|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:40|
I was speaking to some friends today and he seems to divide people. I was of the opinion that although Boro's style of play was poor to watch he was clever in the transfer market and built a very strong team. As our most successful manager should be fondly remembered despite his disaster with England. Others seemed to perennially hate him for his treatment of TLF. What is your view?
|scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 18:43|
My view is that TLF was signed by Gibson/Lamb and he didn't fit in with his plans.
And if people thought he was poor to watch, they didn't really and truly know what Southgate was going to inflict next!
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:44|
I think he got rid of Juno at the right time, his performance in Scotland proved it. Its harsh- but thats football
|NorthumbrianBoro Posted on 23/11/2009 18:44|
Guaranteed ton this one I think.
Personally, I think he was a very lucky manager and things seemed to happen for him even though he was a little bit clueless.
He was always full of self praise and keen to pat himself on the back, and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.
Had the luck of being given pots of cash to spend, and spent it very well in terms of short term success at the expense of long term gain.
That said, he did oversee us lifting our first major trophy, so its mixed feelings from me.
|Bandy Posted on 23/11/2009 18:44|
Juninho was unbelievable to watch. When he got the ball I genuinely got a tingle in my balls
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 18:45|
All players are signed by the manager.
He made great signings. Best squad of players I'll ever see at the club, although I have seen a better first XI. His style of play meant we only reached 7th spot, which was pitiful for what he had at his disposal.
|NorthumbrianBoro Posted on 23/11/2009 18:46|
CTC - he also made some poor signings too. Need I mention Michael Ricketts?
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 18:47|
The point is Babs, he was what he was, did what he did, and we'll never know the detail of what went on.
He gave us a great couple of seasons, with, however, handing over a poisoned chalice- for anyone to pick-up, never mind Southgate.
I had a better ride with Robbo.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:47|
I think that the 'pots of cash' were generally spent well though. Maccarone aside the acquisitions of Boateng, Southgate, Viduka, Yakubu and Hasselbaink were all excellent
|Bandy Posted on 23/11/2009 18:47|
McClaren was defensive minded because he knew we would get caught with our pants down in the prem by attacking teams. hence why we counter attacked. We had the players to do it well, particularly when Stuey emerged
|scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 18:48|
"All players are signed by the manager."
Well they aren't, are they? Southgate didn't want Alves at first and had to be convinced by Lamb.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:48|
poisoned chalice? do tell
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 18:49|
'CTC - he also made some poor signings too. Need I mention Michael Ricketts?'
Name a manager that hasn't.
|Bandy Posted on 23/11/2009 18:49|
my mole tells me gareth said hang fire with alves as he wanted to see him first hand since he screwed up with the dong gook lee deal BUT the deal was rushed for financial benefits and hence his sudden arrrival
|John_Boro Posted on 23/11/2009 18:50|
a tough one
compared to southgate, hes a genius, built an incredibly strong team, great mix of youth, brought through downing taylor (half decent back then) catts morrison, and experience, viduka jimmy zenden boateng all had great spells at boro
also overspent, perhaps underachieved in terms of league table positions??? but we'll never have better days than games under him
on balance, hes no muppet, record at twente proves that, he over-spent, and left a bit of a mess, that needed experience to sort out, not GS1, but was most succesful boro manager ever
id say, 7/10
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:50|
Yeh I agree even Sir Alex and Wenger make the occasional Djemba-Djemba or Cygan sized calamity
|Not_Smog Posted on 23/11/2009 18:50|
Steve McClaren was the best football manager MFC has ever had - FACT.
The idiots that can't see that are the same retards McClaren was talking about when he said some of our fans need educating about football.
|NorthumbrianBoro Posted on 23/11/2009 18:52|
Don't disagree that all managers have dropped a bollock in the transfer market. They all have! Not even particularly having a go at him, as by and large I think he spent his money well. My point though, is that it was all about the here and now and immediate success and never thinking about the future.
That is a major contributing factor to our current position, though of course Steve Gibson has to take an apportionment of the blame for that too.
|scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 18:53|
I could imagine TLF becoming available was also time-critical too, Bandy.
Anyway, what I'd give right now to be able to moan about the 'manner' of how we win games....
