West Brom and Forest?

Bear66, I was at the QPR game and it was Yeates best game but every other game he has been crap and we are now half way through the season. How many chances do you give someone before you realise they really aren't very good.

br14 Posted on 30/12/2009 17:35
People Criticising Strachan...

Fully fit, we're not far off. And I did say fighting. We need to strengthen.

But the truth is with the full squad fit, we'd really only need a big striker and maybe some backup in central midfield. I still think Digard good do a job.

The rest aren't great but they're as good as most in this division.

We weren't embarassed by Newcastle who benefit from homer refs, but still only managed to scrape a draw with Derby.

The rest in this division aren't that good.

I'm not saying they're good enough for the Premier League. But they should be good enough for the Championship.

SidSnot Posted on 30/12/2009 17:36
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm a softer version of BR14, but I do think you're giving Strachan too easy a ride.

I'm happy to accept Southgate deserved to lose his job. The 5-0 home defeat to West Brom probably sealed that. However, there was nothing to suggest when he got the sack that we would only win 2 out of the next 11. As BR14 has already stated the Tuncay and Huth story doesn't hold up. Tuncay actually hardly started a game and we won 4 in 9 without Huth.

So all I'm saying is that I'm really disappointed with the start Strachan has made. Doesn't mean I want him sacked or that I don't believe he'll succeed, it's too early for that.

For whatever reason he can't seem to get anything out of this group of players who have just continued to go backwards. That's a huge disappointment.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 17:46
People Criticising Strachan...

br14, I seriously think you are kidding yourself, whimpering home defeats agains Leicester and West Brom plus defeats at Forest and Bristol City says everything about the quality of the side prior to Strachan arriving. That 5-0 home defeat by West Brom was harrowing and reminiscent of the Cardiff City debacle in the FA cup a few a years back. We have a few decent players I believe in Wheater, Pogatetz, Riggott, O'Neill, Digard, Johnson and possibly ALiadiere but we've rarely had half of them on the pitch at any one time, let alone all of them.

Regards giving Strachan and easy ride, I don't think so, I think I appreciated how rubbish we were and how big a job he had which some people failed to recognise because fo our false league position. We hadn't managed to thrash anyone all season, although Swansea and Sheff Wed were good results. I looked at that game on Saturday and wondered what I would do to change the game that had slipped away and I thought 'very little', we simply don't have the players cos we have offlaoded them all.

br14 Posted on 30/12/2009 17:47
People Criticising Strachan...

"Doesn't mean I want him sacked or that I don't believe he'll succeed, it's too early for that."

I'm not saying Strachan should go. The club would probably fold if he did given the financial losses.

I do think Gibson/Lamb need to be real men and tell Strachan he has to stop talking shyte, and start getting results.

And if there is any whiff of favouritism or prejudice against players of any kind, they need to nip it in the bud.

Then they need to scrape together some money to buy two or three players.

I do not believe dismantling the current squad is the way to go. We don't have that luxury.

I'm anticipating a wholesale sell off of the younger players at the club and maybe even a dismantling of the academy. I'm not sure that is a good idea.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 17:52
People Criticising Strachan...

I don't think we need to completely dimantle the squad:

Coyne
Hoyte
Pogatetz
Riggott
Wheater
Johnson
Williams
Digard
O'Neill
Aliadiere
?

Would be a good enough team to beat anyone in this division with about 3 strong additions.

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 17:54
People Criticising Strachan...

I think you need to look at what Strachan is doing as the repair of a badly leaking roof.

under Southgate the roof was starting to leak and he went along trying to patch it up without really addressing the underlying reasons why it was leaking in the first place.Like any bad roof it had its periods when it would hold up ok but eventually it would go again, maybe even worse than before.

Strachan has come in and realised the roof is in worse condition than anybody realised or than Southagte was admitting or realised. He now has to go for the full job - roof off and put a new one on that works properly.

Like any rebuilding job, it will take a bit of time and the roof will let water in meantime but be worth it in the end.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 17:56
People Criticising Strachan...

Very good analogy HC.[^]

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 17:57
People Criticising Strachan...

You cannooottt bee seerrriiooouuusss!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 17:59
People Criticising Strachan...

Your arguments are compelling bear66.[^]

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 18:05
People Criticising Strachan...

