permalink for this thread : http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/1593273
ridsdale Posted on 14/12/2009 22:57
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Worth a listen for all you doubters.


Link: Nick Cohen

Old_Gregg Posted on 15/12/2009 00:06
Nick Cohen on climate change.

I'm surprised, I didn't think anyone was still falling for the climate change con. Or is it the global warming con. I forget what they are calling it this week, everytime a theory is proved wrong they just come back with a different name.

A few facts for people:
1. The earth isn't warming, it's cooling, and has been for the best part of a decade now.
2. Even when the earth was warming there was no proof that carbon was causing it. In fact, there is more proof that carbon has nothing to do with it. See the link for details.

There are some very gullible people out there.


Link: Where is the hotspot?

pierrequiroule Posted on 15/12/2009 00:12
Nick Cohen on climate change.

That's what I like about this board, it's crammed with experts on every subject under the sun, but remember, there's none so gullible as those who dupe themselves.

Old_Gregg Posted on 15/12/2009 00:26
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Couldn't agree more mate. People need to check out the facts for themselves instead of just blindly accepting what politicians and the media tell them.

br14 Posted on 15/12/2009 00:36
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Fair enough Old Gregg, the earth is now in a cooling cycle, but from a peak back in 2000.

Still means the earth generally is warmer than it was 50 years ago.

I think the only question is whether carbon dioxide as a green house gas is the major contributor to heating.

Whether it is or not, there's plenty to be gained and not much to lose in reducing dependency on fossil fuels.

Where there is an issue is in how you motivate people to engage.

Seems to me that any taxation system based on carbon is doomed to failure, as the worlds best minds get going on how to circumvent the tax system.

Surely providing incentives to migrate to "greener" technologies is the way forward.

The suspicious among us wonder why governments are so keen on tax systems, but have failed to do anything about providing incentives (except maybe Germany).

Old_Gregg Posted on 15/12/2009 00:59
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Great post br14 [^]

SNOWBANDIT Posted on 15/12/2009 01:03
Nick Cohen on climate change.

I am naturally suspicious when something is "taxed" for the greater good -as br14 says, where are the carrots - using stick all the time is surely counter productive in persuading the great unwashed to mend their dirty carbon ways - meaning as it currently does the poorer pay more, but the wealthy just carry on as per usual ( Al Gores leccy bill? - hypocrite).

How much of the green taxes paid ACTUALLY goes into green measures? Even the Treasury admits they are revenue raisers...but with "green signals" - that's just waffle and spin.

If they were really serious - then we would be cycling tomorrow,the fact is it's a wheeze at our gullible expense.

When politicians do less of the old " do as I say and not as I do ", then perhaps I'll be prepared to listen ...otherwise, they can do one.

speckyget Posted on 15/12/2009 09:22
Nick Cohen on climate change.

'Surely providing incentives to migrate to "greener" technologies is the way forward.'

Agree in principle, but because this issue has been ignored for decades there is a pressing need for something to happen now. Unfortunately the lead times and investment required to garner equivalent energy from alternatives are huge, and we've barely eaten into either yet. So damping down demand has to be the priority for now, and this will of course hit the world's poorest hardest. But then what doesn't?


nidge Posted on 15/12/2009 09:38
Nick Cohen on climate change.

"Still means the earth generally is warmer than it was 50 years ago."

As are all the planets in the solar system - something the 'greenhouse' lobby conviently forget to mention as it puts a spanner in the works.

Man-made CO2 is negligible. Solar activity is the prime cause of warming on ALL the planets, not just earth. Al Gore and his songsheet scientists will have us believing their are Martians driving around Mt Olympus in gas-guzzling 4x4's to explain his next "theory" away [;)]

Lefty Posted on 15/12/2009 09:59
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Old Gregg,

Can you tell me where the Science and Public Policy Institute obtain their funding?

toxic_bob Posted on 15/12/2009 10:05
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Exxon, I believe

TheSmogMonster Posted on 15/12/2009 10:06
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Just noticed Old Gregg's link is by Christopher Monckton, disregard, the guys an admittedly posh walter mitty, claims in the American media that he used to be Thatchers Science Minister - he wasn't. He's a bit like Littlejohn to be honest.