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 18:53|
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 18:54|
in the cups, fantastic 9/10
in the league, considering the money he had and wages and overpaid, over aged squad he left 3/10
when people judge mclaren they judge the cups, its a good job becuase if it was league, he would get crucified
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:54|
I think Bandy makes a good point about Mcclarens style of play- that it is necessary to build from the back as proven by Robbo when he was in charge- a fantastic attack but still got relegated
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 18:55|
We qualified for Euorpe via the League.
|scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 18:56|
Highest ever league finish and qualifying for europe via the league is not something I can dismiss as easily as you. Yeah it wasn't all rosy but europe x 2, one euro final and the cc cup was plenty enough.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 18:57|
'its a good job becuase if it was league, he would get crucified'
Mcclaren got us our highest PL finish!
granted it wasnt as good in other seasons but this was because of cup distractions for example 50+ games in his final season
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 18:58|
He knew, Gibbo knew, you knew, I knew- and maybe even Lamby- knew that he was going for the England job. I've never knocked him for that- carpe diem- or whatever. We were a stepping stone Babs to England or manure or whatever-let's be honest. We didn't have a team- we had a group of individuals- and we didn't even do our homework on Seville.
It was an enthralling time, but we rode our luck to Eindhoven, and as I say:
I had a better ride with Robbo
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 19:06|
fair enough clarence but cant knock him for wanting the england job. The question is, would you have had him back rather than WGS? I would have
|speckyget Posted on 23/11/2009 19:11|
Fine. Judge him by the league. Turned a moribund crew of ageing relegation certainties into a solid Premier oufit. People are happy to say he left a load of dross, and conveniently ignore what he inherited.
Not a tough question at all this.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 19:13|
also he made some of the academy graduates into what they are today such as downing and cattermole
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 19:32|
I'm not knocking him for wanting the England job- as I say, most of us knew his agenda.
Have him back instead of Strachan? (WGS?)
To be truthful- no. He was never us and we were never for him- longterm.
Good to talk to you Babs; no crap and insults when there's a difference of opinion,
Respect to You.
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 19:35|
actually the academy coaches made the academy players what they are, and they deserve all the credit, not steve mclaren
dave parnaby deserves far more credit for that than mclaren
all he done was play them occasionaly, he didnt coach them, until they got into the first team
its just another eample of boro fans thinking the manager is god like at a club and controls everything from wage budgets, tea ladies, gate prices and coaching the kids, when in reality hes just the manager of the first team
the manager doesnt even manage or coach the reserves, theres a seperate bloke for that
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 19:39|
i meant credit for steve mcclaren for introducing them into the first team and who said anything about reserves?
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 19:42|
Always have a lot of time for your opinions-but I never felt McClaren was 'Boro'.
I felt, as I said, he rode a lot of luck and, as we know, that road to Eindhoven was filled with last-ditch cavalry charges and what the NFL would call "Hail Mary's".
But I don't ever think we were a 'solid Premier outfit' under SMc
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 19:45|
credit, how does he deserve credit for that, thats the way all clubs operate, they have a core of first teamers and when the numbers are low, or they rest players for cup games etc, they play the young lads or give them a try, he hardly deserves 'credit' for that, its his job
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 19:52|
yes but what im trying to say is that he developed downing as his manager as he told him how to play and told him what most to work on and in doing so developed one of the best wingers in england
|Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 19:53|
1. He inherited a team that narrowly escaped relegation, that was poor and that needed a complete overhaul. He developed the best team I have seen us have and left behind a really well balanced squad that included a lot of younger players he had given experience to that form the foundation of our current squad.
2. He didn't treat Juninho badly. All he told him was that he wasn't going to be first choice. Juninho chose to leave.
3. Highest Premiership finish, Cup win, qualifying for Europe twice, once through league position and getting to the UEFA Cup Final.
If we're judging McClaren's league performance as 3/10, what on earth would Southgate get?
4. Anyone that thinks the manager doesn't talk to the reserve manager or the Academy Directors and doesn't have any influence is an idiot.
5. McClaren deserves huge credit for developing the young players at the club. He's not the only one but you can't underestimate how important the first team experience he gave them was.
|NedKat Posted on 23/11/2009 19:54|
|42Oven Posted on 23/11/2009 20:00|
McClarens football was no more exciting than the stuff Southgate served up.Even the epic European results were a fluke.However its results that count and he was the most succesful manager we ever had(and probably ever will have).
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:06|
Point taken. No disagreemo.
I just felt he had an agenda and he left a problem- which is understandable, for whomsoever took over.
1- Did he really develop the
best team we've ever had? Balanced squad when he left???
2- I accept that TLF wasn't first choice, but there were times when we could have done with him, and a bit more care might have afforded that
3- Noted- but see my earlier posts
4- What can I say: I'm only a punter
Like I said- I wouldn't have him back.
Yes or No will do.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:10|
I agree with much that adi said, especially about developing the young players
|Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 20:11|
Yes, I would have him back in a second, even though it was the right time for him to go, if that makes sense.
