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The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 14:26
the eindhoven squad myth

[V]that squad that got to the eufa final is vastly overrated on here, they finished 14th in the league, and southgate in his first season even finished higher with a third of the wage bill removed, finishing 12th

the eindhoven squad was an ageing, overpaid , underachieving rabble, who played XXXXXX poorly in the league, why is it everyone thinks it was some magical squad of world class players southgate ruined and decimated

farcical


Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 22/11/2009 14:29
the eindhoven squad myth

Its a bit of an inconvenient truth for some people I think.

Silent-Asassin Posted on 22/11/2009 14:31
the eindhoven squad myth

I wish we still had them ageing, overpaid , underachieving rabble, now, finishing 14th in Prem [sad]

Old_Gregg Posted on 22/11/2009 14:31
the eindhoven squad myth

True. As I keep hearing - it's only three years since Eindhoven. Well how many players from that squad have retired in just three years? Off the top of my head I can think of six.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:32
the eindhoven squad myth

We sacrificed a lot of league games during the run to the final.

You're right though, Southgate was a TOP TOP manager as a certain Jamie Redknapp would say. The way he took us from an established Premier League Club to Championship nobodies was a magical experience.

Replacing Viduka, Jimmy and Yak with the likes of Alimare, Alves and Mido was a master-stroke. Don't forget selling all of our midfield and replacing them with Mr. Glass legs. Tremendous.

Surely greatness beckons for Mr Southgate. Perhaps Old Trafford will come calling once Alex Ferguson retires?


JLinardi Posted on 22/11/2009 14:34
the eindhoven squad myth

Irs wrong to say he 'decimated' it because only Yakubu is still really doing anything from that squad, schwarzer aswell I guess. Alot of them like Parlour, Viduka, Boateng, even Southgate himself started drifting out with age.

However what you can moan at Southgate for is the players he replaced these guys with.

Shoot Posted on 22/11/2009 14:35
the eindhoven squad myth

on paper that team would rape ours now. think of the amount of international players in that team compared to now. they could hold there own as a team in the premiership which ultimately southgates 'new batch' couldn't.

and on paper they where the most successful squad we've ever had.

stupid post

Sitrep Posted on 22/11/2009 14:36
the eindhoven squad myth

Yep, also got us to a FA cup Semi Final,


very overrated

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 14:36
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]yeh, and there is a load of managers that can replace 60k a week strikers with 15k a week ones and still make them play as well and be as good

mark viduka scored about 25 goals for us in 3 years and cost us about 15 million, brilliant, how could you gareth


oh, and i do remember southgate wanting viduka to stay, but the aussie wanting half the gate receipts in wages according to gibbo, but just blame southgate anyway, thats what divvies do

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 22/11/2009 14:37
the eindhoven squad myth

Southgates problem is that he had limited funds, especially in our last PL season when he essentially had none, but when he did spend money a lot of it was wasted.

But then name me a manger who hasn't wasted money - I cant think of a single one.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:37
the eindhoven squad myth

Southgate said 'judge me when it's my team'

Well Gareth you turned an aging,average PL team in to boring, drab, passionless, souless,leaderless, winnless rabble that broke many records on their way to becoming relegated without a whimper.

You also had enough money to buy adequate players to keep us in the PL, but spent the money badly

Think it's a myth about this finacial crap, yes we may of neede to sell but the money was also invested Huth, Alves,Mido, Diggard, Emnes etc, other teams around us in the PL also had to 'cut their cloth'but at least the teams around us put up a bit of a fight.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:37
the eindhoven squad myth

JLinardi has it spot on. NO ONE blames him for the likes of Viduka leaving or Jimmy etc retiring.

However to suggest he didn't have the money to replace them when spunking over 25M on Alves, Mido, Emnes, Digard, Shoyte etc is wrong.

Every good manager has bad signings yes, but they also have GOOD ones. Southgate's bad ones far outweigh the good ones. I can't even think of many good ones, Young and Woodgate...they weren't even here very long.

No doubt some idiot will claim Digard was a good signing.

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 14:40
the eindhoven squad myth

There are 2 people i blame for our relegation, mido and alves

they were our biggest outlays in terms of wages and transfer fees, and they crippled us with there stinking attitude and non performance

i dont think southgate was helped , or the club was helped by these 2 wasters

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 22/11/2009 14:40
the eindhoven squad myth

The only true measure in terms of how much money he had at his disposal is the balance sheet and over the term of his management he didn't have a great deal of money at all, but then the money he did was largely wasted.

Shoot Posted on 22/11/2009 14:41
the eindhoven squad myth

southgate had enough money and time to prove if he was going to be good manager. he didnt seem to progress as a manager. he lost the support of the big players that thought that we where going backwards. we needed to keep the big players and that is where he ultimately failed


erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:41
the eindhoven squad myth

Jonny_Ingbar-But then name me a manger who hasn't wasted money - I cant think of a single one.

Every manager has wasted money, no doubt about it, but you're going on that southgate is not to blame for the predicament we are in, when in fact he IS to blame

Space_Face Posted on 22/11/2009 14:44
the eindhoven squad myth

Yes, any sympathy about financial restraints largely disappears when you consider he spent over £20m in 2008 on Hoyte, Alves, Digard, Emnes.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:44
the eindhoven squad myth

2 players FHS

Emnes was bought and waited till the final week to start a full game, Diggard?, Hoyte FHS,Bates CM, the GK situation.

Answer me this, if we were as bad as you're making out (finacialy)WHY did we pay £3M for Emnes and then state he was for the future

The man was clueless, end of

Senor_Chester Posted on 22/11/2009 14:44
the eindhoven squad myth

"There are 2 people i blame for our relegation, mido and alves"

If only we knew Mido had a stinking attitude before we signed him, still we did have a manager with a good track record of dealing with big players though didn't we?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 22/11/2009 14:46
the eindhoven squad myth

I agree, but the point I'm making is that his mistakes were all the more accentuated because of his limited funds.

Wenger, Ferguson and the like can waste £m's without suffering in the same way.

Even SMAC wasted money but was given more cash to go out and buy replacements for the players he had already wasted money on.

Senor_Chester Posted on 22/11/2009 14:48
the eindhoven squad myth

I don't recall Mclaren buying 3 million pound players to sit them on the bench though. It makes it worse as the funds were limited also. Madness.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 14:48
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, you're just making things up and changing history.

A third of the wage bill was cut? Untrue.

We replaced £60K a week strikers with £15K? Again untrue.

The fact is that with about 8 games to go we were comfortable enough in the league to be able to play our reserves for the most part. Those reserves still did a better job than Southgate's team last season would have. We gave up in the league and ended up 14th to concentrate on the cups.

This overage, overpaid squad got Southgate through his first two seasons before he finally got his own squad together. It was relegated.

Southgate bought and paid for the most expensive strikeforce in the club's history. We scored less goals than any team in the country. Blame Alves and Mido if you like but who signed them? Southgate did.

No money? he spent a boatload on sub-standard players that were replacing those overpaid, overage players you bemoan. He has set us back 10 years.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:51
the eindhoven squad myth

Gareth Southgate IS the reason we are an average championship team, no two ways about it.

Buying players, poor
Team selection, poor
Substitutions, very poor
Tactics, poor
Motivation, well non excistence

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 22/11/2009 14:51
the eindhoven squad myth

"I don't recall Mclaren buying 3 million pound players to sit them on the bench though. It makes it worse as the funds were limited also. Madness."

No, but I do remember him spunkking £9m on a centre forward only to be given a fortune to go and replace him with Yakubu & Viduka.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 14:53
the eindhoven squad myth

Yak, Maccarone and Viduka - cost the club less, in overall terms, than Alves, Emnes and Mido.

Senor_Chester Posted on 22/11/2009 14:53
the eindhoven squad myth

I didn't disagree with that Johnny.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 14:54
the eindhoven squad myth

Adi_Dem[^]100%correct

I think the Dude is either Gareth or his brother, he can only see the good points of his management, did he have any

I do know that when the big games came around, he and the Boro were found lacking, heartless in every one of em

Jimmythemoonlight Posted on 22/11/2009 14:59
the eindhoven squad myth

That Russian bloke at Chelsea could have funded Southgate with his billions and we would have still have a XXXXXX team.The bloke was useless

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 15:01
the eindhoven squad myth

'Yak, Maccarone and Viduka - cost the club less, in overall terms, than Alves, Emnes and Mido'


utter guess work, especially as boro still own the playing rights to emnes and mido, so all you can say is minus 7 million for alves

yakubu made about 5 million, maccarone down 8 million, viduka minus 5 million

hmmmmm, not much in it, if anything with wages


erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 15:07
the eindhoven squad myth

McLaren did waste millions, but, did he get us relegated Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I know this sounds silly but under McLaren we actually WON a trophy played in europe and went another cup final, as well as semi finals,

Southgate could and probably should of won us the facup, but guess what he and HIS team bottled it, as they did the following season, or was that McLarens fault

Dude just get over Gareth going, maybe he'll be able to manage a northern league team in the near future, yea he was that good 2 lower league posts have been filled without him been appointed

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 15:11
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]you have an unhealthy obsession with me and my unyielding love for southgate, im just pointing out facts mate thats all

facts

Senor_Chester Posted on 22/11/2009 15:15
the eindhoven squad myth

Frankly dude I'm surprised people (myself included) even offer you a response to your posts.