OK, I've got this roof . . . and it's doing everything necessary to keep my house dry . . more than I could have expected . . . so I got in a new builder who questioned the need for tiles, removed them, stuffed some paper in instead and the roof leaks and it's all the fault of the previous builder

Any better?

samuel_lee Posted on 30/12/2009 18:11
People Criticising Strachan...

"How many chances do you give someone before you realise they really aren't very good"

Well I would give Strachan til the end of Jan..max


HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 18:12
People Criticising Strachan...

Bear 66 - I think you could make that argument if the roof hadn't been leaking under Southgate but it had been getting steadily worse since about this time last year.

It's a fallacy that all was right early in the season with Southgate, we were starting to have some very poor results.

Plus the builder Gibbo has brought in was experienced enough to build a good roof at Celtic.

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 18:22
People Criticising Strachan...

Last season has no relevance; if that was an issue Gibbo would have sacked Southgate in the summer. So, looking at this season, I can only go by what I've seen watching almost every game this season (not Bristol City or Reading); this squad and the previous manager was doing better than I expected. In 35 years I've not gone away from home in any season EXPECTING TO WIN every game. Changes were made in Strachan's first game and have continued through till Monday when an extraordinary set of decisions totally neutered what I (and opposing managers and opposing fans) believe to be one the top teams in the League - his additions have made us worse and his tactics are destroying any confidence we had at the start of the season. Newcastle and WBA have had worse runs than Southgate but, unfortunately, they stuck with their managers.

There are few teams in the whole of the football league that have a record as bad as ours has had in the last 10 games.

Why aren't we top like Celtic were if that is the measure we should be considering?

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/12/2009 18:24
People Criticising Strachan...

"I'm anticipating a wholesale sell off of the younger players at the club and maybe even a dismantling of the academy."

Why do you think that?!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 18:52
People Criticising Strachan...

Samuel, we all know you are Gareth Southgates love child![ref]

samuel_lee Posted on 30/12/2009 18:59
People Criticising Strachan...

Yup...but thankfully I didn't inherit his beak [^]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:02
People Criticising Strachan...

The end of January , you're a generous sort.[rle]

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 19:03
People Criticising Strachan...

i can't understand this post

it's lisbon legend trying schoolboy physcology on grown up boro fans trying to make excuses for strachan

he can't manage southgates players blah blah
he can't win until he brings in players on higher wages blah blah
he can't win cos he hasnt got any strikers waffle waffle

until strachan starts achieveing a similiar points haul per game as southgate, or for that matter starts geting remotely close to doing it, then he might get less criticism and more backing

hes brought 3 premiership wage bills on loan in and cant get anywhere near

excuse after excuse, he needs three years, he needs 400 billion etc, he was brought in to improve the promotion prospects on the current squad, not to fanny around for 3 years bringing his celtic mates in

samuel_lee Posted on 30/12/2009 19:07
People Criticising Strachan...

Let's see what he can bring in...and if he can get the team to show some organisation, guts and passion (and simple passing abilities would be a bonus) ...something which he has failed to do so far...so will give him 6 weeks...Feb 14...a Valentine smooch or a kick up his scottish jacksy

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:12
People Criticising Strachan...

Oh look, it's the Dude with is random outbursts.[^] 3 years, how much money? Are you sure?

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 19:15
People Criticising Strachan...

it may have been a typical Dude outburst /rant but his core message is right.Strachan to date has failed abysmally in every aspect of football management.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:16
People Criticising Strachan...

By winning 3 titles and qualifying to the latter stages of the Champions league? Abject failure indeed.[:D]

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 19:18
People Criticising Strachan...

[^]3 years

a transfer profit of 2 million

i take it maths , as well as football isn't your strong point lisbon

footbal at this level is about wages, not transfer fees


feel free to waffle on , strachan needs this, strachan needs that, strachan can't manage players southgate signed waffle waffle

joebonano Posted on 30/12/2009 19:19
People Criticising Strachan...

I dont frankly give a flying fcuk analysing what he did at Coventry Saints or Celtic.It doesnt do us any good

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:19
People Criticising Strachan...

Are you still talking about Gareth Southgate, our ex manager who was sacked for being innept a few games ago?

bear66 Posted on 30/12/2009 19:23
People Criticising Strachan...

Wasn't Souness the star Scottish manager who then came to England?

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 19:24
People Criticising Strachan...

[^]no, cos if he was inept, there wouldnt be a word in the dictionary for strachans first 10 games

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:32
People Criticising Strachan...