1. Yes, that's my opinion.
2. Juninho wanted a guarantee of regular football. McClaren couldn't give him it. He left. Nothing more that could be said or done.
3. I have read them. McClaren was ambitious. I would much rather have an ambitious manager than one whose ambitions began and ended with Middlesbrough.
4. That wasn't directed at you.
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:13|
Then I'm off to bed Babs.
PS: Where are you?
I'm Young, tall, good-looking and love Steve McLaren. Do we have a lot in common. Maybe a coffee?
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:15|
ahem a bit odd
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:18|
Good to see you on a decent, yet debatable, thread. Hope all is well with you and yours-you've given me a lot of enjoyment over the years.
I hope too, that you get that stuff sorted out with H-H; because he keeps us interested also, but I take your point about insulting family.
I actually think you might be OK, when you meet.
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:20|
there is a difference between a manager 'talking' to the clubs academy director and being single handedly being responsible for a players development
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:23|
no-one said single-handedly responsible but at the end of the day it is a huge leap from youth to PL level and Mcclaren gave stewy the chance
|Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 20:24|
Read point 5 again and come back Dude.
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:24|
Given the norms of this Message board, I would have thought extremely moral and thoughtfully put.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:26|
i think you may be barking up the wrong tree
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:27|
i dont compare southgates league performances to mclarens due to the gargantuan difference in wages due to mclarens over spending and a need to massively cut back
the only realistic comparison you can make is mclarens last season and southgates first as that is the point when there was the least amount of transition
mclarens last season 14th
southgates first 12th
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:28|
mcclarens last season
FA Cup semi and Uefa final
slight distractions methinks
|ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 23/11/2009 20:28|
Adi, I thought McClaren wanted to offload Juninho from the wage bill. Gibson said on the Legends show a few months later, that the view of McClaren and the coaching staff was that he was past his best. This, despite the fact that he was our joint top scorer the previous season, even though he was left out by McClaren for most of September and October.
I was surprised when he came back as during McClaren's first season, he played 4-4-2, a system that Juninho doesn't really fit into. If you play him, you've got to either lose a forward and play 4-4-1-1, or lose a midfielder and play 4-3-1-2. I get the feeling he was a signing thrust upon McClaren by Gibbo and Lamb, and when we'd won the Carling Cup, McClaren was in a position of strength to tell them who he did and didn't want.
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:29|
If I'm barking up the wrong tree- I apologize Babs.
Anyway- Up the Boro and hoof for a ton
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:30|
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:36|
you judge a team and a squad over a league season not a cup one
besides, you cant use that cup excuse for league performance when we had a squad of about 200 players and a wage bill of nigh on 70 million
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:46|
Well said The Dude
|Not_Smog Posted on 23/11/2009 20:53|
Some of our support are so deluded they still can't see that McClaren was easily our best ever manager.
a 7th in the league
Two successive seasons in Europe
A European final
No manager has ever got close to achieving anything like that with our club.
I believe i will tell my kids about those halcyon days, beating Roma and Lazio in Europe, stuffing Man Ure, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea at home.
We will probably never see days like those again in our lifetimes.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 20:57|
its not an excuse, 14th place is not a bad finish when combined with two cup runs
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:58|
we won the league cup when all the top 4 couldnt be arsed, we played arsenal under 12 in both semis so lets not XXXXXX on about that
we got pulverised in the final of the eufa, even if people class that as sucess
and despite spending twice as much as southgate, aside from 1 season, when we finshed, he actually was worse than southgate in his first 2 years
most zoo animals could have finished mid table with boro 5 years ago, we must have been top eight in the wage columns, easy, viduka, hasselbaink, yakubu, mendieta, zenden, juninho etc, XXXXXX me, we couldnt afford one of those players now
|ClarenceofthePort Posted on 23/11/2009 20:59|
Clinically, you are correct- he was our most successful manager- this is a given.
The original question asked:
"As our most successful manager should he be fondly remembered despite his disaster with England. Others seemed to perennially hate him for his treatment of TLF. What is your view?"
I don't subscribe to that fond remembrance.
PS- If you're not-smog what are you?
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:00|
really babs, what 2 cup runs were those
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 21:03|
FA Cup and Uefa Cup? or had you forgotten about them
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:07|
thanks for reminding me, a 38 game mind numbing premiership season, with countless hammerings by arsenal, villa etc, but it was balanced out by an utter humiliation in the eufa cup and a terrible performance against a poor west ham team that had only just been promoted
yeh, cheers steve, a memorable season, i could wait to forget it
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 21:09|
i find it unbelievable that Boro win their first trophy and reach a European final under this man yet you cant wait to forget him? are there any former boro managers that you approve of?