Your the boards angry clown.

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 15:25
the eindhoven squad myth

He's gotta be Gareth or some relation to him!
Lets see where Southgate's next job is and how he does.
Like someone said it shows how highly thought of he is when Peterborough and Brighton didnt want him.
[cr]

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 15:29
the eindhoven squad myth

Utter guesswork but your nonsense in the opening post is accurate is it?

If there isn't much in it in terms of cost, as you say, then that just proves exactly what I'm saying.

Space_Face Posted on 22/11/2009 15:31
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, are you arguing that Gareth is as good a manager as Smac?

KobeB Posted on 22/11/2009 15:32
the eindhoven squad myth

mark viduka scored about 25 goals for us in 3 years and cost us about 15 million, brilliant, how could you gareth
.......
Yet he bought a striker for 13 mill who scored even less?

There are 2 people i blame for our relegation, mido and alves
................

Er... Southgate was a MANAGER. Ever heard of MANAGING players?

just a thought like...

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 22/11/2009 15:33
the eindhoven squad myth

The Uefa final team was so good they failed to qualify for Europe. That probably was where the cut backs started from.

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 15:34
the eindhoven squad myth

People should just ignore his posts as he talks utter XXXXXXe.

I cant believe that anyone who actually goes to the games could be happy with Southgate's time in charge.

Im starting to think the Dude is a mackam/geordie on here to wind people up.

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 15:34
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]proves what exactly, that mclaren got better strikers in cos he was allowed to pay them more

i bet viduka was on more than alves, emnes and mido combined


oh sorry, you only think transfer fees are relevant and not wages, my mistake

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 15:38
the eindhoven squad myth

We didnt qualify for europe but we still had a strong enough team to keep well away from the bottom.

Don't forget the crop of youngsters that Southgate inherited. how many of them did he get the best out of?

Most of the promising kids have never fullfilled their potential.

redwurzel Posted on 22/11/2009 15:42
the eindhoven squad myth

2005/6 was nicknamed Dad's Army - it had alot of 30 plus players who you would have expected to have retired by now. The Wages bill was very high

We played more games than any other team outside the top 4 and our league form was affected - example 11 kids at Fulham away that season. The league was not a priority beyond surviving. Would you have swapped 10th for a UEFA Cup appearence?

The wage bill was significantly cut back under Southgate to the point where our wage bill last season at £31m (Lamb's figure) was the smallest or one of the cheapest in the Division. Wages were shooting up and we could not keep up. We played matches last year where the bench were all teenagers. We were out bid by Wigan for Ben Watson, in fact Crystal Palace offered him more to stay there than we offered (£16k/week).

I do feel Southgate was short changed financially, but would say he didn't do the best with his resources, although did he buy Alves or was he bought for him?

I do think Gibbo and Lamb have to hold their hands up and say they could have behaved better, but they were under pressure from the banks to pay most of the £93m back and I think that became there may concern from around May 2008. I think it was wrong of them to make a current player manager with no experience in the toughest league in the world and expect him to super astute and fantastic wheeler dealer.

My feeling is that GS1 will do a decent job for another club, but reach Lennie Lawrence possibly Bruce Rioch standard.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 22/11/2009 15:43
the eindhoven squad myth

Only downing progressed at this club. The rest of our youth line up end up finding their level somewhere else. Only Downing and Cattermole spring to mind who have gone on to better things.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 22/11/2009 15:43
the eindhoven squad myth

"i bet viduka was on more than alves, emnes and mido combined"

I bet not.

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 15:43
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude- Is that the same Viduka that saved us from relegation in GS 1st season with his goals?

Woodgate, Yak and Luke Young could see what was coming with that clown in charge

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 15:47
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude it seems that we all have an obsession with your utter crap, re strachan is poor and southgate was good

When Southgate took over we still had the basis of McLarens team,season by season he dismantled it till in the end when we kicked off v Spurs apart from Jones that team was 'judge me on MY team'southgates.

And what a shambles it was, infact it was that bad he swept aside ALL Bobby Murdochs poor records,

In BM defence he had the entire midfield sold before a ball was kicked, were as southgate removed the older players for youth, his words not mine.

Gareth the worst manager ever in our history.

I think Dude you are on a wind up

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 15:47
the eindhoven squad myth

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 22/11/2009 15:43
the eindhoven squad myth
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Only downing progressed at this club. The rest of our youth line up end up finding their level somewhere else. Only Downing and Cattermole spring to mind who have gone on to better things.

Id have Cattermole and James Morrison finding their level with us at the moment.

red_shamrock Posted on 22/11/2009 15:48
the eindhoven squad myth

When all comes to all we never really got the best out of Viduka..he never played enough, when he did and was on form he was brilliant IMHO.

Mido decent player but didnt give a monkeys by the looks of things..bolloxed Southgate and us up.
Alves for me was mismanaged...Southgate buggered his confidence up, he made some strange decisions with him..thats just my opinion.

Southgate made some strange Team selections which were questionable a lot of times, he had a good run which give him in IMHO a fair crack of the whip. ( butyou never know what goes on behind closed doors).

Strachan was a strange appointment, I never really followed his career as a manager, but Gibbo must have, So far and I know its early days I have seen no improvement.

Signing Kitson who wont stay here anyhow is a weird thing to do for a number of reasons.

The Eindhoven squad got to the final of the competition ..Id have took that over relegation, Maybe its about experiences for me as a supporter[:D]

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 15:54
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, the clue was when I posted "in overall terms", which was a reference to both transfer fees and wages.

You may want to bet that Viduka was on more than those three combined. You'd lose your money though, particularly since Leeds picked up a big chunk of Viduka's wages.

You confirmed, categorically, that there wasn't much difference in terms of cost to the club between the three McClaren strikers and the three Southgate strikers. That is what you posted.

Wurzel - again point by point:

2005/6 was nicknamed Dad's Army - it had alot of 30 plus players who you would have expected to have retired by now. The Wages bill was very high

It wasn't as high as you would have expected and the cost was higher because we had needed a bigger squad - we were in Europe and played a record number of games. How many players did Southgate HAVE to get rid of in that first season? Himself, Parlour, Ugo, Jimmy? Not many more.

We played more games than any other team outside the top 4 and our league form was affected - example 11 kids at Fulham away that season. The league was not a priority beyond surviving. Would you have swapped 10th for a UEFA Cup appearence?

Exactly right.

The wage bill was significantly cut back under Southgate to the point where our wage bill last season at £31m (Lamb's figure) was the smallest or one of the cheapest in the Division. Wages were shooting up and we could not keep up. We played matches last year where the bench were all teenagers. We were out bid by Wigan for Ben Watson, in fact Crystal Palace offered him more to stay there than we offered (£16k/week).

The cuts weren't as significant as many think. We still had more than enough, financially, to stay up comfortably - that's the point for me.

I do feel Southgate was short changed financially, but would say he didn't do the best with his resources, although did he buy Alves or was he bought for him?

I don't think he was short changed. Of course spending reduced. That's obvious. However, it wasn't this huge change that many believe it was. He basically wasted the money he had. That's why we went down. Alves was bought by Southgate, any suggestion otherwise is fantasy.

I do think Gibbo and Lamb have to hold their hands up and say they could have behaved better, but they were under pressure from the banks to pay most of the £93m back and I think that became there may concern from around May 2008. I think it was wrong of them to make a current player manager with no experience in the toughest league in the world and expect him to super astute and fantastic wheeler dealer.

Not true. The banks weren't the source of any pressure. The vast majority of the debt was paper debt owed to the holding company, which Gibson completely restructured in March 2007 anyway. Cost cutting began under McClaren in actual fact.

Hercules Posted on 22/11/2009 15:55
the eindhoven squad myth

I've just began my dissertation on MFC and their financial situation. I had the Deloitte Annual Football Finance review delivered last week and it has wage totals etc upto the 2007/8 season.