I still don't understand how this year being the hottest on record and 7 of the last 10 (or whatever) being in the top ten hottest years on record, fits in with the 'its not happening crowd'

"Solar activity is the prime cause of warming on ALL the planets, not just earth."

Solar activity is at an all time low mate, so how does that work?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/615061/very_low_solar_activity_causes_some.html

This year has been the lowest levels on record I believe, so thats a killer spanner for that argument.

The question remaining isn't really whether global warming/climate change isn't happening, but to what degree we have, and can influence it. Its pretty hard to deny nothing is happening when the real data is showing new highs all the time.

j_d76 Posted on 15/12/2009 10:21
Nick Cohen on climate change.

It amazes me that people still watch some news clip with some talking head and believe everything that comes out of his mouth is unquestionably the truth. These so-called experts are professional liars, its what they do for a living. They lie about trivial matters such as fiddling their expenses to major history changing events like convincing the world that Iraq has WMD's to justify an illegal war against it, kill hundreds of thousands of its people, and rape it of all its wealth and natural resources so a few mega-rich corporations can get even richer.

But of course they wouldn't lie about the causes of global warming would they? Especially when so much money is at stake and so many political careers can be made off the back of it. Al Gore even won a XXXXXXing oscar off it ffs! [rle]

The internet is a wondeful thing, almost the sum total of human learning, knowledge, and information is at your fingertips, yet people can't be bothered to do a little digging of their own, get some alternative viewpoints (ones that are never aired because they don't fit the agenda), take all that information from ALL sides - not just the officially biased one - and then DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES what sits true with them. No, its much easier to watch Sky News and take everything as gospel. Much easier to post a link to a newsclip and say 'told you so'.

Thankfully most of the people I know were once like the OP but now no longer trust anything they see on TV or read in papers these days. The tide is turning and people are beginning to see through all the bullshyte they've been fed year after year. Mainly because its becomming so blatant there is absolutly no excuse for anyone NOT to question stuff like climate change, swine flu, dodgy vaccines, credit crunch, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc... I can't wait to see what they'll throw at us in 2010 [ref]

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 15/12/2009 10:41
Nick Cohen on climate change.

One of the best researched, unbiased & easily digested views I've seen in ages on this subject....


Link: information is beautiful

nidge Posted on 15/12/2009 10:52
Nick Cohen on climate change.

"I still don't understand how this year being the hottest on record and 7 of the last 10 (or whatever) being in the top ten hottest years on record, fits in with the 'its not happening crowd'"

You do know that records began in 1862 right? So the previous 4.5 billion years don't count then. It was hotter in Europe during the medieval climate optimum than it is today - fact. It was so warm at one point vikings colonies were growing crops in Greenland, which was a lush fertile continent. So when someone uses the phrase "the hottest day since records began", they say it purely for dramatic effect and to emphasise the agenda they're pushing. And no one is arguing "its not happening". We can see global warming with our own eyes. The argument is about what is the main cause. Politicians say it is man-made, scientific evidence (from those scientists that don't rely on government funding) say it is a natural phenomena.


"Solar activity is at an all time low mate, so how does that work?"

You're talking about a decrease in solar activity that began in 2005. The whole global warming theory is based on the last 150 years, not the last 5 years. Solar activity recently hit a 1000 year peak. Incidently, I think the Times Online carried an article last year saying scientist think the next decade is going to get cooler due to a temporary dip in solar activity. Doesn't quite fit the CO2 is the be all and end all theory does it.

-------------
Sun Energy Output At Over 1,000 Year Peak

“We have to acknowledge that the Sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago, and this brightening started relatively recently – in the last 100 to 150 years. We expect it to have an impact on global warming,” he told swissinfo.