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:13|
those cup finals were a phyrric victory, and led to our current demise
of that i have no doubt
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 21:15|
so which managers have you approved of (if any)?
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:19|
i dont obssess over them, i realise that a manager only plays a very small part in if a club is succesful or not, so i dont really think about it, some fans think the manager is an omnipotent warlord who dictates everything, but thats just XXXXXXe
if a club is succesful its because they have good players and a high wage bill, its undesputable, proven fact
even blackburn won the league because they spent more than anybody else at the time
|Not_Smog Posted on 23/11/2009 21:19|
The Not part of my username comes from living in Nottingham.
The_Dude - that roller-coaster season was potentially the most exciting season to be a Boro fan ever and you say it was a season you couldn't wait to forget?
Are you really that retarded?
Were you dropped on your head or something?
Obviously you can't be a Boro fan because those Basle and Steaua nights are nights
i'll never forget.
The agony to ecstasy of that semi final night is something that will go down in MFC history as one of the (if not the) greatest night in our clubs history.
But i guess you forgot them the next morning? I suppose if you did you are not a Middlesbrough supporter.
You are either a clown of Southgate proportions or a wind up merchant.
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 21:23|
'left behind a really well balanced squad that included a lot of younger players he had given experience'
I don't particularly agree with this bit. We weren't a well balanced squad at all. He'd failed to replace Zenden in the team and the fine balance had gone. He brought in the immobile Rochemback and didn't realise his mistake, or did and chose not to rectify it because he had his eye on the door.
Hasselbaink and Southgate, two of his better players, were ready to hang up their boots. We didn't have a decent Premier League standard full back at the club and had one decent player (Boateng) in the middle of the park, he was ageing fast. Doriva was at the end of his career, the same applies to Mendietta.
Up front we had the occasional Viduka, with an eye on the door, Yakubu, when he could be bothered, and Maccarone.
At the back we had Pogatetz and Riggott, who had been carried by Southgate for a season.
He was lucky to inherit some decent younger players, only one has gone on to prove he was a decent Premiership player, Downing. The initial excitement that pushed them on during their first few displays had disappeared and they were beginning to look mediocre, McMahon, Parnaby, Taylor and Morrison. The jury's still out for me on Cattermole.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 23/11/2009 21:26|
i would argue southgate started with a stronger, more unified squad than mcclaren did
|The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:35|
well, that would explain him finishing 2 places higher than mclaren
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 21:40|
'i would argue southgate started with a stronger, more unified squad than mcclaren did'
So would I. The team he took on was poor, he transformed it into a decent side, but it was all short term stuff.
Robson had done the same with Lawrence's team, and repeated it after the first relegation. He built two different squads. He lost the plot though.
Southgate had enough ammo to rebuild the side. He just didn't have a clue how to.
|24_Briggsy Posted on 23/11/2009 22:15|
Cracking manager, you just have to look at his achievements on paper to see how succesful he was here. Would have liked him to stay on longer but I guess with the support divided I guess he was on borrowed time. Ok there times to forget but there were many times that were unforgetable. His tenure here was a sucesful one thats for sure and it speaks volumes to think that we can only hope that we can get back to the level we were at when McClaren was at the helm.
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 22:19|
On paper he got to one less cup final than Robbo, but we managed to win one of them
|Not_Smog Posted on 23/11/2009 22:28|
How can you compare McClaren and Robson?
One won a trophy and took us to the promised land of European football.
The other relegated us with arguably the most talented bunch of footballers ever to wear the shirt.
One was/is a quality football manager the other isn't and never was.
|NorthumbrianBoro Posted on 23/11/2009 22:39|
Totally disagree Not_Smog - I would argue that the reason we were relegated was that we had Rav, TLF and Emerson carrying a very average group of players.
Big Nige was a quality player at the end of a long, injury wrecked career and Festa came in too late. Asides from those we had nobody.
The McClaren squad that went into Europe was overall a far, far stronger proposition than the team that got relegated in 96/97.
|NedKat Posted on 23/11/2009 23:54|
Never liked McClaren, and I never trusted him. In retrospect, the Boro got into Europe because of a last minute penalty save. They got into the final because of the players coming back from the dead, and winning the League Cup isn't all that difficult.
Good managers do not get season tickets thrown at them .... and results overall during his period in charge aren't anything to write home about. I was pleased when he went to England, just like Gibbo was.