You mean the first 10 games with Southgates team? The same team that were beaten 5-0 at home a few weeks previously.

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 19:38
People Criticising Strachan...

bear 66 - I didn't go to Barnsley so I can't comment, what do you reckon he did wrong?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 19:39
People Criticising Strachan...

Southgate, despite exceeding anything Strachan has managed to produce since taking over, still needed to go when he did; the 0-5 reverse against WBA was the final straw it seems.

Strachan may well get it right eventually - I for one thinks (and hopes) he will.

But what he has given us so far in terms of both performances and results is woefully short of what it should be and blaming Southgate for that is an easy get out and simply untrue.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:42
People Criticising Strachan...

Why is it simply untrue?

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 30/12/2009 19:50
People Criticising Strachan...

We should have appointed Mark Robbins instead.

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 19:55
People Criticising Strachan...

the blackpool home defeat was even more galling than the west brom one, as blackpool are a pub side that came here and should have won 10-0, at least west brom are a decent team

the blackpool first half is the worst 45 ive seen in watching boro for 20 years

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 19:55
People Criticising Strachan...

Because our early season return of points shows that Strachan is hugely underperforming, assuming that the fact our squad is far better than our results over the last 12 games isn't obvious enough.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 30/12/2009 19:57
People Criticising Strachan...

Or the squad wanted to play for Southgate but don't like this guy ??

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 19:58
People Criticising Strachan...

But our early season form included players that have since left and was also against different teams. They wre Southgates players so were more likely to perform for him than for Strachan.

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 19:59
People Criticising Strachan...

if southgate has been appointed at the start of the season and won 2 in 11 he would have been sacked, he got sacked for far, far better, irrelgardless of his poor 'last year' in the prem, i say last because his first 2 years were exactly the same as magnificent schteeve best manager in the world mclaren

the only reason strachan hasnt is because of the utter embarrasment it would cause for gibbo

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 20:00
People Criticising Strachan...

The bottom line is that Strachan clearly should have delivered a much better return of points since taking over.

I dont see how anyone can raise credible arguement otherwise.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 30/12/2009 20:03
People Criticising Strachan...

LisbonL ... realistically only one player (Huth). Important but not the whole reason. Not sure if Tuncay played a full 90 minutes.

J.I. absolutely spot on

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 20:03
People Criticising Strachan...

thats the point ive been trying to make for weeks, but it just turns into a 'i must love southgate' farce because i always post comparisons between the 2 and southgate wins easily

even southgate won more in his first 11 games of his tenure in his first season managing boro

Space_Face Posted on 30/12/2009 20:11
People Criticising Strachan...

Sacking Southgate when we did was an awful decision.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 30/12/2009 20:22
People Criticising Strachan...

As was not sacking him in May

When Gibbo sacked Southgate it must have been because he thought Strachan would get more out of the existing squad. He has been proven wrong.
Strachan must now assemble a set of players in a 4 week time-frame capable of getting into the play-offs otherwise his whole appointment is unjustified. Southgate should have been given until Jan 1 and if not in a play-off place sacked.

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 20:26
People Criticising Strachan...

judging strachans first ten games, we can only look back and thank gibbo for employing southgate for long enough to win us a few games and sacking him when he did

id hate to see where we would be now if strachan had been in charge at the start

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/12/2009 20:27
People Criticising Strachan...

the bad run we have been having may have happened under Southgate - it was a similar time last season that the opposition sussed us out and stopped our few danger men.

Probably Downing last season and Johnson this.

I think Gibson made a telling comment when he sacked Southgate that he thought our good results were not a reflection of our poor performances.

I used to be a Southgate fan but got sick of him after the leicester match in particular - that was just like last season revisited. He deserved to go.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 20:31
People Criticising Strachan...

I agree it was time he went, as much as I liked him as an individual his time was up.


But Strachans start has made him look like Alex Ferguson.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 20:32
People Criticising Strachan...

Ponderosa, Tuncay was our second top scorer when he left and was key in the first 4 games.

Points ratio with Huth and Tuncay in team = 83%
Points ratio with Huth in team = 66%
Points ratio without Huth and Tuncay = 39%
Strachan Points ratio = 27%

As you can see, the rot had already set in regardless of what strangeness you lot seem to come out with.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 20:33
People Criticising Strachan...

How many games did Tuncay start?

One?