The sun's brightness hasn't changed much over the last 20 years. But it has been brighter for the last 60 years than it has been at any time in the last 1,150 years.

According to scientists, the Sun’s radiance has changed little during this period. But looking back over 1,150 years, Solanki found the Sun had never been as bright as in the past 60 years.


The team studied sunspot data going back several hundred years. They found that a dearth of sunspots signalled a cold period - which could last up to 50 years - but that over the past century their numbers had increased as the Earth's climate grew steadily warmer. The scientists also compared data from ice samples collected during an expedition to Greenland in 1991. The most recent samples contained the lowest recorded levels of beryllium 10 for more than 1,000 years. Beryllium 10 is a particle created by cosmic rays that decreases in the Earth's atmosphere as the magnetic energy from the Sun increases. Scientists can currently trace beryllium 10 levels back 1,150 years.

Sunspots have been increasing in number as the Earth has been getting warmer.

Over the past few hundred years, there has been a steady increase in the numbers of sunspots, a trend that has accelerated in the past century, just at the time when the Earth has been getting warmer.

Variations in sunspot activity are probably behind the increases and decreases in solar radiation and consequence changes in Earth's climate.

During the Medieval maximum of 1000-1300 there was an extremely large Sunspot which is believed to have warmed the Earth higher than normal. There were no accurate measurements of the weather to call upon during this time but the discovery and colonization of Greenland by Eric the Red supports this hypothesis. Eric was exiled from Iceland for manslaughter and sailed west discovering Greenland. He then led many ships, filled with people who wanted to make a fresh start, to this new land. For 300 years Greenland flourished, new communities settled, trade with other countries grew, and the population increased. Around 1325 the climate cooled down considerably, people started to abandon the northern settlements. By 1350 glaciers covered the northern settlements, and the southern most settlements were dying out as well.

The Sporer minimum of 1400-1510 and the Maunder minimum of 1645-1715 were each known as a "little ice age." They were both droughts in Sunspot activity, and a link to a time of abnormally cold weather on Earth. In addition to finishing off the Greenland colonies, the Sporer minimum showed increased rates of famine in the world, and the Baltic Sea froze solid in the winter of 1422-23. Some of the more notable effects of the Maunder minimum included the appearance of glaciers in the Alps advancing farther southward, the north sea froze, and in London there was the famous year without a summer where it remained cold for 21 consecutive months.

The evidence supports the effect of Sunspot activity on the Earth's climate, but that is only one of many areas that effects us on Earth. On March 13,1989 a large Sunspot ignited powerful flares that tripped the circuit breakers a generator station. The started the collapse of the Quebec power system and left people without power for hours to days. These same flares damaged several man made satellites, and caused smaller outages all over the U.S and Canada. There are countless other times when large Sunspots have effected similar damage to various electrical systems on Earth.

The Sun could start going through a down trend in sunspot activity at any time. We could find ourselves back in a state similar to the Maunder Minimum with decades of much colder weather. Or sunspot activity could increase to an even higher level and temperatures could rise more than the amount some models project as a consequence of higher atmospheric carbon dioxide. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002242.html
------------

nidge Posted on 15/12/2009 11:01
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Interseting website smogontherhine [^]

I particulaly liked the part that states "When the evidence dosen't fit, the scientists edit the evidence" "Scientists correct their results when new evidence comes to light".

But no mention of secret emails between collegues desperately trying to get the numbers to fit the graphs. [;)]

rivals_oldschool Posted on 15/12/2009 11:02
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Lefty, the guy who chairs the the UN climate body, the IPCC, has more than mere casual links with the TaTa group.

Low and behold look who suddenly has a windfall of carbon credits worth billions, Corus.

I don't believe a word they say.

Lefty Posted on 15/12/2009 11:38
Nick Cohen on climate change.

So there are political influences on both sides of the argument. It seems sensible to me not to place too much reliance on individual reports or groups, but to listen to the majority view of the scientific community, who arrive at their conclusions based on peer reviewed evidence and reports. This means they do look at criticisms and conflicting evidence and take them into consideration. Wouldn't you agree?

