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Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:30
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

?

Just had a post removed. Why is suggesting religion is stupid somehow more sacred than saying Ravinelli was arrogant?

Why does religion get special treatment?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:30
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"This years school nativity play has Danny as Joseph (catholic)Sally as Mary (Jewish) and Babu, Guptor and Dhamo as the Thee Wise Men (Hindu, Hindu and Muslim)"

First off, why are they teaching kids this virgin birth nonsense? And secondly they are not Jewish, Muslim or any other superstitious nonsense, they are just kids who have no opinion of their own being brainwashed by utter twaddle into forming prejudice and contempt for others.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:32
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

GARETH SOUTHGATE WAS STUPID!!

Why not remove this post then?

Pathetic.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 12:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

IS religion the one with all the bombs?

MarlonD Posted on 04/11/2009 12:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

As a Catholic I forgive you, however you will find this isn't good enough to get you into heaven.

susy Posted on 04/11/2009 12:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Why are you so against religion? Even if you dont believe in it, Christian living is an honest and honorable and respectful way of living

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 12:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Stupid is as stupid does. For all the failthful be it following religion or atheism.

Buddy Posted on 04/11/2009 12:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

No particular argument with that susy, but if you start teaching it to kids at age 2 it can take them a long time to shake it off if they decide it's not for them.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 12:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Is religion the one that divides humanity into seperate waring factions?

Buddy Posted on 04/11/2009 12:38
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

No woking, you're thinking of football.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:40
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I am against religion in all forms because:

1. It inevitably forms predjudice
2. It is pure fantasy
3. The world does not need it to be a moral place
4. It has a status that is unquestioned which bestows it special treatment (removing my last post for instance)
5. It is a form of mental abuse on children akin to physical abuse
6. It is the root cause of many an avoidable conflict and is guilty of some of the largest humanitarian crimes in history
7. It is a tool for control and is utterly hypocritical
8. The Vatican is an abomination of wealth and power
9. It is the very essence of a weak mind being manipulated
10. Last but not least, there is not a shred of evidence to back any of it up since civilisation began

MarlonD Posted on 04/11/2009 12:42
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Thats it, I'm taking back any forgiveness you heathen.

May you and the rest of the smelly proddys burn in hell for eternity.

susy Posted on 04/11/2009 12:44
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I havnt got time to reply but will do later, some of your points I agree with others I dont

See you laters xx

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:45
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Marlon D

Ouch! I'M SOOOO SCARED!

Thankfully I have been able to completely shake free of the religious shackles placed on me in my childhood, so any threats from christians that I will burn in hell are about as effective as a self proclaimed 13 year old wizard casting a spell at me.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 12:46
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I am against religion in all forms because:

1. It inevitably forms predjudice
2. It is pure fantasy
3. The world does not need it to be a moral place
4. It has a status that is unquestioned which bestows it special treatment (removing my last post for instance)
5. It is a form of mental abuse on children akin to physical abuse
6. It is the root cause of many an avoidable conflict and is guilty of some of the largest humanitarian crimes in history
7. It is a tool for control and is utterly hypocritical
8. The Vatican is an abomination of wealth and power
9. It is the very essence of a weak mind being manipulated
10. Last but not least, there is not a shred of evidence to back any of it up since civilisation began


And 11. You want to restrict freedom of thought and force everyone to live by your codes.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:48
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Susy,

Hopefully by the time I am finished discussing this with you, you will have broken free from all the rubbish that has been placed in your head and be able to enjoy every day with the knowledge that the only 'miracle' that exists it the almost impossible chance that you ever existed at all.

scooby Posted on 04/11/2009 12:52
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"Why are you so against religion? Even if you dont believe in it, Christian living is an honest and honorable and respectful way of living"

There's nothing respectful about telling my 5 year old that there is a god and they have to pray to him each day.

boro_millwall Posted on 04/11/2009 12:55
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

it is because desmond tutu is robs uncle

MarlonD Posted on 04/11/2009 12:56
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Thats where the hair comes from [^]

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 12:56
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Here here Scooby!

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 12:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Yea the Catholic church has paid out over one billion dollars in America so far in court settlements for child abuse cases.

Religion is great!