Suprisingly, our wages stayed pretty much the same in Southgates 1st season, dropped £4m in his second and I would guess that they dropped further in his 3rd. This is due to losing Boateng(£40kpw), Cattermole(£15kpw), Rochemback(£30kpw), Schwarzer(£40kpw) and Young(£30kpw) but only being able to replace them with Digard(£20kpw), Hoyte(£20kpw) and Emnes(£15kpw). So thats another £5m per annum if my estimates are correct.

Another thing to note, is our ranking in the wage table. Off the top of my head, in his first season we were about 12th in the table but in his second we were the 16th highest wage payers. I'd imagine that in the 3rd season we were in the bottom 3.

According to a recent study, a clubs league position and their wage bill has a correlation of over 90%. So as bad as Southgate was(he made some shocking buys and some shocking selection) he isn't as bad as some of you make out.

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 15:57
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]'ou may want to bet that Viduka was on more than those three combined. You'd lose your money though, particularly since Leeds picked up a big chunk of Viduka's wages.'


another guess, that smacks of, 'i know for a fact'

also adi, stop pretending your some omnipotent warlord when it comes to just knowing about club finance more than anybody else, more guessing

change your name to adi guess



erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:00
the eindhoven squad myth

Adi_Dem I think we better give up here, we will never convince the Ra Ra that southgate put us where we are today, it's either McLarens fault or Strachans, 'i know for a fact'

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 16:00
the eindhoven squad myth

He is.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 16:00
the eindhoven squad myth

It's not a guess at all Dude. It's a well reported fact actually.

We weren't in the bottom three Hercules and you fail to refer to the wages of the likes of Mido, Alves, Tuncay etc.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/11/2009 16:03
the eindhoven squad myth

Also, those individual wage figures are incorrect.

The_Dude Posted on 22/11/2009 16:04
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]where is this well reported fact, in your imagination, cos it isnt in the real world

KobeB Posted on 22/11/2009 16:05
the eindhoven squad myth

Where did i say wages don't matter?

Making things up now are you?


Hercules Posted on 22/11/2009 16:07
the eindhoven squad myth

IF my estimates are correct(feel free to offer their true wages if you know them) then that is £5m off the annual wage bill. I think that would likely have put us in the bottom 3 or very close to it. We would certainly have been no higher than we were the previous season(16th).

The 3 players you mention were at the club already so their wages would have been included in the previous years wage total and would not have any effect on the wage bill in Southgates 3rd season.

OK, you obviously know what the individual players wages were so tell me what the difference in wages of the players that came in and those that went out is. Let me guess, Emnes, Hoyte and Digard are on more than Young, Schwarzer, Boateng, Rochemback and Cattermole were on?

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 16:08
the eindhoven squad myth

Hasselbaink or Lee Dong Gook,
Viduka or Alves,
Yak or Mido
Boateng or Bates,
Cattermole or Digard,
Shawky or Rochamback,
Young or Hoyte,

Thats without mentioning the young, hungry and pacey strikers- Aliadiere and Emnes.

[cr]

KobeB Posted on 22/11/2009 16:11
the eindhoven squad myth

I love it how the dude slams Adi for 'guessing' yet he 'guesses' himself to suit his own argument.

Wind up merchant? Can't be anything but really...

bear66 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:11
the eindhoven squad myth

Yesterday confirmed again how much Emnes has been part of a match-winning formation. Pace is the only attribute which our squad has that can get us out of this league.

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 16:15
the eindhoven squad myth

Whats the point in having pace as a striker if you cant shoot?
Might as well sign Linford Christie.

bear66 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:19
the eindhoven squad myth

err team game - player pulls defence apart . . . defence in bits . . . Johnson strolls in and scores . . simple game really and we're competing for a promotion spot (although yesterday shows how wrong you can get it with plodders up front and nothing behind - we could be firther than the top than the bottom tommorrow - another 10 games and the relegation battle will be on)

uwefuchs Posted on 22/11/2009 16:22
the eindhoven squad myth

You should be in charge, sounds easy!

Think Strachen wants someone up front who can hold the ball up. Like he said if you dont retain possesion your inviting pressure.

Our pacey players Ali and Emnes are simply not good enough.

bear66 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:25
the eindhoven squad myth

I think his comments about retaining possession was through all our play not just long ball to hopeless front man . . . I thought we did that well in the first half but missed the defence splitting runs to make the most of it.

redwurzel Posted on 22/11/2009 16:37
the eindhoven squad myth

Hercules your figures back up what I have written, that our wages in relative times significantly dropped. I would put money we were in the bottom 3 payers last year.

Your figues probably don't include backroom staff which again would put us very low.

For us to finish 11th 2007/8? and 6th round FAC was a good achievement with a wage bill 16th.

Its nice to have some facts to go on, rather than opinions.

AD - In the Summer and early part of 2006, Queudrue, Nemeth, Doriva, JFH, Job, Xavier, Reizeger left plus Southgate and Cooper retired. Reducing the size of the squad and the age began then and has continued since, until very recently.

sasboro1 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:40
the eindhoven squad myth

anyone remember keith lamb saying that mclaren halved the wage bill from Robson. They seem to say this sort of stuff with every manager

FrozenHorse Posted on 22/11/2009 16:40
the eindhoven squad myth

"We sacrificed a lot of league games during the run to the final."

Correct; we for the last third of that season we played weakend teams in league matches and concentrated on the FA and UEFA cups. Remember the match at Fulham when we played the youth team?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 22/11/2009 16:55
the eindhoven squad myth

'that squad that got to the eufa final is vastly overrated on here'

The Dude. Absolutley spot on.

Southgate then dismembered an average team, replacing each member with a player of poorer quality whilst managing to keep us in debt.





bear66 Posted on 22/11/2009 16:59
the eindhoven squad myth

I thought the debt had been cleared before Strachan arrived . . . . . .

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 22/11/2009 17:06
the eindhoven squad myth

Sorry Bear, Im talking about the original bunch of rubbish he brought in.

O'Neil, Arca, Aliadiere, Mido, Shawky, Alves, Tuncay etc.

None of them could have got into that mediocre side of 2006.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 17:07
the eindhoven squad myth

Corcaigh_ you forgot to mention DGL

Anubis Posted on 22/11/2009 17:09
the eindhoven squad myth

"We sacrificed a lot of league games during the run to the final"

Thats because we could, the bottom 3 were particularly bad that season 35 points would have been enough to survive.

Also we were so far off qualifying for Europe, I think we ended up 20 points short of a European place.

We finished 14th above Man City and Aston Villa. 3 years certainly is a long time in Football.

red_shamrock Posted on 22/11/2009 17:36
the eindhoven squad myth

Lots of good debate on this thread some good Boro fans.

But I ask you a question "The Eindhoven Squad" was the end result worth it.. not the defeat but appearing in the final and the Manner in which we a achieved it....AS A BORO FAN.


Macaroni cost us a lot of money and as a point of History a game you attended, was his fee worth while it just to witness the two goals that happened QF SF.

I have to say yes.

erimus74 Posted on 22/11/2009 17:39
the eindhoven squad myth

Ask yourself this red_shamrock, will you ever witness anything like those games in your life again.

The answer will probably be NO.

red_shamrock Posted on 22/11/2009 17:45
the eindhoven squad myth

Both you and I and other Boro fans who have had some Humiliating times regardless of our love of Middlesbrough FC.

You can name them if you like.

We walked away full of hell heartbroken with dreams that were so far away it was untrue.

From 86 we havent looked back and I wouldnt swap a minute.

redwurzel Posted on 22/11/2009 17:48
the eindhoven squad myth

cc

A rich man's rubbish - is a poor man's treasure (i.e. rubbish is a relative term).

I thought Tuncay was a star at Euro 2008, but he is rubbish to you?

For me he is a decent player, but is a not a natural goalscorer at Premiership level.

I think its more difficult for a young and experienced manager to get the full respect of Pros - goes back to original appointment mistake.

The board was overrun with people wanting a young manager (Mowbray, Southgate in 2006) and again recently (Darren Ferguson, Martinez, Ince). I have been shot down for suggesting Sam Alladyce in 2006 and Gary Johnson recently.

Managers like wine need a bit of time to mature. Most peak in their 50s or 10/15 years into their career.

Happy Posted on 22/11/2009 18:09
the eindhoven squad myth

That squad had two things that we now lack.

a midfield - boateng/cattermole/rokemback

but more importantly firepower:
JFH/Vid/Yak/macca/Christie/graham

when you can take yak and vid off the bench in the 70th minute it frightens teams

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 22/11/2009 19:08
the eindhoven squad myth

We sacrificed most of the run in to rest players for the FA Cup and Uefa Cup and only finished about 6 points off 8th place, had we had a full strength team we'd probably have finished around where we did the previous season. Southgate didn't have those distractions in his first season, he had the same squad, Yak and Viduka were still up front, he only moved Jimmy on.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time but we got worse and worse.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 22/11/2009 20:25
the eindhoven squad myth

When I was five I was a right contrary bugger.