I think there is an overwhelming consensus that mankind is having quite an effect. The main discussion is how to go about reducing that.


pierrequiroule Posted on 15/12/2009 11:49
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Old Gregg, you just proved my point.

nidge Posted on 15/12/2009 12:03
Nick Cohen on climate change.

"It seems sensible to me not to place too much reliance on individual reports or groups, but to listen to the majority view of the scientific community, who arrive at their conclusions based on peer reviewed evidence and reports."

And you forgot to mention rely on governement funding for their projects. Which kind of skews the authenticity.

There are 2 sides. One has a vested interest and is under constant pressure to produce the result we're fed through the media and by politicians. The other is the alternative view that comes from equally qualified people but who don't rely on government funding for their projects. For example over 30000 scientists recently threatend to sue Al Gore for mis-leading the public with his documentary about Global Warming. I bet you didn't see that on Sky News.

The whole point of the argument is for people to stop believing everything that comes out of official channels and do some alternative research of their own, make up their own mind. If you then still come to the conclusion that our governement is being truthful about the causes of global warming then fair enough, at least you made your own mind up rather than have it made up for you 'cos it was on the tele'.

And for the record, I don't think anyone is saying global warming isn't happening, evidence on both sides says it is, and we can see it with our own eyes. The argument is about what are the main causes. I believe we're being manipulated to believe its all our fault and we need new laws, legistaltion, and taxes to fix it. Yet at the same time, no govenment has yet come up with a plan to save us from iimpending catastrophe, and the USA (the worlds biggest polluter) still hasn't signed the Kyoto treaty as far as I know. You'll even get fined and given a criminal record if you convert your car to run on biofuel because the government makes no tax duty off you! Says it all. Its all about wealth, not health.


Link: 30000 scientists disagree

rivals_oldschool Posted on 15/12/2009 12:06
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Nice if it were to actually happen that way Lefty but it is not.

The business connections involved renders the science pointless.
A brief look at Corus demonstrates it, they’re being financed to simply close one plant down and reopen a new one in India and trade in some billion pounds worth of carbon credits in the process.

It’s also the real reason why the Copenhagen talks have broke down.

It turns out the funds from climate financing, originally allocated to go to the UN and then be doled out piecemeal to third world nations, will instead be paid directly into the coffers of the World Bank and IMF, organizations that have made a habit out of looting poorer countries.

The point is some champagne socialists made up exclusively of callous millionaires have absolutely zero interest in reforming the gamed system that made them rich in the first place.



Link: link

mattrich Posted on 15/12/2009 12:10
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Anyone who thinks the world is warming up just needs to look outside, its bloody freezing!

plazmuh Posted on 15/12/2009 12:20
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Sorry fella but all the governments let the military and civilian aircraft spray XXXXXXe into the atmosphere on a daily basis then expect the taxpayer to fund it.
Also what are they trying to hide


Link: This Goes On All The Time

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 15/12/2009 12:22
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Climate change is happening and will continue to happen. Humans can't alter that.

We don't have a clue what has happened on our planet over Millions of years, it's all theories.

Green issues will get us out of the recession, jobsworths checking bins etc.

All the crusties who painted themselves blue the other week to highlight climate change should ask where the blue stuff would go when they/if they have a wash.

GaZBoro Posted on 15/12/2009 12:29
Nick Cohen on climate change.

plazmuh Posted on 15/12/2009 12:20
Nick Cohen on climate change.
Email Message To A Friend | Reply To Message

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorry fella but all the governments let the military and civilian aircraft spray XXXXXXe into the atmosphere on a daily basis then expect the taxpayer to fund it.
Also what are they trying to hide

Link: This Goes On All The Time




i actually just noticed this for the first time last week, out walking up at castle eden walkway on a clear blue morning, then 12 jets one after another criss crossed the sky and turned the rest of the day into an overcast miserable grey day. is this about climate change keeping the earth cooler of is their something more sinister going on? and no they weren't contrails, contrails are short and dissapear after a few minutes, these where like those in your link, stretching from horizon to horizon and dispersing very slowly to form a blanket of cloud [?]

j_d76 Posted on 15/12/2009 14:00
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Don't get me started on the Copenhagen summit. [V][|)]


Link: Al Gore, bullsh!tter extraordinaire

ridsdale Posted on 15/12/2009 16:31
Nick Cohen on climate change.