[^]

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 13:02
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Bill Bailey made a good point in his Wembley show, which was televised last week: If the Universe began 13.7 billion years ago and the Earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago, then what was God doing for 9.2 billion years?

Actually, come to think of it, what has he been up to till about 10,000 yeras ago when Homo Sapiens started picking his nose with a bit of flint and wondering what it was all about?

scooby Posted on 04/11/2009 13:04
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Time flys when you don't exist.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 13:05
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

scooby - good point - well made


Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:06
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Adults should be able to sue curches for damages for the mental abuse infliced on them and the effect that has had on their adult lives. That would stop the rot.

Schools should only teach religion to make children aware of the absurdity of it. If there was an atheist school in the area, I would happily send my children there.

Never mind religious education. It is fruitless. There should be a class for common sense, scientific fact and morality.

And how on earth do catholic schools still get the right to turn perfectly good kids away just because they dont kneel and whisper once a day?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2009 13:09
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

we should be able to have freedom of speech on here.

i tried to highlight christmas and it's religious meanings on here a while back and just got abuse.

Because the people giving out the abuse know Rob nothing happens to them.

number9point5 Posted on 04/11/2009 13:10
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

is that time again already?

Yawn

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:11
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

We get bombarded with religious symbolism from year zero, but a recent advertising campaign by athiests in the USA was banned across the country. All they wanted to to was to place a slogan on city busses that read "There probably isn't a god. Enjoy your life."

How refreshing would that have been had it been allowed?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:12
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond..

Sorry mate, but could you clarify? From that post I have no idea which side of the fence you sit on.

The_same_as_before Posted on 04/11/2009 13:13
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

God created everything 10,000 years ago. He just made it all look older.

number9point5 Posted on 04/11/2009 13:14
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"There probably isn't a god. Enjoy your life."

Is that called hedging your bets then?

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 13:14
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Didn't that film about Darwin "Creation" have some problems getting out in the States as well, or was I dreaming that?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:15
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

JohnMC..

Are you a Nhilist? You seem to be knocking belief and disbelief in one sentence.

No problem with the 'I just dont know' crew. Just wish they would see the absurdity of it and commit to atheism.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 13:16
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Just because the current Pope was a member of the Hilter youth - this certainly does not in any way shape or form make a nonesense and mockery of this religion.

No sir, not one bit.

[^]

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2009 13:17
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Why is it that the atheists feel the need to come on here and behave as some kind of latter day Jesuits and convert the heathen to their way of thinking?

By the way agnosticism is the only rational viewpoint on the existence or otherwise of God.

The_same_as_before Posted on 04/11/2009 13:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Woking that is piiss poor, all young Germans had to be in it.

However this thread proves one religion works today: Catch 22

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

9.5

No it's not hedging your bets. The probability of there being a god is so small that it is not worth considering. You have the same chance of there being a magic pasta monster.

What it is saying is lets just get on with enjoying life and start being a bit sensible about this. You only get one chance.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 13:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I don't believe in a biblical God but if people want to believe in one (or any other deity) I'm behind their right to do so.

Freedom of thought.

two-banks-of -four? I agree entirely.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2009 13:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

i am not on either side, i dont believe a thread should be removed simply because it could cause provocation... thats how the best debates stand.

religion should be celebrated in this country because this country is supposed to be a religious country.. christmas being a good example of a religious festival celebrated in this country

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:20
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Woking - the Archbishop of Canterbury was probably in the scouts.

Your point exactly?

The_same_as_before Posted on 04/11/2009 13:20
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Archie baby, God was just too clever for you.

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 13:21
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

God created everything 10,000 years ago and made it look older.

To what end? Mysterious ways, indeed.

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:21
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

In answer to the original question. Because the only boring fcukers who constantly harp on about "Religion" are the evangelical atheists.

Just to have a look at some of those points

1. It inevitably forms predjudice - Not necessarily it doesn't, people use religion as an excuse for their prejudice, it's just a convenenient hook to hang it on.

2. It is pure fantasy - Is it? You BELIEVE it to be so, you cannot know for certain one way or the other


3. The world does not need it to be a moral place - I would say the world VERY MUCH needs to be a more moral. Take one of the big ten "Thou shalt not kill", there are no exemptions to that e.g. it's ok to kill non-believers

4. It has a status that is unquestioned which bestows it special treatment (removing my last post for instance) - it is frequently and tediously questioned on here. Didn't see the last post but I'm guessing it was abusive or divisive?