Esteban Posted on 22/11/2009 20:32
the eindhoven squad myth

We're crap now. Face it.

redwurzel Posted on 23/11/2009 01:40
the eindhoven squad myth

We have replaced GS1 as centre half and captain with DW - thats a very big difference too.

GS1 was a rock from when he came to when he stopped playing.

Dibzzz Posted on 23/11/2009 01:51
the eindhoven squad myth

If this current squad get us to a UEFA Cup final then you might have a point.

JLinardi Posted on 23/11/2009 04:21
the eindhoven squad myth

Another reason we went in the shyte financially was because we had the older players (in the UEFA cup season) such as Boateng, SOuthgate, Viduka, Parlour, JFH who we outlayed probably a huge amount of money on but got only 1m back through Boatengs transfer fee. So it was basically (transfer fees and wages) about 25m written off and nothing back through fees because of the players ages.

WHat SOuthgate said he would do was to reduce the average age of the team. But I think he took this too far to the extreme, relying too much on our youth set up and completely neglecting experience. In the end Riggott was our oldest player and that was by a longway until Coyne came in. The thinking behind this was that these young players would have a sell on value.

As I said before SOuthgates biggest failing was the players he brought in. The only defence he could have was that they wernt his 1st choice targets so we had to settle for 2nd best. WHich is viable if we couldnt afford the better players wages.

WHat we dont know is how influential Gibbo and Lamb were in the selling of players. Did GS really want to let go of players like Luke young and Rochemback?

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 08:24
the eindhoven squad myth

dont forget mendieta linardi, he was the most expensive mistake ever, he must have been on an amazing contract

Hercules Posted on 23/11/2009 08:52
the eindhoven squad myth

jlinardi, don't you think that the quality of replacements he was able to bring in was severely limited due to the financial restrictions he was working under?

The_same_as_before Posted on 23/11/2009 08:59
the eindhoven squad myth

Can someone explain to me one thing that Southgate did well in his tenure?


Hercules Posted on 23/11/2009 09:01
the eindhoven squad myth

He made Julio Arca actually look like a footballer for about 4 months.

Don_the_Jeweller Posted on 23/11/2009 09:31
the eindhoven squad myth

I can see the Dude now sat in his bedroom decked out in Boro wall paper, Boro curtains & bed spread typing away i will not have anything said against my club......

Fu*king @rsehole.......

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 09:56
the eindhoven squad myth

'I can see the Dude now sat in his bedroom decked out in Boro wall paper, Boro curtains & bed spread typing away i will not have anything said against my club......'


really, apart from the thread, which is about me being critical of the ability of the eindhoven squad, yeh, a good example of me not having anything bad to say about my club

[rle](add pointless teesside gonger insult here)



JLinardi Posted on 23/11/2009 10:01
the eindhoven squad myth

Hercules, please re-read my post, specifically the 3rd paragraph.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 10:05
the eindhoven squad myth

there is no way southgate wanted rid of young, and the same probably for rochemback, and i also agree when teams like wigan pay more wages (ie watson) then i would imagine southgate couldnt get anywhere near his first choices in

uwefuchs Posted on 23/11/2009 10:18
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude- a lot of people have the same argument that Southgate didnt wanna buy or sell certain players.

For me tho if he was happy for people to buy and sell his players, he's just daft for letting it go on.
It was his reputation on the line not Lamb or Gibsons.

In which case he should have walked out, which he didnt so he carrys the can IMO.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 10:32
the eindhoven squad myth

It's just a smokescreen made up by his apologists.

He was responsible for selling those players. He ultimately made those decisions in the same way that previous managers had.

He didn't like the lifestyles of Morrison, Cattermole, Rochemback and even Woodgate and so decided to get rid of them rather than manage them. To add insult to injury, once he had sold them, he replaced them with vastly inferior players. We all now know where you end up when you do that.

uwefuchs Posted on 23/11/2009 10:38
the eindhoven squad myth

Don't think there was ever a problem with Morrison's lifestyle Adi.
He was always a pretty professional lad as far as im aware.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 10:44
the eindhoven squad myth

Actually, you're right - it was his attitude in training that they had a falling out about, culminating in Southgate grabbing him and shoving him against a wall at Hurworth.

Pinkers Posted on 23/11/2009 10:48
the eindhoven squad myth

I can't resist this bait.

'mark viduka scored about 25 goals for us in 3 years and cost us about 15 million
'

Erm, that's clearly completely untrue isn't it? Viduka scored 42 goals for Boro, after spending most of his first season injured. It was widely documented when he signed that Leeds would be paying part of his wages, and as Adi has proven time and again he actually DOES have some inside knowledge and he agrees with this, you're really just making yourself look (even) more stupid.

Still I'm sure you sure if you jump up and down a bit more and go really red in the face your made-up stuff will become reality.

Why spend your time slagging people off for stating their opinions yet constantly spout made up guff, without even trying to make the stats/facts back it up? Bizarre.

Having said that, you're highly amusing. Carry on. [^]




Link: Count em.

uwefuchs Posted on 23/11/2009 10:51
the eindhoven squad myth

Ha Ha, just trying to picture that!

Bet he got Cooper to hold Morrisons hands behind his back before he pushed him!

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 10:54
the eindhoven squad myth

where it went wrong under southgate was blowing all that cash on alves. we could have got a striker for less than half that who would have done a job. then spend the remaining 7-8m on a couple of attack minded midfielders. i mean, someone like nolan only cost about 4m. Stikers was always southgates achilies heal. smac and robson did pretty good with strikers overall. southgate was terrible. i think its the main reason why were ended up getting relegated.

plazmuh Posted on 23/11/2009 11:03
the eindhoven squad myth

FAO uwefuchs
It doesn,t matter what anyone thinks of s/gate You all need to ask yourselves who appointed him,And when Everyone knew was not up to the task why didn,t he just sack the guy.
Yep Mr Gibson its down to you and this lot are to afraid to say it.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 23/11/2009 11:04
the eindhoven squad myth

I thought he'd be worshipping Viduka, without him his God Southgate would have had us relegated in his 1st season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 11:09
the eindhoven squad myth

I agree to an extent there sas. However, I think at that point we were all pretty happy with the Alves signing. I think the problem was more about the imbalance he then went on to create.

Having spent all that money on Alves, the following summer he effectively gutted our midfield and it hasn't recovered since. Instead of replacing Rocky, Boateng and Cattermole with players of equal quality he signed a project (for more than we signed Rocky for) to play on the right with GON moving inside only to find out that Emnes was actually a striker, he then signed Digard who has been nothing short of a disaster and whose injury record prior to his signing should have set alarm bells ringing and that was it.

Had he planned properly then perhaps he shouldn't have spent so much on Alves and should have spent the £8m that he spent on the midfield differently.

I agree - at that point we had all our eggs in the Alves basket and it all went downhill from there.

£20m on Mido and Alves backfired badly.

uwefuchs Posted on 23/11/2009 11:11
the eindhoven squad myth

plazmuh- Your right Mr Gibson is as much to blame for where we are now.

What can we do about that now, nothing?

He aint leaving and i wouldnt want him to unless there is a billionaire Boro fan waiting to take over.

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 11:12
the eindhoven squad myth

if you have money to burn then £12m on alves isnt too much a risk but if most of your budget is going on him it was a massive risk. with some decent scouting and common sense we could have got 3 steady players for that £12m.

southgate's track record with strikers was abysmal. mido,alves,aliadiere,emnes,folan,king,dgl. maybe him and the coaches didnt have a clue how to coach them.

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 11:16
the eindhoven squad myth

It is Gibson's responsibility, but the fact is that Southgate, as bad as he was, would only have had to make a couple less mistakes and we'd still have been in the Premier League.

Everyone makes bad individual signings so I'm not going to jump all over individual signings like Alves, especially as the main problem is the fee rather than the player.

It's strategic decisions like not replacing Boateng, Cattermole and Rochemback with at least three players where I feel he was most culpable.

They made 83 league appearances between them in Southgate's second season.

If you are going to let them go, you need a plan and I don't think Gareth had one. He signed a player in Digard who had only played 16 games the previous season, so it can be no great shock that he was missing for a large part of the season.

That means you had a weakened area in the team, that most of us had already identified as weak anyway.

Even if Digard was fit and playing every game, you're still looking at nearly 50 additional appearances to be made by those players who were already with us.

It was never going to happen and it doesn't take a tactical genius to see that; just someone who can count.