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/11/2009 00:05|
Winning a cup carries so much luck.
The Mackems beat Leeds in 1973 and never let us forget about it. Their team of the late 90's was far superior but Reid didn't have the luck to pick up a trophy.
Same goes for Joe Harvey's fairs Cup side of 68-69 compared to Keegan's of the 90's.
Mac took us to 7th, so did Charlton, but he did it on a shoestring. Charlton's team missed the title by 5 points. How far off was Mac's? For me, Mac had the better squad of the two. Charlton was by far a better manager. Mac's team finished two places higher than Robson's team, and he's not considered a genius by many of our fans.
|24_Briggsy Posted on 24/11/2009 07:25|
Ned if you never like McClaren thats fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to totally discredit the achievements McClaren achieved is disrespectful in my opnion. Me thinks your a hard man to please.
|Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 08:10|
It seems very easy for some to dismiss the 7th place finish, which is one of our biggest achievements in modern times. We qualified for Europe via the league for god's sake!!!!
It wasn't just a penalty save either. Presumably if that penalty saved had happened in the first game of the season rather than the last his achievement would have been greater? Utter nonsense.
The comparison to Charlton is a nonsense too. Charlton had less money but then so did the rest of the division. The gulf between the top 4 and the rest didn't exist in the way that it does now so there is little comparison.
And winning the Carling Cup is easy is it? We haven't manged it since and we're one of the few clubs outside of the top 4 to have won it in a good few years and yet it was easy. I better book Wembley tickets for next season then.
While we're at it let's dismiss the two ventures into Europe and the final as well. Why not.
It really does beggar belief that some fans are so prepared to dismiss our greatest achievements, which is what they are, simply because they don't LIKE the manager that got us there.
Dude typifies it. As I understand it, Dude is arguing that McClaren, with all of those achievements was rubbish and that using the Cups in his final season to explain a 14th place finish is an excuse and yet is prepared to defend Southgate to the hilt when he got us relegated and uses the lack of financial backing as a reason for the relegation (not an excuse you understand).
As I say, it beggars belief.
|AlBoro1984 Posted on 24/11/2009 08:18|
Good club manager as he is proving at Twente. However he was a bit of a self-important tit. Think the England experience would have brought him crashing back down to reality and will ultimately improve him as a manager.
|degsyspesh Posted on 24/11/2009 08:20|
Dude - seriously, wtf are you on about?
|scuzzmonster Posted on 24/11/2009 08:22|
A lot of us knew deep down we'd never have it any better than we did under McClaren but this didn't make it any easier to watch his teams play at times and this is as much true as is the fact he was our most successful manager, without shadow of doubt. As for demonizing managers / players who use our club as a stepping stone to better things, surely the stature of MFC is such that we should be grateful for ANY benefits, even those which are relatively short-term?
Not a big fan of Mac as a guy but an extremely competent club manager, I'd say. 8/10
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 10:16|
best boro manager in my lifetime without a shadow of a doubt
|Critical_Bill Posted on 24/11/2009 10:49|
The qualification through finishing 7th was only because one of the top 4 won the FA Cup.
|skiprat Posted on 24/11/2009 10:58|
"we won the league cup when all the top 4 couldnt be arsed, we played arsenal under 12 in both semis so lets not XXXXXX on about that"
I suggest you go back and look at the Arsenal teams that we played in both those legs.
To go to Highbury and win was an immense achievement but to then take the pressure of the 2nd leg and get us to Cardiff was a brilliant feat.
McClaren's biggest mistake was not strengthening in January in the season when we ended up finishing 7th. 4th place was really up for grabs that season yet us. Bolton and Everton couldn't string anything together, drew loads where we should have won and eventually we managed to scrape 7th from City.
|sasboro1 Posted on 24/11/2009 11:00|
excellent cup manager but neglegted the league. i think those last few seasons of resting players in league games did a lot of damage with season ticket sales.
shame he is still not welcome at the ground and never been back.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 15:27|
I saw mcclaren in showcase cinemas the other day which shows he is obviously about shame he has not been back to the riverside
|Adi_Dem Posted on 24/11/2009 15:32|
skiprat - I don't think he could have strengthened. If you remember two key players in Boateng and Viduka were injured on a long term basis and so we couldn't afford to sign replacements. Loans would have been the best we could have done.
|Ponderosaheadboardbasher Posted on 24/11/2009 15:34|
People continuing to make the statement that he left the squad in a bad state. In his defence I would say it was far better than the one he inherited.