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 20:34
People Criticising Strachan...

but strachan has had 3 premiership players on loan and is still worse

or are you conviniently leaving them out lisbon


thought so

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 20:34
People Criticising Strachan...

That is irrelevant as he was still used as an impact subistitute. Imagine if Strachan had him available to bring him on against Barnsley rather than a 16 year old child.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 20:37
People Criticising Strachan...

Dude, they were on loan and not match fit when they signed. They were there for numbers to make up for Southgates pi_ss poor management rather than a long term stratgey. How many loan players have we ever had that have made a serious impact.

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 20:40
People Criticising Strachan...

oh, so strachan picked unfit players ahead of fit ones

is that what your saying?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 20:42
People Criticising Strachan...

When the players in question are Lita and Emnes, I think the answer has to be yes. Dear me, what has Southgate turned us into.[cr]

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/12/2009 20:44
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon, the truth is that Southgates time was up and deservedly so and WGS has woefully underachieved with a squad capable of challenging for promotion.

Both deserve criticism in seperate ways.

The_Dude Posted on 30/12/2009 20:45
People Criticising Strachan...

the same lita and emnes who look 25 times more threatening than bent, who strachan want to sign full time, and you sit straight faced criticising southgate for lita and emnes!


as for kitson, yea, he scored against peterbrough, but even he was subbed in all of his games bar 1 through pure ineptitude

foggysfplandiet2 Posted on 30/12/2009 20:55
People Criticising Strachan...

Johnny Ingbar has it spot on.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 21:04
People Criticising Strachan...

Jonny, and this is the part where I vehemently disagree "a squad capable of challenging for promotion". I think that is a load of rubbish, we were thrashed at home 5-0 by West Brom and that says it all for me. The statement was true when we had Huth and Tuncay but not anymore.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 21:06
People Criticising Strachan...

Dude, Kitson, despite not being fit, had a better goals to games ratio than both Lita and Emnes. Also, where does it say that Strachan wants to sign Bent full time. If you are going to spout yuour dribble at least make it sort of believeable.[:D]

br14 Posted on 30/12/2009 22:09
People Criticising Strachan...

"we were thrashed at home 5-0 by West Brom"

And we beat Liverpool 2-0 at home last season but we were still relegated.

You can't take a single result out of context and claim it as representative.

The table doesn't lie. Check the average points per game or whatever. By an measure Southgate wins by a country mile.

What we have here is a group of posters who rather would rather blame anything at all than admit bringing in Strachan was a mistake.

What Jonny Ingbar says is spot on. Southgate needed to go, but we've ended up with worse. At least Southgate could blame lack of experience.

All we can hope is he buys the Celtic players he's supposed to be after and we turn things around.

newyddion Posted on 30/12/2009 22:16
People Criticising Strachan...

Who would Southgate have brought in on loan?
He was after a Striker when he was fired.

Who would he have signed in January with 10m?

Signing St Ledger was probably Southgate's downfall.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 22:32
People Criticising Strachan...

West Brom was not a lone result as we failed to score in 50% of our home games under Southgate. The 3 games we did win were far from convincing, the rot started well before Strachan.

SidSnot Posted on 30/12/2009 22:37
People Criticising Strachan...

I also think Jon Ing is pretty spot on.

And Lisbon your use of stats is misleading. Fact is we still got over twice as many points in nine games post Huth than we have in eleven post Southgate.

I think almost everyone agrees now that Southgate had to go. Some of us just think Strachan is currently underachieving. Given the facts (ie points), it's a fair argument.

I can see the logic of Strachan's appointment. My guess is the prevailing view within the club was that we had a half decent group of players, but needed a couple more with experience and a manager who could add a little steel mentally (given our soft underbelly) and be a little more tactically astute (see Gibson's reference to substitutions). Gibson himself said and it's been repeated above that he felt our league position flattered our performances. Agreed - but I don't think that he thought our true level was lower bottom half (which is where our form is).

I also struggle a little with the argument that the squad / team is gash. There seems a general consensus that GON, Wheater and Pogatetz are Premier League players. Johnson is deemed to be one of the best players in the Chump League. Riggot, Williams and even McMahon were considered excellent players when loaned out to Chump clubs last year. And I really don't think there are many Chump clubs who would turn down Lita, Aliadiere and Hoyte. Oh and then we have three players on loan from Premier League clubs. Despite all this our squad is XXXXXXe and it's no surprise we're bottom half of the league. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. People's reference point is the quality of player they've watched in the last three to five years. For this league, this group of players is plenty good enough to be in the play off places.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 30/12/2009 23:40
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm not being patronising here Sid but have you been to the games this season? What makes you think we are anywhere near as good as Forest, West Brom and Newcastle?