Sure, there were cuts to be made but you don't buy Project Emnes in that case.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 11:25
the eindhoven squad myth

Could not agree more captain.

I think that the notion that finance relegated us, used by many as a defence to Southgate, isn't right. However, if we were on a tight budget it actually makes him more culpable rather than less.

Southgate, if he was on a tight budget, put a huge chunk of that budget into one player before gutting the weakest area of our team and spending £8m on a crock and a project.

That, in a nutshell, was why we went down. Even if he had bought 3 decent Premiership players in the midfield instead of Emnes and Digard we'd have stayed up in my view. Even easier - simply keep two of the three he let go and we'd probably have been OK.

Hercules Posted on 23/11/2009 11:45
the eindhoven squad myth

Nice to see your head above the parapet again Adi.

Here are some FACT's for you.

In Southgates second season we were the 16th highest wage spenders in the Premier League.

Then that summer the wages of Young, Schwarzer, Rochemback, Boateng, Mendieta and Cattermole were removed from the wage bill.

The wages of Hoyte, Digard and Emnes were added to the wage bill.

In my opinion the wage bill would have dropped about £5m from 1 season to the next. You have told me I am wrong but offered no opinion of your own or evidence to contradict my opinion.

It is also my opinion that this would have put us in the 3 lowest wage spenders in the PL that season. Again, correct me (and at least try to prove it) if I'm wrong.

Another fact. In a recent study evidence was presented to show that there is +90% correlation between league position and wage bill.

You can point to individual errors from numerous parties but the overriding reason for our relegation is the lack of money available.

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 11:47
the eindhoven squad myth

where have you got these "facts" and stats from?

if wages determines league position then why are we not in the top5 and ahead of teams like preston?

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 11:49
the eindhoven squad myth

We got relegated because we didn't hold onto our lead at Hull.


uwefuchs Posted on 23/11/2009 11:50
the eindhoven squad myth

Hercules- which parts of your post are facts?

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 12:15
the eindhoven squad myth

What's this head above the parapet nonsense Hercules. I will always directly answer anything you might want to ask. You seem upset or annoyed that I hold a different view on things. I'm sorry about that but I can't change it.

A major re-structuring took place in March 2007 in terms of debt, shareholding and a number of other things. The clubs annual accounts that year revealed an annual wage bill of circa £28m, a rise from the previous year. In 07/08 our wage bill sat at £34.8m

In 2007 we had a £93m debt but £69m of that debt was loaned from the Gibson-O’Neill Company leaving a balance of circa £24m owed to lenders.

We have long since been towards the lower end of the Premiership wages league. It's not a new phenomenon that only Gareth had to contend with. Of course money had an impact, no-one is arguing otherwise. However, I have said before that you can't divorce wages from transfer fees. The club generally pays transfer fees over the life of a player's contract and so the overall cost to the club is looked at rather than just the salaries. On that basis huge fees like the one for Alves ought to be taken into account too.

The only thing I said was inaccurate was the individual earnings of those players, which it is.

The point I keep coming back to is this. We did not go down because of a lack of money. We went down because what money we did have was poorly invested by our manager.


sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 12:17
the eindhoven squad myth

adi_dem, you know inside info. do you know why gibson recently resigned as a director of bulkhaul and any truth in the gossip he is looking to move to jersey?

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 23/11/2009 12:22
the eindhoven squad myth

Would it be fair to say there wasn't much new money invested, by that I mean money which did not come from incoming transfer fees.
Luke Young and Cattermole money paid for Digard and Emnes. Yak for Alves etc...

Not alot of new money was available when other clubs were still gambling and spending new money. Without increasing our funds we were always going to stand still or go backwards.

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 12:33
the eindhoven squad myth

Gibson already has his new place in Jersey.

Ironically he went to all that trouble and ended up with a bloke from Stokesley as his neighbour.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 12:34
the eindhoven squad myth

I honestly don't know sas. It's the first I've heard about it.

Jonny - I don't go along with that at all. You could take that, logically, back as far as you like. Juninho, through Merson, through Brian Deane, through Boksic etc etc.

I think there is a very simple way to look at things. During Southgate's tenure there are certain players he had the benefit of that stayed with the club, having been there on the day he started, right through until relegation.

They are Jones, Riggot, Poggy, Taylor, McMahon, Wheater, Bates, Hines, Downing, Johnson, Walker and whoever else from the academy.

Let's say that that is the base from which he had to work as a starting point and then add what he had available to him in the season we got relegated the likes of Hoyte, Huth, GON, Arca, Emnes, Aliadiere, Mido, Alves, Tuncay, Digard, Shawky which were effectively 'his' additions.

The cost of those additions i.e. what he actually spent on them to add to the base that was constant, was £48.1m in transfer fees.

The question then becomes, for me, was that £48.1m plus wages a sound investment on Southgate's part or could he have spent it better?

In my view that is the reason we went down.

zorro_mfc Posted on 23/11/2009 12:49
the eindhoven squad myth

I see the dude is stil acting As gareth pr man a cross between my magoo and goebels, mido may have had a bad attitude ( hey after leaving spurs Ajax celta Vigo and Roma under a cloud who knew he would have an attitude problem) but the fact is the moment gareth shipped him out to a delegation rival he was one if not our top scorer

JonSina Posted on 23/11/2009 13:09
the eindhoven squad myth

Am I imagining it or did Keith Lamb not state that Sothgate only bought Mido and all the rest were bought by "whomever"
Some of them he hadnt even seen play except on video (i.e. Alves)

Lets face it Southgate was a yes man with very little power at the club, all the midfield were sold from under him and he was left to pick up the pieces. Yes I'm glad he's gone, but by no means was it all his fault.

I can imagine the conversation now:
Lamb:
"Gareth, do you mind if we get rid of Cattermole, Boateng and Rochembach this close season and get these untried lads Digard and Emnes in to replace them?"

Gareth:
"That could be a bit disastrou..."

Keith:
"Yes then, thats settled, onwards to European glory with the team the supporters deserve"

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 13:19
the eindhoven squad myth

You're imagining it.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 14:49
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]oh, ive checked your stats pinkers, and i was incorrect

he only scored 24 league goals in 3 years and not 25 like i thought

silly me

thats 8 league goals a season, fantastic

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 14:57
the eindhoven squad myth

It was 26 league goals in about 77 league appearances, which equates to two Premiership seasons or 13 goals a season, which in the top division is a good record, particularly with what else he brought to the team.

Space_Face Posted on 23/11/2009 15:00
the eindhoven squad myth

26 in 56 starts (+16 sub appearances).

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:02
the eindhoven squad myth

Oh dear Dude, your wafer thin argument evaporates once again!

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:02
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]and how many did he score when he left and how many games did he play, when we refused to give him a 9 million quid 3 year contract

he was a talented player no doubt, but the club done a good thing getting rid, he seemed to miraculously get fit near the end of his time here, as he did with the geordies as well, seen as how this thread is about the brilliant superfit eindhoven squad, i find it comforting to know viduka was proven to be a waste of money in the end, and would have made boro even worse by his 60k a week injury table performances

so how does that make my argument wafer thin, unless your crystal ball tells you if he had stayed he would have suddenyl got super fit and never got injured

he was a crock, end of, fact

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:06
the eindhoven squad myth

'It was 26 league goals in about 77 league appearances, which equates to two Premiership seasons or 13 goals a season, which in the top division is a good record, particularly with what else he brought to the team.'

except that it was over 3 seasons not 2, now that is wafer thin, convieniently dismissing months out injured as not relevent

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:08
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, you're squirming now. I find it difficult to take you seriously to be honest.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:14
the eindhoven squad myth

how many games and goals did super fit and brilliant viduka score for the geordies in the 2 years they paid him 8 million pounds?

not that you'll answer, as it will contradict your views on him

thanks



Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:17
the eindhoven squad myth

In what way will it contradict anything? He scored next to none for Newcastle. Please tell me the point you are trying to make regarding Viduka and I will respond to it.

Space_Face Posted on 23/11/2009 15:17
the eindhoven squad myth

That's pretty irrelevant isn't it?

So in 2 days Dude has said Gareth is a better manager than Steve Maclaren & Viduka was not a quality striker for us.

