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MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:24
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

But the clown we have now admits to SSN he doesn't.

"Where we end up que sera, sera, but we have to find a formula that makes us more of a goal threat. At the moment I can't put my finger on it.

GET HIM OUT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.


Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 18:26
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Missing the spin and bull are you?

Towell Posted on 24/11/2009 18:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

fuq off

joebonano Posted on 24/11/2009 18:28
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Dickhead

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

The guy obviously either doesn't think before he speaks or is treating the hole we're now in as a joke.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:31
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Joe, please tell us why you think he's doing a good job

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 18:32
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

He's just started FFS!!!

He, or whoever took over from the oaf, needs a good year or two to sort the mess out.

Buddy Posted on 24/11/2009 18:32
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

You're funny [:D]

joebonano Posted on 24/11/2009 18:37
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I presume this is a wind up.Nobody can judge a manager after 3 games.I believe it was Sir Alex no less who said something on the lines" you need a year to get the players out you dont want, a year to get those in you do want and a year to get them playing in the way you want".

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"He's just started."

Mmm, he was interviewed for the job before Southgate was sacked so surely he was planning on doing something more than take us towards relegation.

boroandproud2 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

That is the way Strachan plays to the media. Having said that regardless, he is doing a very poor job so far at getting the players to perform.

Buddy Posted on 24/11/2009 18:39
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Did he add "and then you've got ten games before you get fired because your chairman has a bit of a panic"?

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:42
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Joe, he may have said that but he also said an apprenticeship in management is 6 years.

Southgate was also under orders to do everything he did but get us relegated. SG accepted that others were as much to blame for relegation.

Mavrick Posted on 24/11/2009 18:45
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Expecting promotion and a miracle from Strachan this season is like asking Lewis Hamilton to take a Fiesta and go win a Formula one race. What we have in place in terms of players at the moment is not a relection of Strachans success/failings as manager but more as Southgates failings to build a strong and effective team.

Old_Gregg Posted on 24/11/2009 18:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Southgates failings to build a strong and effective team"

But a team that he managed to one point off the top. Does this mean Southgate is a better manager than Strachan?

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Southgates failings to build a strong and effective team."

Some might say Southgate being forced to sell players he stated he wanted to keep is not his failling.


borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I suspect we'd all take two points per game from Strachan until the end of the season, after all, that would only give him parity with Southgate.

Bukowski Posted on 24/11/2009 18:51
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We were already on the wane when Southgate was sacked.

In fact, we've been sh~t since we sold Huth and Tuncay. And that's no coincidence.

captain5 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:52
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

It's more the players he brought in to replace them that were the problem.

Even when we've stated what the problems are, the actions we've taken haven't actually addressed those issues and in some cases haven't even tried to.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 18:52
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

'But a team that he managed to one point off the top. Does this mean Southgate is a better manager than Strachan?'

Old Gregg, any idera how many games we won in the last 11 before Southgate left? If you think that was promotion form you haven't been watching very long.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:54
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

He only brought in players he was allowed to and probably on the recommendations of others.

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:54
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

None of you like seeing that we took 6 points from his last three games in charge.

Face it, if we go down, the Southaters will be responsible.

captain5 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:55
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Surely the new manager has the same restrictions then??

Gibson actually decided we'd go for Osbourne and Kitson.

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 18:58
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Bukowski, Corcaigh et al, 2 pts per game over the season up until he left. It would have been better were it not for the blip between WBA and Reading.

It's an inconvenient truth.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 18:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Captain, not like you to twist what has been said.


Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 19:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

'He only brought in players he was allowed to and probably on the recommendations of others.'

Ah I see. So Southgate's team was somebody else's fault. I haven't much time for Southgate as a manager, but to suggest he had no spine is going a bit far isn't it?

Stupidity knows no bounds on this board.


captain5 Posted on 24/11/2009 19:01
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't think you've been watching properly.

A lot of the old mistakes, even away from home, were starting to appear again, particularly with regard to late goals.

We were told we'd bring experience in over the summer as we'd been too experienced. We did nothing of the sort; two 24 year olds and a reserve 'keeper in and all the ones who left, with the exception of Turnbull, were experienced.

Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 19:02
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

The reason we sold players that he wanted to keep was because he got us relegated. Perhaps that is the inconvenient truth.

2 points per game is good. However, the league table and the points tally flattered us. We had not beaten a side in the top half, we were playing poorly and he seemed to have lost the plot.

Anyone suggesting that he would have been a better option than Strachan is kidding themselves. Strachan has had 3 games. To judge him now is, in a very basic way, stupid.

boksic Posted on 24/11/2009 19:04
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

See my comments on the which is it? thread.

The identity of the manager is more or less irrelevant. What teams spend on players wages relative to the rest of the teams in the division is the predictor of how many points the team will accrue over the course of the season.

boromutt Posted on 24/11/2009 19:07
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm FECKING!!!! sick of hearing 1 point off the top from Southgate lovers, the truth is we've only gained 9 points from the last 10 games we've a garbage squad built by that clown. It will take a long time sort out the mess left behind no chance of promotion untill next season at the earliest.

Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 19:07
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

You're a good turn boksic but you're on too long!!!!!!!!!

There are those of us that disagree with that and have explained why the stats you use might be fundamentally flawed, which has gone without reply.

The identity of the manager is far from irrelevant.

redisameancolour Posted on 24/11/2009 19:07
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Hyperthetically speaking wud Alex Ferguson, Jose Morinho, Arsene Wenger etc had any better impact on this squad of players ???


Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 24/11/2009 19:08
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Only time will tell if Strachan has been a good appointment.

But there was so much bad feeling towards Southgate towards the end that people would seize on every small remark and use it to beat him over the head.

If Southgate had said some of the thing Strachan had said he'd have been crucified on here.

But Southgate can be judged over an extended period of time and during that time he ultimately wasn't up to the job; however harsh a statement that might be its the simple truth.

Strachan has had three games and lets be hinest, things were hardly rosy when he took over, despite our position.

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 19:09
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi, Bukowski, Corcaigh

2 pts a game was good yes. So was a wins to games ratio of aprrox 64% ... which Strachan has only ever managed to achieve with Celtic. He has never got anywhere near that with Cov or Saints.

Sorry to XXXXXX on your chips like.

Mavrick Posted on 24/11/2009 19:14
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I cant believe people are summing up Southgate with this one point of the top. He was a poor manager who did nothing but break unwanted records for Boro. He got us relegated! I find it hard to forget how he developed the worst team I have seen at boro in a very long time yet some on here fail to acknowledge how he contributed to the shocking decline of results and entertainment.

Strachan has been in charge for only a few weeks yet people are judging him for having to pick the mess that Southgate left. To judge who is a better manager you have to compare it like for like so give him chance to develop his team and ideas then judge him!

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 19:22
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We won three and drew one at the start of the season against struggling teams. We won 4 out of the next eleven.

The goons point to this one point off the top as if it was the equivalent of a trophy. we had already hit the skids. How come you couldn't see it?

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 19:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We CAN compare like for like....same players. Strachan 1 from 9, Souhgate 6 from 9. Easy.

Plymouth and Palace are hardly worldbeaters. Where are Swansea in the table?

Strachan is the manager now, and I want him to do well. So far, he hasn't impressed, apart from in his press conferences.


Old_Gregg Posted on 24/11/2009 19:57
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Not quite same players borolad259 - Strachan has actually strengthened the squad and yet the results and performances have got worse. Like or hate Southgate, that is a fact.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 24/11/2009 20:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I find it really funny that when you use the arguments against Strachan that some used against Southgate the abuse you get.

Keep on lads, but the those with wise old heads will be proved right.

boksic Posted on 24/11/2009 20:05
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi - these are not "my" statistics, it is real research done by university professors.

If you can be a big enoug man about it try for a few days to apply the logic to footballing issues and you will see it is the only theory that makes any real sense:

Strachan won the league at Celtic, they were to wage payers

Strachan took Coventry down, in a period where they slashed the wage bill

Strachan got Southampton up to 8th, in a period where they inversed wage spending

Man city will do better this year than last, because they are spending more on players wages

Only Man U and Chelsea have won the league in the last 5 years, because they are the top 2 wage spenders

Etc

Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 20:33
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Oh well, if it's real research by real professors, who am I to challenge it?

So you want me to repeat what I have said on other threads ad infinitum without any real response.