SidSnot Posted on 30/12/2009 23:54
People Criticising Strachan...

I've been to three (although I do have a ST), which I accept puts me at a disadvantage to you guys who go to most. P'boro, QPR and Blackpool - and my overall impression was that we were / are a terrible team. You'll get no argument from me on that. However, the most striking thing was the players looked a shadow even of the same guys I'd seen struggling in the Premiership eight months previously.

SidSnot Posted on 31/12/2009 00:13
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon - just looked up Forest's team that beat Coventry. I bet there's hardly a player in that team below that any one on this board would get excited about if we bought them. I think what they're doing is fabulous and good luck to them, but I'm struggling to be convinced that we have XXXXXXe players when they're making it happen with a front two of Rob Earnshaw and Dexter Blackstock (never mind the rest). Bottom line is Billy Davies has really got them playing.

Camp
Gunter
Morgan
Wilson
Shorey
Cohen
McKenna(C)
Majewski(McGugan 84min)
Tyson(McCleary 62min)
Earnshaw(Adebola 74min)
Blackstock
Subs not used: Smith, Chambers, Anderson, McGoldrick,

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 00:26
People Criticising Strachan...

Why do you have a season ticket and not go, is it because we are garbage?

dodger Posted on 31/12/2009 00:30
People Criticising Strachan...

I'm not making excuses but Southgate was playing to the fiddlers tune.

Southgate should have been sacked after the Cardiff surrender.

Strachan has done nothing but make us worse.. ask cov and soton fans who have lived the dream.

SidSnot Posted on 31/12/2009 00:31
People Criticising Strachan...

Because I live in the US, but I want to support the club. Even when I was in London I probably only made a quarter of home games.

wokingmassive Posted on 31/12/2009 09:59
People Criticising Strachan...

For once I think Lisbon is right.

You can't make a wedding cake out of dog $hit.

The ginger ninja is trying to do the best he can with the current 'squad'. Surely its too early to judge him.


24_Briggsy Posted on 31/12/2009 10:25
People Criticising Strachan...

Strachan took over a poor squad, wether you liked the appointment or not he needs time to sort it out and make it his own. He was written off after a number of games, its obvious some people didnt like the appointment from the start. People need to realise he has a big job on his hands and that they need to put their agendas aside and give him time.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 10:34
People Criticising Strachan...

Tuncay's impact on this season is a myth ... 3 sub appearances scoring 2 goals in games we won by more than one clear goal.

Southgate should have been sacked in May and a new boss then given the chance to reshape the squad during the summer. And give a chance to disheartened fans to get enthused.

When he wasn't sacked he should have been given until the next transfer window to see what he could get out of the squad. Only if we were nowhere near a play-off spot should he have been replaced during the interim.

Sacking him and bringing in Strachan looks ok on paper but puts pressure on getting the immediate returns that the sacking dictates. Strachan has failed to do that. Spectacularly. Steve Gibson has heaped even more pressure on Strachan now to bring in the right players and produce a "title-winning" run of games to even get us into the play-offs.

I will repeat myself ad-nauseum that changing a manager mid-season should have a positive impact and bring better returns than the previous manager otherwise it is pointless. Telling yourself a manager needs a transfer window to get it right is patently wrong. Look at the effect Mark Robbins has had on a weaker squad than ours.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 11:10
People Criticising Strachan...

Sid, Forest have a load of capable Championship strikers in Blackstock, Earnshaw, Adebola, Tyson and a couple of good young lads aswell. All cpapable of offering something different an scoring goals. What do we have? Also Nicky Shorey at Lleft back has played for England. They have a well rounded squad from back to front, we have one or two decent players with a load of crap like Lita, Yeates, Emnes, Arca supplementing them).

Tuncay sealed the win against Swansea and also scored the opening goal against Doncaster after 16 minutes with his first touch. He added an assurance that we haven't had since if the first team players weren't doing the business.