Anyway, if you want to discuss Viduka's form at other clubs I'll give you 162 goals in 319 career starts.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:21
the eindhoven squad myth

the thread is about the decimation and change of the squad from eindhoven, people criticising the club for changing the squad, slagging the managment off for not keeping viduka and other players or getting players of similiar standard for the same wages, its obvious we could no longer sustain the wage bill for ageing players who are fit 4 months in a year

you adi are a prime example, only if you were in charge at that time, we would be in the blue square, as your concepts on football are based around guessing and retrospective criticism

Space_Face Posted on 23/11/2009 15:23
the eindhoven squad myth

I'm sure the cutting of the wage bill was always going to have an impact but a proper manager wouldn't have wasted £20m on Alves, Hoyte, Digard, Emnes and thought playing average defenders in central midfield would see us safe.

red_shamrock Posted on 23/11/2009 15:25
the eindhoven squad myth

Viduka great player when he played, didnt play enough IMHO.
To give him another contract at the time would have been silly, think about it stands to reason.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:27
the eindhoven squad myth

Firstly, I have posted on this thread that I didn't think anyone has ever suggested that it was a magical squad full of world class players as you suggested in the originating post. I challenged you to point out where that had been said which you have since ignored.

It wasn't a world class squad but it was one of the best we've ever had and one that Southgate took 3 years to destroy. I'm not quite sure how that qualifies as guesswork or retrospective criticism, particularly given that I criticised Southgate throughout his reign.

I have never slagged Southgate off for not retaining Viduka. It wasn't his fault that we didn't and I don't think it was the wrong decision to let him go.

What I have suggested in this thread is that Southgate wasn't asked to replace, for example, a £60K striker for a £15K striker because Viduka was never on £60K and neither Alves nor Mido were on £15K. I criticise Southgate for spending more money in transfer fees on strikers than the club ever has in its history and yet we scored less goals than any other team in the country. You seem to think that Alves and Mido played for peanuts. I can assure you they didn't.

Turning now to the Viduka point. You kept on repeating his 'poor' stats as good evidence as to why Southgate was right to let him go. Those stats are fundamentally flawed, which is all I pointed out.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:36
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]like i said, your retrospectivly criticising the manager for the non performance on alves and mido, when it comes down to the attitude of the players, im sure you were quite happy when we signed them, the world of football is littered with signings who turn out XXXXXXe, even alex ferguson has many of these flops, yet because his margin of error is so massive, he gets away with it, southgate had a mission that dictated every single signing must be a success, and it doesn't work like that, liverpool turn over 10-15 players every year because in retrospect they turn out not good enough, but there manager is deemed skilled enough to hold employment at liverpool, and they have a lot of cash

i look forward to strachans first signings, and your opinion on the players, good , bad or XXXXXXe, and not an opinion on them in 2 years time when its easy to sit back behind a computer and pretend you knew all along

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:47
the eindhoven squad myth

So your point is that we shouldn't retrospectively criticise Southgate and that we shouldn't criticise his signings because every manager makes mistakes?

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:50
the eindhoven squad myth

Yeah, cos its pathetic, i thought you like to project an image of itelligence

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 15:51
the eindhoven squad myth

Something you clearly don't want to project.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 15:55
the eindhoven squad myth

i wouldnt even call a player who doesnt represent value for money a mistake anyway

there are far too many variables for a manager to control and understand in if a player performs well over the length of a contract or not

players are scouted, double scouted, researched etc, not to mention that southgate couldnt get anywhere near the quality of player he might have wanted due to the nature of the transfer market, every club in the world wants good players, clubs like boro have to take punts, like they did with emnes, hoyte, and digard, the same with mido and alves, we cant compete with massive teams on good players, the fact half of you take great pleasure cos emnes, hoyte and digard havent yet worked out is total hypocrisy and is based 100% on hindsight

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:05
the eindhoven squad myth

And as I said, I'm not getting into necessarily criticising individual players.

He got the wrong balance of squad and didn't even replace, never mind whether any replacements were adequate, players who left our team from an area that was already considered weak.

It was continuing again this season.

We were told over the summer that this season we wouldn't be as inexperienced as previously.

We lost a number of international players and Ross Turnbull and replaced them with a couple of 24 year olds and a reserve 'keeper. If you don't even try and bring in the type of players that the club say we should be getting, no wonder we are in the brown smelly stuff.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:09
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]yeah, maybe the expensive eperienced players either didnt want to come here, which is easily feesable, or we couldnt afford them, its stupid to suggest southgate didnt try, or the club didnt do what they could afford to try and improve the team

im sure some fans think the club and previous manager didnt try to bring in good players

i cant believe you mentioned turnbull captain, jeez, think about that one

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:13
the eindhoven squad myth

That applies to all managers though (except maybe Souness at NUFC [^]).

We have a very good system in the league table of judging how managers do. That, allied with subjective assessment is how all managers are compared.

He won't have the worse record of any manager sacked but why should he??

scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 16:17
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, they said that they were going to improve the overall experience of the squad and not get us in the same position that we were in the previous season.

Now maybe they they have failed to do that because they didn't have the money or maybe they just thought they'd be alright with what they had. But remember, if it is the former then Gibson knew the money situation and was the one promising changes. I think it is the latter and the fact we had been doing it for 2/3 seasons under Southgate already supports that.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:22
the eindhoven squad myth

i think southgate was using the arsenal model and he did for 2 years, which nobody can dispute was succesful with 12th and 13th finishes, young and fast, last season was a real struggle, and i think we tried to improve the squad in january, but its the same old story of teams not wanting to sell there best players, or wanting too much money

i think last season our overall play wasnt that bad, it was just our dreadful scoring record, ie, it goes back to the attitude of alves and mido

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:24
the eindhoven squad myth

I mentioned Turnbull because he left and was the only one without international experience and one of the incoming players was to specifically replace him.

Are you suggesting he didn't leave??

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:27
the eindhoven squad myth

I think he was trying to use the Arsenal model but found he can't do it without 2 resources that they have and we don't.

1. Money
2. Arsene Wenger

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:30
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]give wenger 30 million to spend on wages instead of the 110 they spent last year and we will see how good they are

as usual, a top 4 manager is lauded, when if it wasnt for the fact they were at a rich club they would fail

arsenal have youth players on 20k a week

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:38
the eindhoven squad myth

I don't necessarily disagree but I know that any big club wouldn't even trust Gareth with that sort of money.

As a percentage it's probably worth recognising that's a smaller percentage of their turnover than our wage bill as well.

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:41
the eindhoven squad myth

thing is, the managers of top 4 clubs usually prove themselve before they get there. they arent jsut plucked from the playing staff straight into management

scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 16:41
the eindhoven squad myth

That doesn't make sense, Dude.

You suggested he was using the 'Arsenal' model but have then gone on to say let's see how they do on £30 million per year wages.

Are you suggesting that Arsene Wenger is the same as Southgate but for the money?

And if so, what is the point in following the 'Arsenal model', given we have no money?

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:45
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]where did wenger prove himself, managing some daft jap 'soccer' team

wengers first three years as manager had a 28% win ratio, similiar to southgate and a similiar age( scarey i know)

thats that theory up in smoke

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:48
the eindhoven squad myth

i dont think theres anything wrong trying to mimick the arsenal blueprint

nobody was suggesting we could be as good as arsenal, but by following the blueprint, we could have a young, fast sqaud full of assets

thats what he tried to do, it didnt happen, but at least he tried, it didnt happen for wenger either in his first three years as manager at nancy fc

scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 16:50
the eindhoven squad myth

You haven't really explained how the arsenal model is a good one to follow when you seem to also dismiss their success on the basis of money they have which we haven't.

You really are saying that Gareth Southgate is as good as Arsene Wenger, aren't you?

All people do is compare people's stats with Wenger's or Ferguson's in their early years. Well if that's all you have to do then we should have a glut of managers up and down the country who are carbon copies of Wenger and Fergie.

Wenger progressed - 4th season in and Gareth was not learning.

captain5 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:51
the eindhoven squad myth

So is that 28% a good record or not??

You really are tying yourself up in knots here.

Remember that he managed and won the title with Monaco before going to Japan and that was only because Monaco's board wouldn't let him go for the Bayern Munich job, but then let him leave as soon as that job was filled (by Trapper Tony).

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:52
the eindhoven squad myth

dude,wenger did a good job at monaco

You are clearly jsut on a wind up and getting predictable

you cant really compare southgate with wenger. no similarities at all

bear66 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:55
the eindhoven squad myth

Other pundits have . . I would say rightly but it's all about opinions

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 16:55
the eindhoven squad myth

well, it was a route we had to go down, we could no longer financially sustain paying millions for players 30 years old with no sell on value, or be lumbered with players of 32,33 etc under long contracts earnings millions and either not playing or injured, parlour and mendieta 2 classic examples

the whole clubs philophosy changed into signing players who had sell on values further down the line

we were millions in debt, it would have been financial suicide to spend millions on players with no resale value

i'll tell you what southgate done, he got us relegated yes, not by himself

but his net spending over 3 years in deficit, every single member of the squad was saleable and young and we were a point off top, thats indesputable

bryan robson got us relegated, but he didnt get the same anomosity, i wonder why

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:56
the eindhoven squad myth

he got the arsenal model totally wrong, wenger stitched him up into buying aliadiere when we should have bought diara.

bear66 Posted on 23/11/2009 16:58
the eindhoven squad myth

we should have bought Fabregas . . but we should have the same owners as 8-1 drubbed Man City to do that

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 23/11/2009 17:01
the eindhoven squad myth

To be fair, in the time Southgate was Boro manager he won the same as Wenger did in the same period. Wenger had the Champions league to play for aswell.