There really is no need for your arrogant condescension. If we're talking about being a big enough man, when will you be man enough just to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this particular point? I really don't understand why it causes you such a problem to the extent that any thread on which the manager is discussed you wade in with yet another sarcastic, condescending and downright arrogant reply?

I have only ever made four key points in response to you:

1. Of course finance is the most important factor in a club's success. It stands to reason and I have never, ever disputed that. You spend more money, you achieve more. It's a relatively simple equation that doesn't require real research.

2. It stands to reason that the more money a club has, the more money they spend on wages, the better manager they can afford. On that basis I find it very difficult to see how any amount of research can divorce a club's wage spend from the amount they spend on a manager.

3. A manager's role is much more than just the results he achieves. That is not the only barometer of a manager's success or failure and without a manager, that you deem irrelevant, a club would be a rudderless ship.

4. The less money a club has, the more important a manager becomes. Moyes and Allardyce are excellent examples of that.

On that basis I do not consider a manager's role to be irrelevant. You do. I can live with that but I really would appreciate a modicum of respect.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 24/11/2009 20:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue


"Keep on lads, but the those with wise old heads will be proved right."

[B)]

Southgate waiting for Fergie to retire for the Man Utd job is he?

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 20:48
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Well, rightly or wrongly, his stock will be rising as long as Strachan fails to get the same results from the squad that he did.

A point of order for Adi...I am not seeking to judge Strachan as a manager after 3 games, but I am at liberty to judge the results of the team under his stewardship, I think.

Peachy Posted on 24/11/2009 20:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Like I said BEFORE Strachen had even arrived at the club it is a puzzling appointment which I say was forced on Gibson by the fans.

It was always bound to scupper any sense of continuity and understanding that had built up at the club.

However he is here now and that means giving him 3 years. Unfortunately I am concerened that Strachen will struggle in this job and it will be his last before he retires with a few million pounds out of the clubs coffers.

Part of the 'deal' with handing strachen a squad 1 point off the top of the league was that we required promotion - Gibson was quite clear about that, Strachen was appointed to get us promotion. Mark my words he is out of touch with the players and has caused considerable alienation already and that is the reason we have looked a shell of a team these last few weeks.

Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 20:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm not sure what the difference between the two is. The results have been poor. I don't believe you can draw any conclusions from that as to whether Strachan will be a success or not.

Old_Gregg Posted on 24/11/2009 20:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

The difference is simply that under Southgate we averaged 2 points a game. Under Strachan we haven't even managed half a point a game. And this after bringing his improvements into the squad.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 21:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

'Where are Swansea in the table?'

They've had a good run of late. Where wer ethey when we played them? Where were Bristol City, Leicester, Watford?

What did you boys think of Steve McLaren? Would you have sacked him after 3 games? After 4 games we'd played 4, no points, scored one and conceded eleven, eight of those at home. We didn't look very good either.

Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 21:03
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

That proves that there is no difference. If you're judging the results then you're judging Strachan.

The bottom line is that the 2 points per game average and the 1 point away from the top were masking the very real and obvious problems that we had and that would ultimately have undermined us in any event.

Sitrep Posted on 24/11/2009 21:05
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Just a bunch of pishy ar sed bedwetters

Peachy Posted on 24/11/2009 21:06
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

There is a difference adi and it's the way we used to be able to utilise pace under southgate. What we all needed was strachen to come in and fine tune in order to keep us in touch then bring in some new people in January.

Instead he has dismissed everything and tried to start from scratch - he obviously realises now that he has a big job on his hands in the meantime we have blown promotion and we all know that if we don't get up this year we are in serious long term trouble. I've seen it happen to many times in all walks of life - a football club is an insular place - we've basically got a mini damned utd going on.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 24/11/2009 21:06
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

'Not quite same players borolad259 - Strachan has actually strengthened the squad and yet the results and performances have got worse. Like or hate Southgate, that is a fact. '

Old_Gregg, Bent hasn't strengthened the squad, he's a carthorse, Osbourne is no better than we already have treading water in midfield, Kitson would be a good signing if he were on a longer term, but by the time he's matchfit he'll be waving bye bye.

I want a good old clear out in Jan, Folan to be sent packing as soon as we can aswell.


Old_Gregg Posted on 24/11/2009 21:16
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Strachan saw these players as improvements. Get used to it!

HolgateCorner Posted on 24/11/2009 21:16
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

When we win on Saturday, his record will be a point a game.

Will that look any better against Southgates 3.25 year record?

I'm glad he's shaken it all up - it wanted shaking up, promotion this year or no promotion.

We could not go on the way we were, it was despearte.

I would rather Strachan fails in the long run than we didn't try to change it when things clearly weren't right.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 21:26
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

'Strachan saw these players as improvements. Get used to it!'

They're short term signings. We had two players left to play up front. Aliadiere ([:o)]) is out through injury, we were down to the bare bones as far as forwards are concerned. Same applied to the centre of the park.

Mclaren's first signings were Greening and Wilson. Is that the way he went forward?

Give your thick heads a shake.


borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 21:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I hope we do win on Saturday.

Adi (and not just you to be fair) there is a notion that under Southgate we would have done no better than Strachan. Actually, the last 3 games yielded the regulation 6 points, and he finally managed a home win.
To take that evidence and assert that we would have gone downhill from there is just fantasy. I could just as easily say that Southgate had turned the corner and that we were heading for automatic promotion and an FA Cup Final victory.
You usually deal in facts, or at least try to. The fact is that we were doing a lot better than we are now, and it will take a run of victories now to get us back to where we were.

Peachy Posted on 24/11/2009 21:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

we've had the shake up - it's been a disaster and we are looking a shadow of the team that played at swansea and sheff wed.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 24/11/2009 21:30
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

So did you.

They are not better than what we already have (except when Kitson gets fit).

I'm prepared to give Strachan a chance but I have yet to see anything on or off the pitch improve since he took over. I know it's only 3 games but he's also had plenty of time on the training pitch during international breaks to at least shape the team.

Peachy Posted on 24/11/2009 21:35
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

With the obvious limitations we had at least we had worked out a set pattern of play away from home which utilised the pace of johnson and aliadiere - we looked a team with a plan which we believed in. I honestly think we would have stayed in touch under southgate.

24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 21:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

ITS TOO EARLY TO SAY IF SG IS DOING A GOOD JOB OR A BAD JOB. HES HAD 3 GAMES FOR FFS.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 21:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Hang on a minute. Didn't that pace carve out two very good chances against Palace away? Two sitters that we missed, one being a 4 onto 1 situation.

He's been in charge for one away game, one where the break away tactic (that you clowns repeat time after time) worked. It didn't work this time, live with it.

If you think going away from home and sitting back is going to get us promotion then think again. We haven't got the defence for it.

boksic Posted on 24/11/2009 21:54
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi I accept no one or few on here agree with me.

1. It is not about money per se. It is possible to massively overspend on transfer fees on players who are not much cop. Average dutch and brazillians tend to be very overpriced for example.
2. The problem is managers salaries don't correlate to any element of success and the top managers in England say are all paid about the same but only one of them wins the league each year.

3. The modern idea of the manager was pretty much invented by Matt Busby in the fifties. Before that the board or chairman picked the team and signed players. The manager was a trainer who ran training sessions.

4. People always seem to love to refer to Moyes and Big Sam in this debate as examples of good managers. The problem is their teams finish the league in EXACTLY the position that wage spending predicts.

As I keep saying the idea that teams have similar resources and the ones with better managers get more points over the course of a season is demonstrably not the case.

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:06
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Briggsy, shouting will get you nowhere young man. It certainly doesn't enhance your arguement.
The bare facts are that in terms of league position, points away from leaders, points per game and goals per game, we are in a worse position now than we were before.

Some of us were saying that sacking Southgate at that point when we were picking up 2 points per game, and right up there in the thick of things was a mistake....if nothing else, because it would be a standard that Strachan might struggle to maintain, thus inviting criticism.

We aren't necessarily saying that Strachan is crap.

erimus74 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:10
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Can't believe we are still having this debate after the worst manager this club has known

1st & 2nd season in charge we still had the nucleus of McLarens team, 3rd season was southgates, and his famous quote ' judge me on my team'

Well Gareth your team took us down without a whimper, creating poor records after another, spineless, gutless performances, no leadership, shipping goals to lose games in the final 10 minutes in the whole term of his management.