The facts are that as a team we are poor and as a squad we are even worse so why Strachan shoudl suddenly turn a team beaten 5-0 at home that has no decent strikers into a Championship chasing squad is beyond me. I think some Boro fans still believe we are a Premiership side the way they go on.[rle]

flickster Posted on 31/12/2009 12:21
People Criticising Strachan...

The reason for Forest doing well with a half decent side is simple. Billy Davies !

A manager proven at getting teams to perform in the Championship. The earlier post about which Forest player would we choose is a valid one, because we would almost all say none of them. I'd take Shorey but thats it.

A point has been made that maybe the current crop of players are not responding to Strachans style, well as the majority of them are likely to still be here post transfer window, that doesn't give me positive vibes.

Shouldn't the sign of a good manager also be the ability to adapt his style to suit others, rather than a 100% disciplinarian, who cold shoulders players who don't respond to hard line tactics or are part of his favourite player clique, a comment made at every club he has managed..

Being a good disciplinarian has its merits, Clough and Ferguson are great examples, but they were also lucky to have great players that won matches, Strachan doesn't have that luxury, maybe he needs to blend his style to one that works, then maybe the players we are stuck with, might just respond more positively to him.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 12:29
People Criticising Strachan...

"The facts are that as a team we are poor and as a squad we are even worse so why Strachan shoudl suddenly turn a team beaten 5-0 at home that has no decent strikers into a Championship chasing squad is beyond me."

He should do it the same way Mark Robbins has by turning a bottom 3 side into a team that will go above us when they win their games in hand

BoroAl Posted on 31/12/2009 12:38
People Criticising Strachan...

I do believe we have a very split camp here.Last 2 posts are very telling tho'

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 12:40
People Criticising Strachan...

"The reason for Forest doing well with a half decent side is simple. Billy Davies !"

So any team, nomatter what the quality fo their squad will suddenly become a promotion chasing side if Billy Davies is put in charge, give your head a shake.[rle]

Ponderosa, I would take every one of Forests attackers over ours given the opportunity. They may not be big names but they are better than our strikers! As I said, some Boro fans still seem to think we have a Premiership team, take a look in the mirror lads.





bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 12:44
People Criticising Strachan...

5-0; a foul for the first - offside the second; their only three shots went in - we had more on-target but didn't hit the back of the net with their inspired goalkeeper's performance

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 12:47
People Criticising Strachan...

Why are the last 2 posts very telling?

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 12:52
People Criticising Strachan...

The second analyses what is really going on rather than idiotic semantics - the first is is a wind-up from someone who would rather see the rubbish on Monday that a winning Borro side?

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 12:52
People Criticising Strachan...

I would probably take their manager first.

BoroAl Posted on 31/12/2009 12:52
People Criticising Strachan...

Good Championship managers turned 2 relegation candidates into play off candidates with probably less resources than we have.This one turned a play off candidate into a relegation candidate.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 13:12
People Criticising Strachan...

Did they do it in 10 games with no signings?[rle]

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 13:27
People Criticising Strachan...

Davis - Forest in relegation trouble when he took over with 24 points from 26 games (that's a better ratio than Strachan mind you) - 16 points from their first 10 games under Davis - WOW a REAL MANAGER

HUMBERRED Posted on 31/12/2009 13:32
People Criticising Strachan...

The simple facts are that when he took over we were a point off the top. Also that thing about us not beating anyone in the top half........I'm sure I saw us win 3-0 at Swansea! If anybody is happy with our current demise then it beggars belief.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 13:33
People Criticising Strachan...

Robbins has signed 2 players from Stoke, neither of whom played against us I believe.

Strachan has signed 3 players from Premier League players and kept us at least as bad as we were

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 13:36
People Criticising Strachan...

Robins? Are you claiming Robins is a better manager than Strachan?

Repsect to Billy Davies who has done a brilliant job at Forest but he has also had difficult times elsewhere.

We beat Swansea when they were absolute rubbish and bottom of the table and at the time we had Hutha nd Tuncay. Some of you have a serious agenda against Strachan, the same as a lot of you did against McClaren. Moaning for the sake of it is not a healthy obsession.[V]

BoroAl Posted on 31/12/2009 13:36
People Criticising Strachan...

How many signings under Strachan Lisbon?And yes in 10 ish games.[8)]

BoroAl Posted on 31/12/2009 13:41
People Criticising Strachan...