So, I have to worry more about some crack head conspiracy theory that says the government is spraying chemicals from planes to poison me than the work of hundreds of brilliant scientists who are warning me about mans increasing industrial pollution of the atmosphere?


Old_Gregg Posted on 15/12/2009 16:52
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Hundreds of brilliant scientists, who just happen to be funded by the very governments who can make fortunes from so-called "green" taxes. Honestly ridsdale, I didn't expect you to be so gullible.

ridsdale Posted on 15/12/2009 16:54
Nick Cohen on climate change.

And these climate sceptics are funded by who?

Old_Gregg Posted on 15/12/2009 16:59
Nick Cohen on climate change.

The realists tend to be university professors or working for seats of learning, hence giving them a degree of impartiality that the alarmists can't match.

ridsdale Posted on 15/12/2009 17:03
Nick Cohen on climate change.

So, do you think that all these professors who are warning of climate change got together at a Xmas party and said "I know a good scam..."


It is beyond belief.


I blame Top Gear.

Funky_Tuncay Posted on 15/12/2009 17:19
Nick Cohen on climate change.

Yes, the government never lies. And there is no money to be made off the great carbon con. We're all doomed. Make sure you don't leave your TV on standby overnight. And don't worry that places like Las Vegas are lit up like an xmas tree 365 days a year wasting enough energy to power a third-world country. Just do your bit like a good citizen, pay your green tax, recycle your milk bottles, and don't leave your TV on standby overnight (yes its so important I said it twice) [smi]

Holgate_Hero_The_Final_Insult Posted on 15/12/2009 23:58
Nick Cohen on climate change.

old_gregg is obviously an expert on this matter and has blown the lid off such a barrel of schit!

why isnt this bloke on newsnight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

borospark Posted on 16/12/2009 00:57
Nick Cohen on climate change.

"So, do you think that all these professors who are warning of climate change got together at a Xmas party and said "I know a good scam..."

You obviously didnt read the numerous posts from about 3 weeks ago on the club of rome, cant remember which poster it was now


Link: ....

plazmuh Posted on 16/12/2009 13:39
Nick Cohen on climate change.

FAO RIDSDALE
Do you mean the hundreds of scientists who are jumping on the bandwagon looking for a cash injection to continue their research
So they have no hidden adgenda of their own
HAVE THEY.
And as for the chemtrail thing it happens all day long all the time. Just because you can,t see it that don,t make it a lie,
Try looking up sometime its happening and you fella are wrong on this occasion.
[:D][^][^]
regards
plazmuh

zaphod Posted on 16/12/2009 14:03
Nick Cohen on climate change.

The trouble with the climate debate is that the stage is being hogged by fanatics at both ends of the spectrum so it's impossible for ordinary people like me to form a balanced view. The disclosures about the Climate Research Unit at UEA's willingness to "adjust" temperature data to fit pre-ordained conclusions just proved that scientific objectivity has been lost in this whole business, but this is balanced by the selectivity of the climate change sceptics.

There are a few undeniable facts (Arctic ice melting & some glaciers disappearing; increase in CO2 emissions), but not enough to form an opinion about the seriousness. My default position is that reducing energy use, switching to alternative energy sources & saving the rainforest can be justified without reference to climate change, so we should do those. I think the carbon credit system is ludicrous & unworkable.

PS: The year without a summer was 1816 & was caused by the massive Tambora volcanic eruption, not by normal climate fluctuations.

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