His buys were poor, tactics were poor till in the end his substitions were all over the place.

Gareth as a player was, and still is, a gentlemen and a legend, as a manager, the worst.

We are in this league for one reason, Gareth Southgate, give it a rest bed wetters at least till the end of the season.

Didn't notice all you lot coming on here calling for Southagte during our poor attempt to try and stay in the PL.

We could of went to wembley but lost at home to Cardiff, wigan, fulham, bburn,sunlun, pompey any of these games resulting in a win could of seen us push for safety, 2 goals and no wins.

This season WBA stood between us and top spot, a thrashing home defeat, and another unwanted record, Leicester home another game to go back to 2nd and guess what, we lost to a team who hadn't won away,Coventry 2 up with 14 mins to go, result 2-2, too many reasons for him to go than stay.

This club has gone back 10 years with him in charge

Senor_Chester Posted on 24/11/2009 22:12
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Why aren't we in the top 3 in this league then Boksic [rle]

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Erimus, we had a XXXXXX season and were relegated. It happens in football. If GS was to be replaced, the summer was the time to do it.
Hold on tight though Erimus, because things just might get even worse. Let's hope not eh?

24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 22:24
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Well said erimus74. 1 point from top was just a smoke screen. I cant understand the support for Southgate now he's gone, maybe people want to moan for moanings sake.

Hypothetically speaking we kept Southgate and he got us up. Then next year we fail to make any impact at all, these same peole backing him now will have been on here demanding his sacking. Why delay the inevitable? Southgate was on borrowed time, he lost the majority of the fans many months ago. When you lose the fans its lights out! Simple

24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 22:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We had a terrible season under Southgate, 1 win in 18 premiership games, baffling tactics and unable to motivate his players in vital games equals relegation. So we now find ourselves in the championship and you dont sack that manager because it might just get worse? Has to be some of the worst tripe I've ever heard. You got yourself a one way ticket to being a yo-yo club. Glad your pleased mind tho.

erimus74 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:40
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

borolad259, these things do happen in football, FHS, last season was my 6th relegation as a Boro supporter.

And I agree with you sacking southgate then was strange, but he had to go, the man had proved over and over again when the 'big games' came along he and his team failed big style, and the end for him as manager was against WBA.

Southagate should of waliked last january.

This season he may of took us to the play offs at best, play offs only because everytime we would be within touching distance of the teams above we would lose, resulting in playing a play off semi or even the final and losing the game without a fight,because like him or not Southgates teams were made of that

Peachy Posted on 24/11/2009 22:45
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I genuinely hope I'm wrong about strachen - I agree 3 games is ridiculosly early to judge him. However, it will be interesting to see what the likes of briggsy and korky will be saying come April.[xx(]

borolad259 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Supposition.
We move on, but if WGS doesn't turn things around very quickly, then you won't be surprised when he gets compared unfavourably to GS1.

24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 22:48
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I will gladly be on here come April and give my opinions. Just like I did with Robbo, McClaren and Southgate.

But 3 games? FFS. We're talking about highly skilled professional here.

I especially remember backing McClaren early on in his managerial reign when many had given up on him. He went on to become the most succesful manager in the clubs history if memory serves me right. What would have been if those got what they were demanding?

erimus74 Posted on 24/11/2009 22:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Peachy we all have opinions that is what makes football the game it is, but there are posters on here who are going overboard, about both soutgate and strachan.

FHS we kept southgate employed for at least 6 months more than we should of and people are saying he was badly done to, then there are people bed wetting over strachan, get a grip.

BTW was it you who I mentioned to about my Boro goals, AP & the RS DVD?

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 24/11/2009 22:51
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I think people misunderstand the "Southgate lovers" argument. It's not about whether he deserved to get sacked, it's when, why and under what pretense.

Trotting out cliches about needing 3 years to clear out the dross & make the team his own are all well and good (and to a degree true) but Strachan was brought in under the clear rationale that we needed an immediate return to the Premiership. And many on here were happy to talk up our squad and proclaim that all we needed was a bit of leadership and they'd be fine. All that seems to have changed now.

We may still go up this season but - considering the widely held views about a new manager needing time - do we realistically have a better chance this season than we did under Southgate? I think not. In the long run it may or may not be a positive move but on the reasoning of "instant success" it was surely an illogical decision from Gibson.


24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 23:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Totally agree the timing of the decision by Gibbo was a strange one to say the least. But what I cant fathom how anyone can write a manager with experience in the game after just 3 games?? I called the Southgate sacking last Jan. If that happened who'd say what position we would be now in? Gibbo wasnt ruthless enough. Gibbo dropped a bollock!

Lay off Strachan, give him time


Link: Southgate out

HolgateCorner Posted on 24/11/2009 23:01
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

long way to go yet and, statistically, any team putting a decent run together in the second half of this season will get automatic promotion.

Boksic - management is a housekeeping thing. A good manager will not buck the transfer and wages market (unless they are brian clough reincarnate) but he will ensure a team reaches its commensurate level. A bad manager won't.

Strachan can only be compared to Southgate after he's had 3.25 years in charge.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 07:14
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 21:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue
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ITS TOO EARLY TO SAY IF SG IS DOING A GOOD JOB OR A BAD JOB. HES HAD 3 GAMES FOR FFS.


SG?

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 07:54
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

HC - as I keep saying the wage curve predicts league position with about 92% accuracy so the effect of everything else, including luck, injuries, bad refereeing and the influence of a manager or coach is relatively small.

Secondly it is difficult to compare like with like as you can't give the same squad to 2 different managers at the same time to test your theory.

However you can look at what happens under successive managers with the same resources where say no increase in spending occurs in the short term.

Avram Grants win percentage at Chelsea over a whole season was a fraction of a percent better than Jose's entire rein. The point is it was the same squad.

At Villa you can compare a run of games under O'leary then the next under O'Neill. The latter appears to be a "better" manager and that correlates to about 4 points over the season. Wow.

AyresomeJoy Posted on 25/11/2009 08:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Boksic - what a boring barsteward you must be to spend time with.
Southgate picked Matthew bates for centre midfield and gave him a new 3 yr contract, calling it a key signing for Boro.
That sums up Southgates reign basically. Inept.

borolad259 Posted on 25/11/2009 09:18
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

AyresomeJoy, you don't exactly sound like a barrel of laughs yourself. You, along with |Happy, take the title of FMTTM's most ironically named poster.

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 09:55
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

AJ - the problem is indiviual decisions like giving a player a new contract or playing them as you percieve "out of position" have no measurable effect on team performance i.e. how many points the team accrues over the course of the season.

Fans seem to think these things really matter yet at the same time will gladly rage about Southgate "taking us backwards for 3 years" taking no account of the fact that Southgate was given a remit to slash the wage bill, and guess what? Teams that spend less on players wages relative to the rest of the teams in the division accrue less points over the course of a season.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 25/11/2009 10:19
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Southgate was getting loads of abuse because Bates contract had run down and he hadn't signed.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 10:28
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

On the contrary boksic, I think that many people do agree with you. In fact, if you read my post I actually do agree with you that money is the most important factor, it would be foolish not to. What I completely and utterly disagree with is the notion that a manager is irrelevant because I don't believe that to be the case.

I don't believe that you have adequately dealt with the points I made either.

The 'wage tables' if I can call them that that I have show that Allardyce and Moyes consistently over achieved, well above their wage spend. Maybe I have the wrong study so if you could point me in the right direction I wouldn't mind reading the study you continue to refer to.

Finally, you talk about the 4 point difference between DOL and MON as if it's nothing. 4 points is huge. An absolutely massive difference. It would have won Liverpool the title last year. It would have kept us up. Fine margins like that can be influenced by a manager and so even the smallest of percentage points worth of improvement a manager can bring is vital. That's why I said that the less money you have the more important your manager becomes.

As I say, we just disagree. Nothing wrong with that but I took exception to the way your post came across. I apologise if I over-reacted.

AyresomeJoy Posted on 25/11/2009 10:37
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Boksic - What Adi says above, i agree with. Its not that wage spend isnt important, it is. Its the notion that you dismiss a managers importance & impact he can have on the teams results. As Adi said, 4 pts is massive in the scheme of things.
You can never, ever, quantify that in your finely tuned tables because its down to personality and motivation of a manager to drain more out of a player than another manager wouldnt be able to get from that said player.
You can put up stats all day long if your want, but what Adi said is true.
And you cant answer it.