Strachan has a squad good enough to win promotion. The squad is probably better than all but the first XI when all fit is not as good as Newcastles because they have a Midfield with the right balance of attacking and defensive qualities. The Midfield control the game, ours are too one paced.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 17:06
the eindhoven squad myth

southgate should have signed diarra instead of aliadiere?


do you have anymore pointless retrospective posts about players that have come good that we should have signed

fabregas, glen johnson etc

aliadiere was an amazing prospect from a young age and it wasn't the massive mistake people suggest considering his relative low transfer fee of 2 million, people always blame southgate in hindsight for signing aliadiere

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 23/11/2009 17:09
the eindhoven squad myth

'bryan robson got us relegated, but he didnt get the same anomosity, i wonder why'

Really? You can't see the difference?

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 17:09
the eindhoven squad myth

aliadiere "amazing" prospect, you do talk some crap! you are just on a wind up. alaidiere was crap whereever he went and his reputation was based on a league cup game against liverpool.

Diara went to pompey for 5.5m jan 2008. the exact player needed in midfield to replace the outgoing boateng and co. then he was sold for £20m to real madrid.

it doesnt matter if alaidiere cost 50p, he cant score goals and wasnt good enough. southgate showed far too much faith in him

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 23/11/2009 17:12
the eindhoven squad myth

What good would Diarra been playing half the season at Real?

sasboro1 Posted on 23/11/2009 17:15
the eindhoven squad myth

£15m profit in nearly 12 months or is it a trick question?

scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 17:20
the eindhoven squad myth

Aliadiere was a prospect at 15. Wenger has publicly said many time on how you can tell if players will make it by the time they are 19. We signed him when he was 24. It was clear at this point that he was never going to live up to that promise - and look what has happened!


erimus74 Posted on 23/11/2009 17:23
the eindhoven squad myth

We can go on forever with this issue, re Southgate has so much money to spend, had to sell to buy etc,etc,etc,blah,blah,blah

Southgate in his 1st & 2nd season was slowly dismantling/changing the playing staff at the Boro, the 3rd season, his words noone elses, was his team, his players, every player,keeper apart and the odd appearence from a few season pros, was his players.

We failed miserably in every part of the game, could never hold on to leads, how many goals did we conceded in the final 10 minutes, only once came from behind to win,the lowest scorers in the entire country and that is without all the bad records he managed to acheive in the relegation season.

Dude whtever way you dress it up the man was a complete disaster,he has set the club back 10 years and to back him is unbelievable when you consider that we will be in this division for a few seasons yet, well until strachan sorts out the mess he was left with

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 23/11/2009 17:25
the eindhoven squad myth

Why didn't we sign ronaldo for 12m and sell him for 80m? FFS Southgate was clueless.

Hercules Posted on 23/11/2009 18:01
the eindhoven squad myth

sas.

These stats are from the Deloitte Annual Football Finance Review 2009.

Wages don't determine league position. However they are a good indicator of what the league positions will be. Also, the link is much more prominent in the PL than the FL.

uwefuchs.

The part of my post which are facts are:

In Southgates second season we were the 16th highest wage spenders in the Premier League.

Then that summer the wages of Young, Schwarzer, Rochemback, Boateng, Mendieta and Cattermole were removed from the wage bill.

The wages of Hoyte, Digard and Emnes were added to the wage bill.

In a recent study evidence was presented to show that there is +90% correlation between league position and wage bill.

Adi.

What's this head above the parapet nonsense Hercules. I will always directly answer anything you might want to ask. You seem upset or annoyed that I hold a different view on things. I'm sorry about that but I can't change it.

You seem to disappear for 30 or 40 posts after I directed this post(16:07 Sunday) at you;

OK, you obviously know what the individual players wages were so tell me what the difference in wages of the players that came in and those that went out is. Let me guess, Emnes, Hoyte and Digard are on more than Young, Schwarzer, Boateng, Rochemback and Cattermole were on?

Then you reappear and ignore it.

Not upset or annoyed. I'd just like you to acknowledge the question and answer it with something to back it up.

A major re-structuring took place in March 2007 in terms of debt, shareholding and a number of other things.

According to Deloitte our net debt at the end of the 2007/8 season was £94m. The vast majority of which was largely in the form of bank borrowings.

The wage bill itself is irrelevant without comparison with other clubs. In 2007/8 season we were the 16th highest wage spenders. I realise I'm repeating this but you haven't acknowledged it yet;

Then that summer the wages of Young, Schwarzer, Rochemback, Boateng, Mendieta and Cattermole were removed from the wage bill.

The wages of Hoyte, Digard and Emnes were added to the wage bill.

In my opinion the wage bill would have dropped about £5m from 1 season to the next. You have told me I am wrong but offered no opinion of your own or evidence to contradict my opinion.

It is also my opinion that this would have put us in the 3 lowest wage spenders in the PL that season. Again, correct me (and at least try to prove it) if I'm wrong.

We have long since been towards the lower end of the Premiership wages league.

So Southgate overachieved in his first 2 seasons?

The only thing I said was inaccurate was the individual earnings of those players, which it is.

Proof?

We did not go down because of a lack of money. We went down because what money we did have was poorly invested by our manager.

The money was poorly invested. But no more so than at any other clubs. The difference is the other managers had a greter margin of error due to having more cash.

sas.

We should have signed Diarra??? What a ridiculous thing to say. We should have got George Best when he was 14 aswell. And Cantona before he went to Man U, he was a bargain. Every manager in the league probably wishes they signed Diarra when Pompey did.

Its easy to pick out players who have been signed and then went on to prove they are incredible players.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 18:23
the eindhoven squad myth

don't pay any attention to adi guess hercules and his comical assertions that he is either the clubs accountant or an agent seen as how he knows what all the players earn, he always dissapears when you ask valid intelligent questions



[rle] surely sas, using your logic, every manager is world football is as equally as XXXXXXe as southgate cos they never signed diarra either

including wenger who sold him for 5 million

idiot

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 18:24
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]scooby, are you taking the XXXXXX, wenger knows if a player will make it at 19, then proceeds to keep aliadiere for 5 years on top of that before selling him

talk about contradictions

scooby Posted on 23/11/2009 18:29
the eindhoven squad myth

Considering he barely made an impact during those years where they touted him out on-loan, you might say he was right. It was clear to me that Wenger was desperate to prove himself wrong with JA but he is XXXXXXing gash.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 18:32
the eindhoven squad myth

wenger loans out lots of young players, the fact he kept faith in aliadiere up until 24 is because he thought he had something in him, a fact you all dismiss, because deep down you can't argue with it because it contradicts the 'wenger great manager' doctrine

he isnt gash, he just isn't a regular goalscorer, even if he has scored as many as any of our other strikers this season

people make him out to be the worst player in the world, he played a full season right wing so im not suprised his didnt score many, even so he still scored more than downing on the other wing last year

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 18:34
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]what mess was that he left us in erimus, the youngest squad in the league, a minus trasnfer deficit over 3 years, the wage bill slashed in half, 1 point off top with the best away record in the league

yeh, he needs hanging

borolad259 Posted on 23/11/2009 18:58
the eindhoven squad myth

As said before, the key mistake last year was the signing of Alves. Putting all our eggs in one basket. It looked a good idea when Alves was 2nd highest goalscorer in Europe....it looked like folly about a year later.
I agree that the money could have been spent on two players who would have provided more goals. If we had done that, and scored perhaps 10 more goals at key points last season, we'd still be in the premiership now...gearing up for another lower half finish.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 19:15
the eindhoven squad myth

Dude, you're tying yourself up in knots here and making yourself look very silly. You talk about signing players for millions with no sell on value and I have to say that I'm not sure what re-sale value any of Southgate's signings might have now. I would doubt that any of them would bring in as much as they cost.

Hercules:

You seem to disappear for 30 or 40 posts after I directed this post(16:07 Sunday) at you;

OK, you obviously know what the individual players wages were so tell me what the difference in wages of the players that came in and those that went out is. Let me guess, Emnes, Hoyte and Digard are on more than Young, Schwarzer, Boateng, Rochemback and Cattermole were on?