Pure conjecture, but I would claim that if he had stayed he would have made a better job of reshaping it than his successor did.
|Big_Shot Posted on 24/11/2009 15:35|
We were rumoured to be in for Geremi and Bobo Balde in that transfer window. We bought Yakubu 4 months later, if we had bought him in January instead things could have been very different.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 16:21|
Mcclarens record at twente shows he is a very good (club) manager, if boring
it seems to be personality/style issues with him that are the problem
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 19:08|
hoof for a ton!
|SirGooner01 Posted on 24/11/2009 19:28|
I personally think Mclaren is a very good coach, but not yet a great manager.At twente he is the coach and has a general manager with him which is why it works so well.I could see him doing a good job around euroupe in the same sort of role.
I have been following him at twente and he has done a fantastic job, keeping the club progressing and the players like him alot,to top the league ahead of dutch giants like ajax is no mean feat.
The england job was to big for him though and came to early , and he made some major msitakes. Including getting to pally with the players.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 19:36|
ive never reallt followed dutch football, always got the impression that psv and ajax had an old firm style dominance. Is this true? and if it is breaking the monopoly is no mean feat
|GGGG Posted on 24/11/2009 19:39|
"thanks for reminding me, a 38 game mind numbing premiership season"
Boro 3 - 3 Spurs
Boro 4 - 1 Man Utd
Boro 2 - 1 Arsenal
Boro 3 - 0 Chelsea
Birmingham 0 - 3 Boro
Boro 4 - 3 Bolton
Sunderland 0 - 3 Boro
Newcastle 2 - 2 Boro
all decent games in the league that season mix them in with the cup games then Stevie Macs last season wasnt so boring really
|SirGooner01 Posted on 24/11/2009 19:42|
Part of it hass been the mismanagment and loss of players at the big clubs. Ajax go through managers like hotcakes including the not so great Van Basten, they have also lost babel, huntelear, sniejder, and van der vart to bigger clubs and have not replaced those class of players (suarez aside).
But part of it has been the rebirth with wealthy owners of clubs like twente and az who realise that with a good coach and canny buys they can now compete with the big boys.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 24/11/2009 19:48|
good point GGGG
thanks sir gooner
|Boro_Babs Posted on 25/11/2009 14:21|
anyone else never got a ton before?
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 25/11/2009 14:29|
There you go!
|alf-roberts Posted on 25/11/2009 14:36|
Michael Ricketts -although he was S****, his equaliser resulted in us getting to Cardiff if I remember rightly?
|footyteam Posted on 25/11/2009 16:46|
He didn't treat Juninho badly. All he told him was that he wasn't going to be first choice. Juninho chose to leave.
Im sorry but thats bollox. Mclaren never even spoke to juninho, he got his secretary to tell him he was being sold
|Adi_Dem Posted on 25/11/2009 19:54|
It's not bollox. It's absolutely correct and well documented.
|Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 25/11/2009 20:03|
I dont think its a huge claim to suggest SMAC's man management sometimes left a bit to be desired.
Apparently some players nicknamed him 'Cadbury', on account of him being inclined to eat himself if he had been made of chocolate.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 25/11/2009 23:26|
|onthemap Posted on 26/11/2009 00:36|
2nd only to Big Jack.
|lakeoffire Posted on 26/11/2009 08:49|
ian's right, the secretary told Juninho he was being sold and he shed tears
|Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 09:30|
|Link: The man himself|
|lakeoffire Posted on 26/11/2009 09:34|
well then maybe thats what happened after the initial news then.
|Adi_Dem Posted on 26/11/2009 09:38|
Oh, I see. It didn't happen at all. Juninho hates McClaren and would love nothing more than for a story like that to be true so that he could shout it from the rooftops. The fact is that it isn't true.
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 26/11/2009 11:18|
Nice one Adi - using facts doesn't half cause confusion on here sometimes!
|Boro_Babs Posted on 26/11/2009 20:04|
cant argue with that kind of evidence
|Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 26/11/2009 20:12|
I would have a guess and say SMAC saw Juninho as a threat to him in terms of his influence as a player, amongst the media, the other players, but most of all the fans.
I think it was a similar situation With Beckham when he became England manager.
|Boro_Babs Posted on 26/11/2009 20:30|
id just say juninho was past it. took a brave decision
|The_263 Posted on 27/11/2009 07:16|
The harsh reality (ask any player who played undet him at MFC) is that Smac spent very little time with his players during the week. Everything was left to the coaches. So is this perceived coaching skill he possesses a result of his appointments or osmosis? In thsi respect the guy Boksic (from here) as a point.