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 11:13
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

And you can't answer this -

Give me one concrete example of exactly how a manager "drains more out of a player" or a technique that is used and how exactly it works.



The reality is some players are better than others and the teams with better players get more points than those with worse players over the course of a season.

AyresomeJoy Posted on 25/11/2009 12:04
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Boksic - Adi - asked you all the questions above - answer those and then i wont need to repeat myself.

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 12:47
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

As an example:

Premier League Wage Speding season 2005/6

Chelsea £114,002,000
Manchester United £85,389,000
Arsenal £82,965,000
Liverpool £68,868,000
Newcastle United £52,183,000
Tottenham £40,656,000
Aston Villa £38,255,000
Everton £36,966,000
Manchester City £34,341,000
Charlton £34,222,000
Blackburn £33,373,000
West Ham £31,228,000
Fulham £30,102,000
Bolton £28,533,000
Birmingham £26,797,000
Portsmouth £24,802,000
Wigan £20,562,000
West Brom £20,361,000
Sunderland £17,353,000

(Middlesbrough refused to supply)

Premier League Final Table 2005 6

1 Chelsea
2 Manchester United
3 Liverpool
4 Arsenal
5 Tottenham Hotspur
6 Blackburn Rovers
7 Newcastle United
8 Bolton Wanderers
9 West Ham United
10 Wigan Athletic
11 Everton
12 Fulham
13 Charlton Athletic
14 Middlesbrough
15 Manchester City
16 Aston Villa
17 Portsmouth
18 Birmingham City
19 West Bromwich Albion
20 Sunderland


Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 25/11/2009 12:52
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

AyresomeJoy

Are you suggesting we pay wages we ain't got?

Capybara Posted on 25/11/2009 13:04
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm not going to get into the boksic argument, other to say I find it hilarious the way he gets such a reaction every time he brings us this. But looking further up the thread I do find it interesting how people's expectations of the season have changed since Strachan's appointment. I'm no Southgate apologist - my views coincide most closely with those set out by borolad259 more eloquently than I am able a few days ago - but when he was in charge the view was that, even so, we ought to be there or thereabouts. Now that Strachan is in charge - and the change was made because 'promotion is the aim' - the view seems to be that he needs time and promotion this season is unlikely. Odd.

Big_Shot Posted on 25/11/2009 13:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We've also not heard much about that new manager 'boost' that was constantly mentioned throughout last season.

Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 25/11/2009 13:22
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

You're not suggesting some conveniently forget things they've previously said are you?

sasboro1 Posted on 25/11/2009 13:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

if wages determines league position then why are we below teams like blackpool and bristol city?

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 13:52
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

My expectations haven't changed. I thought we'd finish in the play offs before the season started. I still think we will now. My view might change if Strachan does some good business in the transfer window but you can't polish a turd.

A manager's success or failure is determined largely by how they invest the club's money. I have much more faith in Strachan's ability in that respect than I did Southgate's.

boksic - that table doesn't really back you up that well in my view. There are teams in there that had what I consider to be good managers that over achieved as a result, and teams that had what I consider to be poor managers didn't perform as you would expect them to given the wage spend.

I also think it backs me up on the point that a good manager becomes more important the less you spend.

24_Briggsy Posted on 25/11/2009 16:22
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I obviously meant Gordon Strachan

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 18:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

AJ

I recall some on here slating Southgate and the club when they thought Bates was going to walk away for free.

Short memories some have.

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 18:18
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Except that the top spender won the league, 2nd top spenders finished 2nd, 3 of the bottom 4 spenders were relegated, the bottom spenders finishing rock bottom and the mud table teams below the top 4 all finished pretty much where predicted with 2 exceptions.

That difference could be down to luck, injuries or bad refereeing decisions just as much as it could be down to the identity of the coach or manager.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 18:22
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

bksic

If you look at the injuries we've had it might apply to us.

Either that or we just buy people that will never be fit for any long period.

boksic Posted on 25/11/2009 18:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

If football had a salary cap like the NFL or rugby league then you might be able to see who the better coaches are but until then, no chance.

Those of you that don't see that last seasons performance was down to cutting the wage bill too far simply do not understand what matters in professional football.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 19:45
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

There you go again boksic. It just exudes arrogance and is extremely irritating. It's pointless discussing anything with someone that has an attitude like that.

You still haven't managed to answer any of the questions adequately and I don't agree with that statement.

Senor_Chester Posted on 25/11/2009 19:47
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Boksic everyone is agreeing with you to an extent, but your stubborness to accept what role a manager plays is making you look stupid and sound bloody annoying.

Senor_Chester Posted on 25/11/2009 19:49
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

And if you want an answer Boksic than how about Wigan from the leaugue and spend tables you put up?

And why aren't we in the top 3 of the league now?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 25/11/2009 19:57
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Wigan seem to be the exception that proves the rule.

And goes some way to proving what a good job Bruce did there on limited money.

Citing our current position as evidence to disprove this is a very premature as well, given the amount of games left this season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 20:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Aston Villa - spent the 7th highest amount and yet finished in 16th. A summer later MON was appointed.

Wigan in 10th spot and spent the third least in the division. Something Paul Jewell has form for - getting the best out of limited players.

Bolton 14th highest spenders but finished 8th. Sam Allardyce.

Blackburn 11th in wages and yet finished 6th. Mark Hughes - good manager.

A good manager can make a difference. These same managers do it conistently. It isn't luck, coincidence or anything else.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 20:25
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Strange, in all the so called good managers named that can do a lot with limited resources I don't see one called Gordon Strachan

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 25/11/2009 20:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Wan't he winning a league title in the SPL that season?

borolad259 Posted on 25/11/2009 20:32
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Hardly bucking the wages to success ratio trend there though.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 20:35
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Johnny I guess even you might manage to win a trophy up there.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the banks pull the plug on the Old Firm

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 20:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Well, Mowbray's found it easy after all.

Yet another ridiculous way to criticise a manager 3 games into his tenure.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 20:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Mowbray has probably found it as he's having to sort out the mess he inherited

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 20:47
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Yes and Strachan was on the grassy knoll.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 25/11/2009 20:52
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

He's taking us down the league, not up.

Brings in a player who doesn't want to be here to replace another he'd brought in.

Genius, pure genius

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 25/11/2009 21:03
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Strachan won 3 out of 4 SPL titles, progressed further in the CL than any other manager and did it in line with a mandate to cut the wage bill and lower the age of the squad.

I'm not saying he will be a success here, just stating the facts.

erimus74 Posted on 25/11/2009 21:09
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

MKredleaderOne-Mowbray has probably found it as he's having to sort out the mess he inherited

MK I can't believe you have stated that, what a load of rubbish, shouldn't that read 'strachan has probably found it as he's having to sort out the mess he inherited[^]

southgate brought in Mido, and he wanted to be here?

24_Briggsy Posted on 25/11/2009 21:42
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Some people on this board are bloody clueless, I think we all know who they are.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 06:19
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

erimus, yes he brought Mido in, I recall Southgate getting slated for not playing him.

He also got shot of him when he caused too many problems.

Short and selective memories.

Oh, and clueless

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 07:50
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Well, yes I agree if you're admitting to being clueless.

You accuse Strachan of getting players in that don't want to be here yet fail to acknowledge that he has no other choice but to get short term loans in because we're outside the transfer window. The outlay by the club is minimal and the huge gaps left in the squad by Southgate were there for all to see, except the man himself.

You then make yourself look even dafter in the way you describe the Mido deal. He spent £6m of the club's money and thousands of pounds worth of wages on a guy that could barely be arsed to get himself fit, caused division within the squad, had an attitude problem and who eventually was shipped out to Egypt for £2.50. The fella has had more clubs than Tiger Woods. You want to give Southgate credit for having shipped him out at a huge loss when he showed what everyone knew he was???

Clueless is bang on the money.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 26/11/2009 07:58
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

There were an awful lot on here happy with the Mido signing. He was signed because he was the only man available at such short notice.

It's similar to the Alves signing, there weren't many complaints if any at the time, he looked like he would score goals in his first 5 months here. Then it turned sour due to a few reasons. People started to moan what a waste of money etc.