So because I am away from the computer for a while you get upset? I can only apologise for having a life away from this board. Comparing the earnings of 3 players to 5 is hardly representative. You posted the earnings of several players without evidence. I am telling you they are wrong without evidence. What exactly is the difference? I am not going to tell you how I know, but I do. Whether you accept that or not is neither here nor there.

According to Deloitte our net debt at the end of the 2007/8 season was £94m. The vast majority of which was largely in the form of bank borrowings.

The figure is correct but the vast majority was owed to the club's parent company. Check the company accounts. I have.

The wage bill itself is irrelevant without comparison with other clubs. In 2007/8 season we were the 16th highest wage spenders. I realise I'm repeating this but you haven't acknowledged it yet;

I have acknowledged it. I have said that you need to also take into account transfer fees as part of the overall cost to the club and it is that where you see real evidence of mis-management on the part of Southgate.

Then that summer the wages of Young, Schwarzer, Rochemback, Boateng, Mendieta and Cattermole were removed from the wage bill.

The wages of Hoyte, Digard and Emnes were added to the wage bill.

Alves' keeps conveniently slipping through the cracks when you say this. I suppose it is easier to forget about his £14m transfer fee and huge salary. In any event, I am not disagreeing that the wage bill went down but it is fact that

In my opinion the wage bill would have dropped about £5m from 1 season to the next. You have told me I am wrong but offered no opinion of your own or evidence to contradict my opinion.

It is also my opinion that this would have put us in the 3 lowest wage spenders in the PL that season. Again, correct me (and at least try to prove it) if I'm wrong.

It's your opinion, without proof, so why do I have to prove my opinion? We may well have been in the bottom 3 of the wages league. I can't tell you what everyone else's budgets were. What I can say is that, in my opinion, when you take into account overall expenditure on players, we had more than a big enough budget to stay up and that, moreover, we had a squad capable of finishing 4th bottom. That we didn't was entirely down to the management team in place.

So Southgate overachieved in his first 2 seasons?

In Southgate's first two seasons we finished where I would expect us to finish. He slowly got worse as he dismantled the remnants of McClaren's side. When he ended up with his own team, he got relegated.

The only thing I said was inaccurate was the individual earnings of those players, which it is.

Proof?

I can't and won't tell you how I know, I just do. The point is though that you posted individual earnings information without any proof and yet expect me, when I challenge it, to prove it beyond any doubt.

The money was poorly invested. But no more so than at any other clubs. The difference is the other managers had a greter margin of error due to having more cash.

Again, this is just simply not true. He completely mis-managed the money he spent to the extent that barely any of his signings have proven to be a success. That's not just the acceptable rate of mistakes that all managers make, it was an absolute disaster and to argue otherwise is just ridiculous.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 19:17
the eindhoven squad myth

What's this transfer deficit nonsense?

erimus74 Posted on 23/11/2009 19:20
the eindhoven squad myth

[8]

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 19:26
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]as usual, adi just posts his subjective guess work and expects people to believe it because its long winded, whilst dismissing everybody elses opinions with childish remarks

all you have posted is your opinion, yet again adi, and tried to dress it up as the gospel according to adi_guess

i've already told you, your not in a position to guess anything, and i'd sell my soul in a wager that you would be 25 times as useless as a football manager than southgate ever was, its all retrospective tripe

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 20:05
the eindhoven squad myth

I haven't dismissed anyone else's opinion except yours Dude, largely because you barely make a coherent point. I have disagreed with many but of course that's what this board is all about.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me and nor do I care if they believe me. I post what I post and people take it or leave it. That's fair enough.

I agree with you that I have just posted my opinion. Of course I have. What do you want me to post? Someone else's opinion? It's not dressed up as anything other than an opinion. Just read my last post, the long winded one that you struggled to follow, I say repeatedly that it is my opinion. There are certain things that I do know to be true but if you don't believe me then just treat it as a guess. It is no better or worse than any of your such guesses.

I don't see why I am not in a position to guess anything but I suppose you can explain that to me.

I have never argued that I would be a good football manager. I wouldn't be. Presumably in your mind that means that I can't comment on the subject.

Peachy Posted on 23/11/2009 20:12
the eindhoven squad myth

the dude has come up with some good points here - smac managed with no thought whatsoever to the future, he got good players in the twilight of their careers into the club by offering them silly money.

In many ways southgate was left to pick up the pieces ( as far as wages go )he was sap set up to take the rap as bogey said in the maltese falcon.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:17
the eindhoven squad myth

not really, i was just highlighting the hypocracy that creeps itno your posts, you make a comment about posting what you feel and that its fair enough, strange then, when anybody else posts its because there in 'knots' or being incoherent, and you instantly dismiss there opinions and dream up an impossible knowledge of club finances, affirming you know for a fact what players got paid what

i'll reply with your own words

I don't expect anyone to agree with me and nor do I care if they believe me. I post what I post and people take it or leave it. That's fair enough.

[8D] abide

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 20:23
the eindhoven squad myth

I really can't see how you can argue he didn't manage for the future when he made experienced, Premiership players out of Downing, Johnson, Wheater, Hines, McMahon, Taylor, Morrison, Cattermole etc

He played more youngsters than any other Premiership manager during the same period. Add to that he signed younger players like Yak, Queudrue, Riggot, Poggy.

Southgate was left a good squad, much better than the one he inherited and took 3 years to dismantle it and get us relegated.

Adi_Dem Posted on 23/11/2009 20:26
the eindhoven squad myth

Not anyone else Dude, just you. You begin most posts with the rolling of the eyes, you insult me on a regular basis and ridicule my opinions. There is no hypocrisy, I respect everyone's view, just not yours because you haven't earned any respect.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 20:34
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]really, downing, wheater, taylor, hines, johnson all played more games under southgate than mclaren

so surely using your daft logic, he was more responsible for them being 'experienced' premiership players than mclaren, who maybe played wheater and johnson in 1 or 2 games

all of those players were made good players by dave parnaby and the clusb academy, not steve mclaren, especially when he played them all in one game and lost 7-0

bear66 Posted on 23/11/2009 20:42
the eindhoven squad myth

Anyone who can't see what's really happened in the last three years since the reality of the debacle of earning no money through the UEFA Cup and throwing away money by not getting guaranteed Premiership table position money that season is a bit soft between the ears

Hercules Posted on 23/11/2009 21:19
the eindhoven squad myth

So because I am away from the computer for a while you get upset?

See, now you're not even listening.

Comparing the earnings of 3 players to 5 is hardly representative.

For an accountant you don't seem very savvy numbers-wise. How don't you understand that to find the wage bill for 2008/9 you need to subtract the wages of those 6 players and add the wages of Digard, Marv and Hoyte to the wage bill for 2007/8. Alves is dicounted as he was already here and contributed to the wage bill for 2007/8. The other 6 months is made up of Woodgates wages(who I imagine was on a similar wage).

You posted the earnings of several players without evidence. I am telling you they are wrong without evidence. What exactly is the difference?

The difference is that I am not professing to know the actual wages. I am making it perfectly clear that it is my opinion and allowing you the opportunity to offer what your opinion might be or tell us the actual amounts.

You are telling me it is a fact that they are wrong. If you're going to present them as fact proof is needed.

On this point, could you at least tell me how much the wage bill did drop? It defintely dropped. There is no way in hell Digard, Hoyte and Emnes are on the same or more as Mendieta, Boateng, Rochemback, Cattermole, Young and Schwarzer.

I am not going to tell you how I know, but I do. Whether you accept that or not is neither here nor there.

The earth is flat. I can't tell you how I know, but I do. Pretty pointless talking about the topic then isn't it?

What I can say is that, in my opinion, when you take into account overall expenditure on players, we had more than a big enough budget to stay up and that, moreover, we had a squad capable of finishing 4th bottom. That we didn't was entirely down to the management team in place.

So at what point does a clubs financial position surpass the responsibility of the manager? Is it simply the managers fault unless he literally isn't provided with 11 players each week?

Again, this is just simply not true. He completely mis-managed the money he spent to the extent that barely any of his signings have proven to be a success. That's not just the acceptable rate of mistakes that all managers make, it was an absolute disaster and to argue otherwise is just ridiculous.

I agree he didn't spend 100% of the money available well. But how many of his signings can you say "(insert player name) went for the same amount, wanted the same wages, would have came here and he was better than what we got"? There is an argument that we simply got what we could afford. An argument which is not ridiculous at all.

The_Dude Posted on 23/11/2009 21:23
the eindhoven squad myth

[rle]oh dear adi guess, working out the clubs finances by deducting one transfer fee from another and guessing the wages they might be on

is it any wonder i start every post about you with rolling eyes