His relationship with the fans and the club was ugly, in general. The boardroom hated him, for some reason. I know one well known person on the board was sickend by us winning our first domestic trophy with him in charge. Perhaps it was his covert efforts to find something else more aligned with his ambition. Or his fastidiousness opposite his image-management.
Luck played a factor during his reign, paying over the odds of long-in-the-tooth players is not good judgement but short termism. He wanted to sell Stuey and blaming the kids for the Arsenal thrashing was cheap and poor management. Academy kids came in when there was an injury issue, it was not part of a plan. His relationship with the academy was detached - just ask Proctor. Suggesting that Boro fans need to be educated is poor management.
|Adi_Dem Posted on 27/11/2009 08:33|
I can't go along with that 263. He was heavily involved in training on a daily basis, so I don't know where that has come from.
In terms of his relationships, you're absolutely right. Almost everyone at MFC disliked him. He was ambitious, arrogant and ruthless. I would much rather that though than someone like Robson, who was everyone's friend.
You talk about short termi-ism but the facts don't back that up. Part of his remit was the development of our young players. He bought experienced players, yes, but there was a good balance to the squad. He made experienced Premiership players out of the likes of Downing, Johnson, Morrison, Cattermole, Taylor etc. He brought in players like Queudrue, Yak, Poggy, Riggott, Christie, Maccarone. He even set up the deal for Huth. Some of those signings didn't work but you can't argue they weren't for the longer term. Academy kids were most definitely part of his plan and, indeed, his remit. Proctor's view is tainted by the massive falling out they had.
Finally, he was right about the education
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 08:46|
all that does is say that mclaren explained why.
trust me, it wasn't him who told juninho initially
and i've read that before
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 08:49|
TLF couldnt cut it at Celtic FFS - surely that proves he was on the way down - even Samaras has done well up there!!
I went to Eindhoven with McClaren - on Saturday its Peterborough. Doesnt that say it all?!
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 08:53|
i think it was more to do with MON bypassing the midfield.
he was on the slope down but I say we could have used him that season.
as much as the league finish was brilliant it could have been better.
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 08:59|
Could have been better - unless you mean we could have come in the top 4 then 7th, 6th or 5th is the same in terms of what it gets us.
The Mc bashing is IMHO far too strong - he is by no means perfect but he's actually delivered for us unlike ANYONE else - so whilst Robson is a legend and Big Jack got us promoted etc etc they never won us anything sadly (I got sick of the FA cup 6th round as did many of my age!!)
Typical Boro 'Tall Poppy' syndrome - we have to turn on those that do well for us.
Anyway he's gone and I am sure the Twente fans are having a ball at the moment. I wish we were!!!
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 09:05|
No, I think we could have gone further in cups, whats wrong with that, its was a good season, i'm just saying.
Its not getting on Mclarens back or whatever, just knowing that he's a complete arsewipe with no respect for anyone
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 09:11|
We went much further in cups the following season and proved that most clubs our size dont have the squad for a 3 pronged attack on league and cup fronts - Villa conceded this last year by bottling the UEFA cup to challenge for the league, and they are bigger than us IMHO.
'Arsewipe' - how much time have you spent in the company of the bloke? Not of people who had dealings with him but actual contact?
If it's none then you should take a look at yourself - basing opinions on heresay and the comments of others is not always the brighest move!
If you know him well, explain why he is an arsewipe - it wasnt your mum he had the fling with was it?!
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 09:30|
direct contact once, he was pig ignorant.
I know another board member who has met him several times and said the same.
so i'll base my opinions on that thanx.
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 09:30|
and is cheating on your wife not enough to make you an arsewipe?
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 09:41|
Ah the moral high ground and the esteemed opinions of another board member.
And you met him once - well I defer to you then - I am sure you spent hours getting to know the bloke and understanding some of the facts behind the rumours posted on here. Or did he just refuse you an autograph?!
And dare I ask did you tell him he was an arse wipe when you did meet him? Or do you reserve name calling for when you skulk behind a keyboard.
PS cheating on one's wife is indeed a pretty poor thing to do, but that's not why you were making your comments was it? Or did I misunderstand and this is all moral tirade about the sanctity of marriage?
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 09:47|
bloody hell, is he your dad?
trust me, he's an arsewipe
your dad or not
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 10:01|
Given the stuff you come out with I don't think I would trust you to tell me what day of the week it was.
'Is he your dad?' makes me think you are still a bit of a kid - he's just a bloke I have actually spent a bit of time with professionally on many of occasions and he is exactly that - a thorough professional - there are people I know that are far warmer and better with the public e.g. El Tel, but to call someone an arse wipe is IMHO simply wrong (and if you fall back on 'well it's my opinion' then I will fall back on 'you form opinions without any semblance of knowledge' - but there again on here that will make you one of the elite!)