I think fans need to get real, Southgate took us down, wasn't doing too badly in his attempt to take us back up, Strachan brought in to keep if not impove our promotion credentials, start going backwards.

Hopefully it's a blip, hopefully Strachan will turn out great. I don't rate his past acheivements but will give him time to turn it around. I've seen nothing to suggest he will, be it with tactics or signings so far.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 07:58
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi, if Southgate took a weak squad with holes all over the place, and made it a side with 2/3 pts accumulation record, then he is some kinf of genius/alchemist.

You usually at least have a rational viewpoint. And calling people clueless is hardly indicative of your respect of other posters....the respect which not so long ago you were demanding of others.

You are, at best, inconsistent at the moment.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:17
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

this should be a great post to bring back in three months time[^]

all those user names changing[;)]

pity the thick skinned ones will try to change the wat their opinions are represented.[:(!]

bit like churchill with the soviet union[cr]

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:18
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

in three months time the "I'm not going back . . even though I don't go . . until Strachan goes" threads will send this one to obscurity

AlBoro1984 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Compare Southgate's record before and after the sale of Tuncay + Huth.

There you will find your answer. By the time we appointed Strachan we were starting to slip, sure we were 1 point off top but Geordies and WBA were in an awful run of form and we were still only 2 points off the bottom half.

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm glad you're so happy with rubbish football and rubbish results because there'll be a whole season of it before we get related and Strachan goes . . at least we got generally great football and generally great results before the switch to Bent / Kitson / Osborne . . it was nice outplaying most teams for most of the games for the first time since (I can't remember when in 35 years watching the Boro)

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:33
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

We had a 3 game slump between Wes and Reading, but then got back to winning (including at home) and scoring (including at home). Losing to Watford was no disgrace really, neither was losing to WBA or Leicester. It happens in this league.
The fact is, and it's a fact, the worst run of form we have had this season is the one we've been on since Southgate was sacked.

Re. Tunc and Huth. I think any manager would have had a spot of difficulty adjusting the team to life without them, particularly Huth. In retrospect, he did OK...and it looks as though St Ledger was a good spot (at least WGS thinks so).

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 08:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

borolad259, nothinginconsistent at all. In fact I am the model of consistency. I was posting exactly the same thing when Southgate was in charge. I felt our performances were flattered by our position in the table, as did Gibson. There were huge gaps and holes in the squad, they were obvious. Southgate got asway with those problems against weaker teams but anyone in the top half of the table exposed the squad for what it was. That shows how poor a division it is.

That is a very rational viewpoint. Southgate took us down through mismanagement and by the time of his sacking had lost most of the fans (always a sign it's time to go) and the wheels, to me, looked like they were going to fall off. We were 1 point off top but 2 points off 10th and if we're all honest we were playing pretty poorly and had had more than just a couple of really poor results.

I felt it was time for him to go and I strongly feel that his replacement ought to be given more than 3 games before being written off. If there is anything less than complete consistency and rationality to that then you've got me.

The clueless comment was reflecting MKredleaderOne's insult back at him. Again, I see nothing wrong with that.

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 08:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I cant quite fathom why some people were happy with Southgate staying on. This is a manager who managed 1 win in 18 premiership games, we were relegated without a whimper!!

The timing suprised me somewhat, but im by no means surprised by the decision. For me Steve Gibson has regained some respect on my part. The decision in my opinion was long overdue, it should have been made last Janurary when relegation looked inevitable after we got smashed by then bottom of the league West Brom.

Wether it was now or at the end of the season it was just delaying the untenable. He had lost the supporters and when that happens especially at a club like this his position became untenable.

As an outsider looking at the deicsion many will find the decision a little odd but I think the majority of Teesside welcome the decision. Southgate could not take the club forward.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 08:49
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I would suggest that if you are going to post indignantly about affording people respect, that you should do like-wise, if you are to maintain consistency. If you are going to respond in kind when others denigrate you, fine, but perhaps cut out the "show me respect" stuff, that's all.

On footballing matters, you may have been able to see that the team is in a mess, and with some sort of future-gazing power, been able to see us slumping after the Derby game. Firstly, that is some talent given that we had just won 2 out of three, and got back to our decent season long average. Secondly, yes we were 2 points off 10th. We are now below tenth, having sacked the manager.
With your super powers, you may be able to tell me that we would have only collected 2 points from 12 under Southgate as well, despite his record to that point of 8 from 12 over the season so far.
If so, it's a gift I'd like to have. You must make a fortune with the bookmakers.


buttermyarse Posted on 26/11/2009 08:51
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Some people who post on here really dont have a clue......[rle]

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 09:06
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

The reality is we have a chairman struggling to get in the top half of the Championship rich list so we have been 'punching above our weight', even in the Championship. The goings-on over the Alves transfer can not be blamed on the manager (what chairman would allow a manager to invest £12m in a player he hadn't seen and didn't appear to want) and this funding could have seen us punching even more above our weight.

And now, with a manager appearing to get the best out of a young, experienced squad, outplayimg most of the sides we've played till three games ago where we have more than doubled 'the outplayed' number, we change to a manager wih no track record, no understanding of the players and some clueless tactics and subsitutions and comments as to what is going wrong . . . .


24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 09:12
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

There appears to be some unwritten rule if we kept Southgate promotion would have been a certanty. OPEN YOUR EYES, we had just been relegated from the premiership without a whimper, 1 win in 18 games! Ok hyptothetically speaking we did go up, what gives you hope that we would be any better than we were last season?? With a much weaker squad let it be said. Southgate simply wasnt good enough, he didnt progress this club in his tenure here. If this is acceptable for some then accepting mediocrity if what you were supporting.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 09:16
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Briggsy, we could all see the team falling apart last year. It was an appalling season. The biggest mistakes were Alves and Mido: our entire striker budget for 2 years squandered on a player who could score in Holland, but not here, and a talent with an attitude problem. Other areas (CM, Full back) were problematic, but not disastrously. The biggest problem was that our big expensive strikers didn't deliver. Just a 20% better scoring rate, and we'd have stayed up...struggling, but surviving long enough to sell and re-invest.

I can understand why many would have wanted GS out then. Personally, I remember Robbo taking us straight back up after a disasterous relegation. I hoped that GS would be given the chance to do like-wise.
This season, as is plain from the results and stats, he was doing ok....lots of room for improvement, but a 64% win rate over 13 games isn't bad at all. That is why I was, and still am, dubious about the decision to replace him then.

I will be consistent. If, and when Strachan is getting the same return per game this season, and we are back in the hunt, I will be a happy man.

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 09:19
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't see any inconsistency whatsoever. I do appreciate respectful debate in which no insults are thrown. If you read the post you will see that it was a tongue in cheek reflection of the comment made, which you are now taking far too seriously.

Your being very silly too on the footballing debate and are actually undermining your own argument with this super power nonsense.

We are suffering short term pain at the moment but I believe it to be for long term gain. I felt and still feel that Southgate was taking us backwards. I don't think there is much evidence that can prove that incorrect.

By the way - I predicted play offs at the start of the season and I'm still predicting that now. I don't believe a new manager will change that but I do believe the change of manager was for the long term benefit of the club. I might ultimately be proven wrong but to draw conclusions after 3 games is ridiculous, judging Southgate on 3 and a half years though is a bit different.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 09:26
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Well at least you are consistent with being beyond reproach.

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 09:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Southgate wasn't a great manager; your comments about strikers sums it up; but, after the Liverpool, West Ham games we had the makings of a side to stay up - with the much-maligned Arca in the middle - even the Spurs result was an aberration as we made enough chances to win the game in spite of a poor defense not leaving too much space for Spurs to chip the ball into and some dreadful individual errors. Then, for the crucial Stoke game, he dropped Arca and brought in Shawky who lost his marker for their goal and had a terrible game. That was the day we lost it and if Southgate had been sacked in the summer, it would have been the right decision.

But he wasn't and was faring (embarrassingly) well with the young, mobile players that seemed to be needed to do well in this league (I'd always thought old pros was what this league was about but it isn't) . . . . so Southgate was doing the job - even WBA and NCL were showing how it was possible to have poor games . . and we brought in a manager who was bound to take too long to get the team how he wants it to be.