Some of you have a serious agenda against Strachan, the same as a lot of you did against McClaren. Moaning for the sake of it is not a healthy obsession



Like a lot didn't have against Southgate?For the record I never had an agenda against Stevie Mac.I disagreed with the Strachan appointment when I heard the rumours,sooner have had Coppell but c'est la football.eh?

HUMBERRED Posted on 31/12/2009 13:42
People Criticising Strachan...

So we did beat a team in the top half then? If Swansea were rubbish does that mean it doesn't count? Under Strachan we have gone downhill fast in a poor league. The lack of crowd on saturday will speak volumes on what is happening. I will be rattling around on my own in the SW corner.

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 13:42
People Criticising Strachan...

"Robins? Are you claiming Robins is a better manager than Strachan?"

I have no idea if he is great, good or cack. But he is a prime example of how a manager can take a group of players and make them play better without the benefit of a transfer window or bemoaning the quality of the squad he has inherited. And because he is such a good example, Wee Chesney should not be impervious from criticism for not improving our position.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 13:45
People Criticising Strachan...

I was really impressed with the Notts Forest performance in the Cup. Not one of their players would have got into our side and, so, it must have had something to do with the manger. Just looked at Davies' record as a manager - amazing really

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 13:47
People Criticising Strachan...

It's brilliant the way you pick on these examples of how it should be done like every manager is in exactly the same situation and all he has to do si come in and work his magic. CLOUD CUCKOO LAND. We are rubbish and have been for 2 years, we are not a Premiership club and do not have Premiership players. We have a bunch of average kids with a smattering of half decent defenders and no strikers. I've been to the majority of games this season and not once have I thought we are a promotion chasing side. We need to sign players and the transfer window opens tomorrow. That is when you will hopefully be made to learn from your stupidity.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 13:51
People Criticising Strachan...

So this is all about "anything is better than Southgate" because "we've been rubbish for 2 years"

Shows how easily some people are fooled - anyone isn't better than Southgate who was going to get us promoted (that comment is less foolish than the rubbish above)

When Davies came in, he said he needed to sign players but then turned around a losing side to win three in a row without any additions . . .

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 13:54
People Criticising Strachan...

No, it's about Rome not being built in a day and the abhorrent decline we have so far face won't be changed overnight cos we bring in a new manager. The general apathy surrounding the club is not something Billy Davies or Mark Robbins has to put up with. Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting to be honest.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 14:02
People Criticising Strachan...

Apathy? 1 point from the top - we were on a HIGH!

Now we've got 8 points from 10 games and challenging to have the worst record in the whole of the football league (I think Stockport are just above us there)

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 14:05
People Criticising Strachan...

Billy Davies has taken some time to get the team playing the way he wants and make them a credible promotion threat. But he improved the performances almost immediately.
Mark Robbins has made Barnsley into a team that are very difficult to beat and do not falter even when a goal down. If they continue to improve they will be pushing for a play-off place.
Gordon Strachan has taken a demoralised team and not improved them ONE IOTA. He keeps saying he knows what is wrong with the team. When will he do something about it ? He should have done something after 4 games. The minimum was to put out a team that kept a clean sheet. A point a game would have given us a better return and also stopped a few challengers from getting all 3.

January is going to be a big month for Chesney. I hope he gets it right but I have seen nothing to suggest he will.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 14:08
People Criticising Strachan...

As I will repeat, we are not Barnsley or Forest. We are middlesbrough and our situation is far different from both of those clubs. They know what the Championship has been all about for years, we don't, we are not use to having crap players and losing to rubbish. If we were having this conversation in February then you may have a lot more bite to your argument but to be honest at the moment you just embarrass yourselves.

mwelolo Posted on 31/12/2009 14:13
People Criticising Strachan...

Interesting to note the people who put Strachan's shortcomings down purely to the quality of the squad he has inherited(aside from his loan signings!), even stating the squad has been poor for years.

Indeed it has but many of these people argued with this assertion last season and the one before it, whilst stating that Southgate would get it right.

How people's views change.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 14:19
People Criticising Strachan...

I think LL has just admitted he will (publicly) change his view in February

Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 31/12/2009 14:23
People Criticising Strachan...

"They know what the Championship has been all about for years, we don't,"

Is the offside rule different ? Do you get less subs ? Is there an over head height rule ? Or is it just football ?

I think the embarrassment lies in protecting a man who has contributed to making our plight worse when the reason he was brought in was to make it better

mwelolo Posted on 31/12/2009 14:34
People Criticising Strachan...