Anyway, have a nice day and I hope it doesn't rain for your paper round later.
|Adi_Dem Posted on 27/11/2009 10:03|
I spent quite a bit of time with him and his sons once. He may have been different in his professional life but I thought he was a really decent bloke.
As for the Juninho thing, I know for an absolute fact that the rumour about his secretary informing him is false. 100% false. As I've already said, if that had happened Juninho, who hates McClaren, would love to be shouting it from the rooftops. He had the perfect opportunity to do so in that interview and many times before and since. He hasn't. In fact, he confirms that it was McClaren that told him. In addition, I watched an interview with him at one of the pre-season friendlies the summer he left. He confirmed that McClaren had told him he was not going to be a first team regular, which is why he decided to leave.
McClaren was proven right by the way. There was no way Juninho was getting in the team ahead of any of our other midfielders or strikers.
|The_same_as_before Posted on 27/11/2009 10:04|
McC was and still to date is the the best MFC manager ever.
His weakness was his ambition, and who in their early 40's would turn down the England job?
I could not give a shoite if he was likeable or Atilla the Hun.
|Adi_Dem Posted on 27/11/2009 10:14|
I slightly disagree. I believe that his ambition was his strength. Having a manager whose ambitions begin and end with MFC is small time and will ultimately lead to failure.
|The_same_as_before Posted on 27/11/2009 10:17|
I probably agree with you, but from a manager of no more than 4 years to take on the might of the British press, stupid.
Great Great club manager, and will go from strength to strength in Europe
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 10:19|
I just thought 'arsewipe' was a bit much - I can think of many who fit that description but they didnt get us a day out at Cardiff or Eindhoven!
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 10:21|
Adi-dem how can you be so sure?
Why would Juninho say that in an interview?
he'd come off bitter for a start.
but hey its not my source so i'll shut up.
on the other hand if someone is an arsewipe to me I reserve the right to call them an arsewipe
|sasboro1 Posted on 27/11/2009 10:32|
any news on when the statue is being put up?
|wantmore Posted on 27/11/2009 11:41|
I'd have happily seen the Dutch man back at Boro once I saw what came after him..
Jury's still out on Gordon.. tomorrow should tell, Posh have won 1 in 10 and are rooted to the foot of the table, we should certainly turn them over...
|24_Briggsy Posted on 27/11/2009 11:48|
Sas - Do you think you will see A cup win, a eruopean campaign resulting in a cup final and 13 years of consecutive top flight football again in the rest of your days supporting the boro?
|sasboro1 Posted on 27/11/2009 11:54|
we are knackered now. when we heard smac was off to england, not one person predicted southgate would get the job. That was the time to find a top proven manager. the state we are in has to fall at gibsons door. smac was an excellent cup manager but let the fans down in the league when he didnt take it seriously. pished a lot of season ticket holders off.
when smac went i was expecting a manager to com ein who would improve us in the league. perhaps make us into a consistent top 7 side. i never expected a players with zero coaching experience to come in and i think no else did either
|footyteam Posted on 27/11/2009 13:07|
we were never gonna be a top 7 team.
you have to have money and be marketable for that. we don't/didn't have either.
I think a top manager coming in would have had us in a different position to why are now, but the wage bill was always gonna have to be slashed after eindhoven
|sasboro1 Posted on 27/11/2009 13:12|
"we were never gonna be a top 7 team."
You see, that is a typical attitude of a boro fan.
Imagine someone telling you in in 1991 that in 1997 we woul dbe in 2 cup finals.
No reason why we couldnt have become a top7 side with a decent manager.
|jimmythewondercat Posted on 27/11/2009 13:48|
I think he made a decision to focus on the UEFA cup and FA cup as both were winnable - I think the league was taken as seriously as it could have been with the squad we had.
Are you saying for example that at Fulham fielding the kids was a mistake - we should have got at least a point and probably won it that day (Danny Graham handling his own shot didnt help) and if we had won we would have been 11th - we could probably have come far higher that year and certainly had long term potential.
Outside the top 4-5, no side can sustain 2 major cup runs and a major league campaign IMHO - I am glad we threw the dice and had a go at Europe. We can spend many years now aspiring to a mediocre Premiership finish as success!!
|The_263 Posted on 27/11/2009 16:30|
Why was it so predictable that he would fail with England? Well it was for me.
As for the dutch league - didn't Alves do well there?