If we got promoted we would struggle whover the manager is as we haven't got the chairman to compete in the Premiership . . . but at least we'd have a potentially saleable club in the Premiership as that's the way the games gone

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 09:33
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

It's nothing to do with being beyond reproach. It's about you taking something that wasn't really serious and making a big deal out of it. Someone called me clueless and I threw it back at them. Where's the big deal?

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 10:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

By the way Adi, I am not drawing conclusions after 3 games, other than the obvious one that we're not doing very well.
I took this stance before Southgate was sacked, and particularly when Southgate was sacked. I could see that it was a risky strategy if the objective was immediate promotion....which I presume it still is. No-one said anything about rebuilding an entire team, and taking a long time to do it.
I am looking at a bigpicture too....going back over a decade. We had a long period as a club where we were investing in the team, and spending money when money was more freely available.
When Gibson appointed Southgate, he did so in the full knowledge that he had no coaching badges, and no coaching experience. He said that he was banking on his intelligence and willingness to learn. He also said that he was looking in the long term....5 years was mentioned at the time. He knew full well that it is rare for a manager to learn his trade so quickly.
Investing in the hotel and golf course has consumed resources. Credit is not so readily available, and it has been plain that Southgate has been operating with dwindling resources, relative to other teams that were around us (Sunderland, Man City, Villa, Spurs etc).
Steve Gibson was clearly unable to compete financially with the new breed of owner, and he knows/knew it. The strategy of investing in a younger team, on lower wages was developed. Gareth knew this too... and bought into the idea of young, mobile, hungry players.
Unfortunately, Jones/Turnbull weren't as good a Schwarzer....they didn't have his experience. Cattermole was good, but brought some of the folly of youth to the party....and so it went on. Matty Bates in midfield. Grounds at left back. Wheater at CB.
We invested what we had in expensive strikers. Both were disasterous signings. Personally, they are the single reason why the strategy failed. The younger players didn't have the wherewithal to cope with the additional pressures that come with playing in a team that can't score. If you can't score, you can't afford to concede, and so have to play more defensively...especially if you get lucky and go one up.
It became apparent in Southgate's second season that our investment in the team, relative to others was in decline....a decline which accelerated when the global recession bit, and money became difficult to access for all businesses.
Perhaps, the holding company needed to call in some of the BoroFC associated debt, because it was finding other avenues limited. Perhaps, Gibson and Lamb were shrewd enough to realise that we had to operate with much lower debt levels anyway. The Hotel and Golf Course needed finishing.

Early last season Southgate made it plain, as did Keith Lamb (once season tickets were dealt with) that there would be negligible new investment in the team. We might have got lucky, but we didn't.

Steve Gibson is honourable enough to concede that Southgate was operating with severe restrictions, and that the appalling season was not entirely of his making. He was too inexperienced to deal with the circumstances, and wasn't helped by the disgraceful attitude of some of the players.

This season, the restrictions remained, but even after selling Huth and Tuncay, there was still the possibility of faring well in this league. Southgate was actually doing as well as could have been expected really. He had us in the hunt, and despite some poor Home form, was picking up enough Away points to keep us up there.

That is how I view it. Nothing to do with judging Strachan on 3 games, more seeing a much larger picture. I can't see the future, unlike some, but I can take a personal view of the past.

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 10:38
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I thought that was an excellent post until the last sentence. Not one that I agreed with necessarily but a good post nonetheless. You were let down, once again, by your reference to seeing the future, which I assume was a continuation of your earlier comment about my such ability?

I wasn't suggesting that you were drawing conclusions about Strachan after three games. Others have though.

You think we should have stuck with Southgate, I don't. That's the fundamental point upon which we disagree. I don't think that changing the manager will affect too much one way or the other in terms of our chances this season. I thought we'd finish in the play offs before we kicked a ball and I still do now, though January may change my view.

You're making a lot of assumptions about finance that don't really stand up to close scrutiny. I think it's obvious that our spending was reduced. I don't believe it was anywhere near to the extent that some like to believe and I certainly don't believe it was the root cause of our relegation.

For me, two key decisions sent us down and they were both made by Southgate. The first is, as you say, the signings of Mido and Alves. £20m of a limited budget invested in one area of the pitch and they failed to deliver. I can't criticise Southgate for signing Alves. I think most were happy at the time with his signing and most thought he would do well. I still believe that there was a good player in there somewhere. The problem I have with his signing is the cost. if financial restrictions were in place Southgate knew about them and therefore shouldn't have dropped that amount of money on one player and certainly shouldn't have followed up with the signings of Emnes. a project and Digard, a crock. That leads me on to the second major decision that was our undoing, the midfield.

The first mistake was letting Boateng, Rocky and Cattermole leave all at once and it was made worse by the replacements he brought in. Digard had an injury record like Anderton's and Emnes was an expensive project. Spend that £8m better in the midfield and I suspect the difference would have been made.

The goalkeeping situation was an aside and probably was a mistake but wasn't that costly.

For me, a manager's success or failure is largely determined by the players he signs. Southgate's record in that department is terrible. An abject failure that showed no signs of abating this season.

That's the way I see it and why removing Southgate, althought a little late, was the only decision to be made.

Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 26/11/2009 12:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I hope I'm proved wrong but can't see it.

At the end of the day I support BORO and not the manager by himself.

The problem I see is we've dropped 9 points under Strachan and he seems to be saying he doesn't know what's wrong apart from we're not scoring goals.

Now under Southgate we'd won games.

To win I do be believe you need to score at least one goal, am I wrong in my thinking?

I'll be back tomorrow, lunch break over. Oh what it must be like to have a job where you're paid to be on here all day.

[;)]

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 13:12
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi, a position I respect, but don't agree with.
Where spending is concerned, the key word is "relative".
And regarding seeing the future, like you earlier, I was just joking.

Hercules Posted on 26/11/2009 13:58
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

There really is no need for your arrogant condescension. If we're talking about being a big enough man, when will you be man enough just to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this particular point? I really don't understand why it causes you such a problem to the extent that any thread on which the manager is discussed you wade in with yet another sarcastic, condescending and downright arrogant reply?

There you go again boksic. It just exudes arrogance and is extremely irritating. It's pointless discussing anything with someone that has an attitude like that.

You're a good turn boksic but you're on too long!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, if it's real research by real professors, who am I to challenge it?

Yes and Strachan was on the grassy knoll.

Well, yes I agree if you're admitting to being clueless.

Adi_Dem. Arrogant. Condescension. Sarcastic. Condescending. Downright arrogant. Arrogance. Extremely irritating. Pot. Kettle. Black.

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 14:18
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Look where we were when he came.
Look where we were when he left.

The rest is just nonsense.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 14:21
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

As is most of what you post Mappy you pompous, duplicitous oaf.

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 14:23
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Can't help it if you need to complicate matters son. It's only difficult for those who don't understand the game.

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 14:23
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Simple and to the point map. The truth has obviously hit someones raw nerve.

Get over it.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 14:25
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Clearly you weren't around Briggsy when Mappy was telling everyone who would listen that there was no way we'd be relegated, or when he welched on a foolish wager.

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 14:27
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

yup, guilty as charged, didn't think we'd go down last season.

Still I was a lot closer than most - including you - especially you.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 14:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

[:o)]

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 14:30
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Thats news to me.

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 14:54
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Absolute nonsense - we should have improved with poorer players because we couldn't afford transfer fees / wages, younger home grown, inexperienced players that wouldn't get into any other Premiership side?

Amazing that for two seasons Southgate kept us in the same position McClaren left us

The rest is just nonsense . . . .if you know anything about football

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 14:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Amazing that for two seasons Southgate kept us in the same position McClaren left us"

In Europe you mean?

bear66 Posted on 26/11/2009 15:02
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

McClaren lost our European position which took 8 years and lots and lots and lots of money to get

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 26/11/2009 15:07
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Dead right Bear, Gareth took over a team which was so good it wasn't even in the UEFA cup.


mickymacc Posted on 26/11/2009 15:13
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

McClaren didn't leave us in europe or in a strong position team wise,don't forget Southgate kept us in the premiership for two seasons.He also had to restructure the squad,if he had the money that Robbo and SMac had,we'd still be there.
Did you ever pay that bet?.[?]

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 15:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Hercules, I'll admit to the sarcasm but you're dead wrong about everything else. Just go back over the thread again. It must have taken you a while to copy each of the quotes from my posts but if you re-read it, you will see that there was no arrogance. All of those statements ought to be put into the context of the post that immediately preceded them. With skills like that you should work for the Sun!