It's a smoke screen.

What did Bryan Robson know of the second division?

If we were good enough we would would be succesful in the Championship, we're not and Strachan's done nothing to improve us.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 14:44
People Criticising Strachan...

It's a smoke screen.

What did Gareth Southgate know of the second division?

We were good enough to be successful in the Championship, now we're not as Strachan has somehow sent us backwards

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 15:56
People Criticising Strachan...

"I think the embarrassment lies in protecting a man who has contributed to making our plight worse when the reason he was brought in was to make it better"

What a joke, Strachan doesn't need protecting, as he said, he knows who's opinions to give a stuff about and who's not to. I will happily admit Strachan isn't the man for the job if we are struggling in March or April. As it is I find it a bit sad that people can castigate a person after 10 games of a season in which he has had to put up with a pathetic side with no backbone and no strikers. It is obvious it is a personal attack on the man rather than a valid judgement on the situation at hand.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 17:14
People Criticising Strachan...

Smokescreen.[:D] It's funny how there is very ltittle criticism of the players in order to have a Strachan witchunt, excellent work.

HolgateCorner Posted on 31/12/2009 17:39
People Criticising Strachan...

I reckon there has been some absolute garbage spouted on this thread.

Gordon Strachan will either prove to be a good or bad manager for the Boro but you can't make that judgement yet and anybody trying to is a total clown who belongs to this new generation of 'I want it now' supporters.

I sat with a Coventry fan at the Boxing Day match (son in law of a big Scunny fan I used to work with) and he said he had no complaints about Strachan as a manager for them, built a couple of good sides and went down because of lack of funds.

I know a few Celtic fans and they reckon Tony Mowbray is very likely to be sacked quickly. That is a big club to survive as manager for a few years and have a better record at it than Martin O'Neill (who one or two on here seem to worship for some reason - I see Arsenal and Liverpool have started to put Villa in their place recently).

My in laws are all Derby fans - ask them what they think of the current Forest manager - he left Derby County absolutely on its knees in the premier league and they still haven't recovered. Proper manager my backside.

FFS, open your eyes and get some sense in your heads for the new year.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 17:42
People Criticising Strachan...

Crcking post HC.[ref]

HolgateCorner Posted on 31/12/2009 17:50
People Criticising Strachan...

Lisbon - they make me sick, I know Boro fans will always have different opinions on everything to do with the club and rightly so but I just cannot be doing with some of the cra* that is getting put on here about a new manager who has only been in the job for a couple of months.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 31/12/2009 17:52
People Criticising Strachan...

Exacty HC, it is absolutely embarrassing and incredibly childish.[^]

SidSnot Posted on 31/12/2009 18:13
People Criticising Strachan...

Come on guys, you're being extremist in response to a few extremist posters.

Do I want Strachan sacked - no.
Should he be given time - yes.
Should Gibbo fund him - yes (if he has the money and wants to give it to the club).
Am I really disappointed at the start he's made - yes I am. I do feel he should have done a lot better.

Nothing childish about that.

bear66 Posted on 31/12/2009 18:22
People Criticising Strachan...

Hopefully Ali gets over his ankle injury sooner rather than later. The results will then begin to turn around.

mwelolo Posted on 31/12/2009 18:40
People Criticising Strachan...

It's sad that some people are so polarised.

Many of us have acknowledged many times that our squad is crap, I've been saying it for years whilst many on here have argued that it was a good squad.

There has been disapointment expresssed that There is not yet any evidence of Strachan having any positive impact on the team.

Surely people would have expected something from an experienced supposedly quality coach by now.

Very few people are saying sack him, others are merely saying he is uderperforming and he is not having the impact that many had hoped for, and I'm sure that includes Gibson.

Strachan is not above criticism just because he has inherited a poor squad.

Any sensible Boro fan will hope to god he gets it right, bloody soon.

What is your problem with that?

SidSnot Posted on 31/12/2009 18:57
People Criticising Strachan...

mwelolo [^]

br14 Posted on 31/12/2009 18:59
People Criticising Strachan...

I think mwelolo sums it up well.

Have to say though, that given the choice I'd have preferred a different manager.

So if there were no consequences of course I'd replace him. Just like I'd have replaced Southgate sooner (I'd have never selected him in the first place).

Unfortunately in the real world we're stuck with him.

So as mwelolo says, I hope he sorts things out ASAP.