McClaren left us in an excellent position, which is why so many top managers wanted the job. To argue that we had anything other than a good squad that needed just a bit of fine tuning is re-writing history in my opinion.

In fact Southgate lived off that squad for two seasons until he completed his overhaul. As soon as he did, we got relegated.

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 16:03
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi,that is bang on. I'd add that the more experience he gained the worse he became as a manager.

The "I've had to overhaul the entire team" excuse was no longer valid when his signings got us relegated.

If we'd have went down after his first season then fair enough, but after 3 years it was his team, his signings and his lack of any tactical awareness that was to blame.

Oh and he had as much money as Smac did, he just wasted the lot.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 16:14
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

He left us with an old squad.

Hercules Posted on 26/11/2009 16:25
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

mappy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Adi, those are just a few of what I'm sure is several thousand instances where you display unbelievebale arrogance, pomposity, sarcasm, condescension and a belief of superiority.

onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 16:31
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Hercules
"post hoc ergo propter hoc"

You are aware that you are agreeing with me?

Hercules Posted on 26/11/2009 16:32
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Just because it preceeded the event doesn't mean it caused it.

I put a '.' when I meant to put a '?'

footyteam Posted on 26/11/2009 16:45
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I can't believe people thought he left southgate a good squad,

Queudrue was going to leave no what,

Viduka knew he was in his last season.

Hasselbaink was on his last legs,

boateng had one season left in him.

schwarzer was in decline, probably bored of being here so long.

none of you liked rochemback,

our best centre back gone

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 16:56
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Yeah, but apart from that he left a team that was the envy of unemployed managers.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 26/11/2009 16:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I remember the queue outside Gibsons office door, every top manager was there begging for the post. The queue was bigger than the ZDS cup final ticket one.


MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 17:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 15:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue
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Hercules, I'll admit to the sarcasm but you're dead wrong about everything else. Just go back over the thread again. It must have taken you a while to copy each of the quotes from my posts but if you re-read it, you will see that there was no arrogance. All of those statements ought to be put into the context of the post that immediately preceded them. With skills like that you should work for the Sun!

McClaren left us in an excellent position, which is why so many top managers wanted the job. To argue that we had anything other than a good squad that needed just a bit of fine tuning is re-writing history in my opinion.

In fact Southgate lived off that squad for two seasons until he completed his overhaul. As soon as he did, we got relegated


Now I know you're trying to take the pi$$.

Southgate was given the job because no-one wanted it under Gibsons terms and he was prepared to give it a go. Given the time and money Robson was given he'd have taken us further SMc did.

He tried to give us what lots on here wanted, attacking football but that oftens leaves gaps at the back. SMc was often slaughtered for the football he gave us.

One day Gareth will be back and his team may give us a lesson or two.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 17:59
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I have to admit that I do think Southgate will still make a good manager; unfortunately for us we have suffered whilst he has cut his teeth and made mistakes.

People have written off his time here as a total disaster, which it wasn't.

Last season he cost us promotion, but a lot of very good managers have taken better teams than ours down.

In fact our current manager has far from an unblemished managerial record, hasn't he?

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 18:02
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Last season he cost us promotion"

????????

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 19:06
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm not saying there wasn't other factors in play, other than the manager, but ultimately he's accountable whichever way you look at it.

We had plenty of chances to pick up 3 points against our relegation rivals and we played such a defensive formation it was untrue.

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 19:56
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Am I missing something? 3 years of very average football ending in relegation last season, we went down without a whimper. Why the fcuk have people got their backs up about the Southgate sacking? It beggers belief, I just hope its a windup because I wouldnt be so worried about the sanity of some people.

I dont seem, to remember anyone kicking up a fuss when McClaren left and he acheieved so much more than Southgate had

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 20:01
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

SMAC had a fantastic run in the league in one season (qualifying for the UEFA cup on the last day of the season), the others were vey much business as usual i.e. flirting on the edge of a relegation battle.

His other three seasons were very much as Southgates first two.


borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 20:05
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Briggsy, you are missing plenty, but there you go.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 20:05
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Briggsy

Don't worry about us as we won't be worrying about you.

I don't remember SM getting sacked even though many on here wanted it to happen he went with the blessing of the chairman.

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 20:15
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm not painting Macs tenure here to be perfect Jonny, because it wasnt. But what he acheieved here was something worthy of credit. I think we would die for premiership football now, nevermind european football or a cup win.

Toyr right Mac wasnt sacked, but if England never came calling Gibbo's hand would have been forced, especially after the season ticket throwing incident

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 20:17
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Didn't he get a new contract after the season ticket incident?

Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 20:18
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

And as I've already pointed out Hercules, once they are put in context you are proven wrong. Quite why you have decided to make it seem like a personal issue with me is a matter for you. As far as I can tell, we just disagree about something. It's hardly something to get so upset about.

footyteam - I can't believe you don't think he left behind a good squad! I guess that's the beauty of football!

Viduka, Boateng, Schwarzer and Rocky (who I always rated by the way) were still in the squad weren't they? On that basis there were players that Southgate could rely upon and replace gradually over time. In fact, they were the backbone of a big part of his first two seasons. He then went on to spend, arguably, the best part of £25m replacing them.

What about the other players that formed a huge part of his future squads? The likes of Chris Riggott, Emanuel Pogatetz, Stewart Downing, Brad Jones, James Morrison, Matthew Bates, Ross Turnbull, Anthony McMahon, David Wheater, Andrew Taylor, Adam Johnson,
Lee Cattermole, Josh Walker - all bought or given huge Premiership experience by McClaren!

MKredleaderone - so because you disagree I must be taking the XXXXXX? OK then.

"Southgate was given the job because no-one wanted it under Gibsons terms and he was prepared to give it a go. Given the time and money Robson was given he'd have taken us further SMc did."

Pure conjecture. Given time? He had 3 years and got us relegated. Given money? He had the most expensively assembled strikeforce in our history and yet we scored less than any other team in the country.

"He tried to give us what lots on here wanted, attacking football but that oftens leaves gaps at the back. SMc was often slaughtered for the football he gave us."

I never slaughtered McClaren. I argued long and hard on here that we were witnessing our golden era and that we should enjoy it. It was easily my best time as a Boro fan. Southgate tried attacking football but ended up with the worst goals for column in the country! I'm sorry but he was an absolute disaster.

borolad259 Posted on 26/11/2009 20:19
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Now I know why people were so glad to see Briggsy back. He's good entertainment.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 20:19
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I agree with what you say, but the point I'm making is that the difference in what they achieved wasn't such a quantum leap as some people claim.

There were some bad times under Smac, as well as the good. I remember seeing some strong disaproval amongst many fans regarding SMAC and that was after we had won the CC.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 20:22
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Adi

I don't recall saying you had.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 20:25
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Didn't he get a new contract after the season ticket incident?"

I think that was a tactical decision and more to do with compensation than a desire for him to manage our club for another few seasons.

24_Briggsy Posted on 26/11/2009 20:31
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Beat me too it Jonny.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 26/11/2009 20:36
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't think we either asked for or received compensation

erimus74 Posted on 26/11/2009 20:56
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Can't believe these people either Briggsy.

Some people are saying southgate will make a good manager some day, based on what exactly

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 21:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"I don't think we either asked for or received compensation"

We did and we did and it was a seven figure sum.

HolgateCorner Posted on 26/11/2009 21:51
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I think one of the very few good points made in the debate above is that the Boro managers job may not be the most attractive job despite Gibson's apparent loyalty.

I think Gibbos loyalty became a millstone around Southagte's kneck with people almost openly saying to him he would have been sacked a long time ago if it wasn't for the chairman, that can't have done his esteem or confidence any good and I also think despite our modest size as a club we have a very demanding fan base that avoids the screaming and shouting we see up the road but is very good at exerting its mood on the club in lots of other ways.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 22:15
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Its a myth that chairman sack managers - its the fans that ultimately cost managers their jobs.

Lawrence, Robson & Southgate all went as a direct result of losing the fan base.

If Southgate had had the consensus behind him I'm very sure he would still be in a job - it really wasn't our league position that cost him his job was it, despite what some individuals may have said after his departure.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 11:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I truly wish Steve Gibson would admit he got this appointment wrong.

Another dire performance, a bunch of players who look as though they've never seen each other before.

Strachan has really changed things, for worse though.

[V]

borolad259 Posted on 29/11/2009 13:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I'm a huge fan of Gibbo, but I do think that he blinked, lost his nerve, with Southgate. I'll bet he's got niggly regrets now.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/11/2009 14:26
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I bet he doesn't. He made the right decision. No need to regret it.

I have been speaking to one of the players today. He feels that there has been a significant improvement since the appointment that will work its way through to results.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 14:29
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

He must be seeing things that a lot of us can't then.

Which players in which Sunday League team have you been talking to?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 29/11/2009 14:31
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I think the time was right for Southgate to go and it was a brave decision from SG to do it when he did.

We were challenging, but everyone knows deep down that things weren't right - the WBA was evidence of that.

WGS will get it right, but he needs to do it very quickly or it will be too late.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 14:33
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I bet Gibsons only regret is that he didn't appoint Strachan (or someone like him) last January rather than hoping it would all come right on the night.

There seems to be a small number of people on here who won't even give Strachan a chance and I'm wondering what is driving that destructive little mentality in the present circumstances when there are loads of matches left to play and with a good run after Christmas we can still make at least the play offs.

Some people seem to want Strachan to fail - why can that be?

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 14:35
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

It was totally the wrong time.

If he was going to do it should have been at the end of last seaon to give someone the summmer to do what he thought needed to be done.

But Southgate followed orders so how can he carry the can by himself?

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 29/11/2009 14:36
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I agree MK

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 29/11/2009 14:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

"Some people seem to want Strachan to fail - why can that be?"

The same twisted reasons that many wanted GS to fail I suppose.


Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 29/11/2009 14:42
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't think anyone wants Strachan to fail, it's that they currently see no improvement and a decline in our play.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 14:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I agree JRDP.

I never wanted Gareth to fail either or any of our other managers

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 14:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

what's gone has gone now, it's time to get on with it.

Everybody was harping on about wanting an experienced manager and we have one now, or is he the 'wrong' experienced manager?

Are people still in their fantasy world thinking Gibbo should have got O'Neill (who hasn't done much with Villa considering the money he has spent) but, again, that's gone and his potential appointment at the Boro is also history.

Southgate got us relegated, not all the poor signings were outside his control and the team surprisingly had a distinct lack of fight when going down. Gibbo gave him a chance to make amends but clearly didn't like getting panned 5 nil at home by WBA.

So it's all change now, and what's the problem with that?

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 14:56
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Holgate you do talk a load of $.... and this occasion is no different.

Everybody was not harping on about wanting an experienced manager.

When Strachan was first mooted, even before Gareth was sacked I was against his appointment. The guy is too wrapped up in himself.

Wrong time to sack Southgate.

Wrong appointment as replacement.

Southgate only got the players he was allowed to get and players were let go that he wanted to keep.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 29/11/2009 14:57
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I would have prefered Venables until the end of the season. A man we all know could organise a bag of XXXXXXe and turn it into a bag of gold.

Strachan has done nothing in his managerial career to make me think he's a top manager.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 15:03
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

MKredleaderetc - so putting all your very negative comments about the past behind you, if you can bring yourself to do so, what do you want to see happen now?

Sack Strachan after 4 games? We would be a laughing stock and never attract another manager again, never mind a decent one.

Or are you just moaning for the sake of moaning?

Christmas is coming you know, it's a nice time of year.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/11/2009 15:32
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Wrong time? Nonsense. It was later than it ought to have been but it doesn't make it any less of a good decision. Absolutely the right thing to do.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 15:34
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Of course it was the right thing to do, anybody who thinks otherwise is barking mad.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 29/11/2009 15:57
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Nobody with a brain cell has said sack Strach. We just find the fact that we have gone backwards in the last 4 games unacceptable for the squad we have.

borobadge Posted on 29/11/2009 16:11
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

i didnt want southagte sacked, particularly after the start to the season we had.

i didnt particularly want or think that strachan is the right manager for this football club....theyre both my 'opinion'

Gordon Strachan is now the manager of Middlesbrough Football Club, i will support him 100% until Steve Gibson disposes of his services (as inevitably he will at some time in the future)...

Esteban Posted on 29/11/2009 16:13
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Bad bad time to let southgate go. The squad was on a low instead of having a lift.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 16:20
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

what squads that one then, the one that took us down with out a murmer last season and the one that got beat at home by WBA 5, yes that was 5, nil, Leicester and Watford?

Not exactly up there with Man U in squad depth are we?

Mavrick Posted on 29/11/2009 17:01
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Bored of this post now!!!!

MKredleaderOne Posted on 29/11/2009 21:47
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Holgate, you're doing it again.

The squad is vastly different from last season.

The point is we are going backwards under Strachan.

You didn't want Southgate just like some of us didn't want Strachan.

I find it odd that it was ok to criticise Southgate from day 1 but we have to Strachan no matter what.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/11/2009 23:13
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

MKleaderred or whatever - you make some poor assumptions when you post on here.

I was a Southgate apologist for a long time but my patience ran out early this season when we started to drift into decline again after a decent start and start doing the same old things again like conceding poor goals late on. It was last season all over again for me.

I'm neutral about the choice of Strachan, but I think you have to give him a chance, and by that I mean a couple of seasons, not a couple of matches and you can't seriously want him out after just a few weeks in charge? He has clearly started a process of overall change which will hopefully benefit us in the longer term.

One thing is for sure, and I've been watching this club in the flesh for well over 40 years, so I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are entitled to yours, we needed a change of management. Even if Strachan ultimately fails, it was still the right thing to do to change the manager.

24_Briggsy Posted on 29/11/2009 23:21
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

MK - Southgate should have gone last Jan, he was out of his depth. You can slate Strachan all you want but if Southgate was sacked sooner we wouldnt be in this position. thats that bottomline.

Ask youself this, would you have agreed with the decsion to relieve Southgate of his psotion in June?

br14 Posted on 30/11/2009 03:00
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I never thought I'd live to see the day when OnTheMap defended AdiDem [smi]

"When the next striker was bought, it was Gibson and Lamb who identified Afonso Alves as the man who would get the goals to keep Boro in the Premier League. Southgate didnít believe in Alves but allowed himself to be persuaded."

So says David Walsh. A man that knew Southgate well enough to author a book with him.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 30/11/2009 07:46
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Briggsy, Everyone would have agreed that the right time for Southgate to go was June. He shouldn't have had the reins this season. Gibbo let him carry on though, replaced him because he wanted promotion (not in 2 or 3 seasons but this season). We have since gone backwards.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/11/2009 07:58
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

A man that also gets regular puff pieces into the ether on his man's behalf. Don't believe everything that you read. Southgate was his own man. I will give him some credit for that - he stood up to Gibson regularly and almost resigned during his very first pre-season to set down a marker.

To say we've gone backwards under Strachan by the way is plainly daft.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 30/11/2009 10:09
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

To say we haven't gone backwards since Strachan has come in is dafter.

Southagate offered his resignation on more than one occasion from what i've been told off a former Boro player.

Mavrick Posted on 30/11/2009 10:11
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

This post is so XXXXXXing boring! It needs binning with the MKsh!t craic!

Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 30/11/2009 12:57
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Jonny

You can't say that.

Strachan is the Messiah or like a sacred cow to many.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 30/11/2009 13:04
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I as most don't want him to fail but looking at things and stating facts is above some people.

Onwards and upwards.

Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 30/11/2009 13:07
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't think anyone wants him to fail.

Unlike some wanted Southgate to from day 1.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/11/2009 14:04
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

I don't think anyone wanted Southgate to fail. I certainly didn't.

It is daft to judge one or the other after 4 games. That's the point.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 30/11/2009 17:41
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

Maverick

Thank you for your well thought out and eloquent comment.

It's a free country so you think what you want and I'll say what I want after watching the current garbage on offer.

I read with interest Gordons thoughts on Saturdays match. The comments could not relate to the game I watched at London Road.

The_263 Posted on 05/12/2009 17:23
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

hoof

MKredleaderOne Posted on 05/12/2009 17:43
Some said Southgate hadn't a clue

263

I wasn't there today as I couldn't justify the cost.

But well done lads.

1 result though, he still won't get us promoted. Still 13 times the points behind the leaders we were under Gareth.