5. It is a form of mental abuse on children akin to physical abuse - In your opinion, for many it forms the basis for moral guidelines for children and a path to heaven/nirvana/whatever.

6. It is the root cause of many an avoidable conflict and is guilty of some of the largest humanitarian crimes in history - The major conflicts in history resulting in the greatest loss of life have been secular wars.

7. It is a tool for control and is utterly hypocritical - All forms of organisation are tools for control from Boy Scout groups to the KKK, at least religion SHOULD have at it's heart a moral purpose.

8. The Vatican is an abomination of wealth and power - given that JC himself said "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven", the vatican may indeed be on a sticky wicket with St. Peter

9. It is the very essence of a weak mind being manipulated - not sure what your point is here. Yes it is. Religion is only one of the things that will try to manipulate the weak, advertising and politics spring to mind as others.

10. Last but not least, there is not a shred of evidence to back any of it up since civilisation began. - there is more historical evidence for the existence of JC (just to pick one example) than there is for Alexander the Great.

11. You want to restrict freedom of thought and force everyone to live by your codes. - No, only fundamentalists seek to do this not all those of a Religious persuasion, most do indeed subscribe to the "live and let live" attitude to those of another faith that the Atheists on here struggle to accept.


Oh and Richard Dawkins will burn in hell [;)]

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:22
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

2by4

Agnostics are not rational. They say there might be, there might not be. 50/50 chance.

The chances of there being a man with a beard that sees and knows all, a woman with 6 arms or a speaking elephant are not 50/50. The chance of any of this is almost infinately small.

No, agnostism is not rational or a level headed attitude to religion.

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:22
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Mental abuse?

You're one weak willed mo'fo if getting dragged to church as a kid scars you mentally.

Grow a pair.

The_same_as_before Posted on 04/11/2009 13:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Jimmy, to give Darwin something to do.

Not_Smog Posted on 04/11/2009 13:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I'm with Archie on this one, i believe religion is the weight around humanity's neck and until we free ourselves from its outdated belief structure and practices then we will never be able to fulfill our potential.

I'm not saying it should be banned, everyone has a right to their own beliefs no matter crazy they may be i'm just saying that no one should have the right to impose their beliefs on other and especially not impressionable children.

MightyDuck Posted on 04/11/2009 13:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

if religion didnt exist, we would know who Jesus really was, the crusades would never have happened, Joan of Arc would still be alive and the twin towers would still be standing

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 13:24
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Mick [smi]

Joan of Arc would still be alive? Jesus! [:D]

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 13:29
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Actually Dawkins himself states in his much-discussed boook something like the only logical position to take is 99% atheist, 1% agnsotic, because absolute certainty is not a tenable position to hold. I could be wrong, mind. Only skimmed a few pages of it so far.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:29
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

In answer to the original question. Because the only boring fcukers who constantly harp on about "Religion" are the evangelical atheists.

Just to have a look at some of those points

1. It inevitably forms predjudice - YES IT DOES.. this may be human nature, but why provide and excuse?
2. It is pure fantasy - Is it? Yes it bleeding is pure fantasy, and those fantasies change depending on geography

3. The world does not need it to be a moral place - I would say the world VERY MUCH needs to be a more moral. No, it does not. Animals are moral without teh spoken word.

4. It has a status that is unquestioned which bestows it special treatment (removing my last post for instance) - My post was no more abusive than calling GS stupid.

5. It is a form of mental abuse on children akin to physical abuse - In your opinion. Not in my opinion. COME ON!

6. It is the root cause of many an avoidable conflict and is guilty of some of the largest humanitarian crimes in history - i USED THE WORD SOME.

7. It is a tool for control and is utterly hypocritical - There is little moral purpose in religion that cannot be conveyed in more effective ways.

8. The Vatican is an abomination of wealth and power - There is no heaven mate. Get a grip.

9. It is the very essence of a weak mind being manipulated - Yes politics and violence are other tools for manipulation, but I don't agree with that either. Why would I?

10. Last but not least, there is not a shred of evidence to back any of it up since civilisation began. - Catagorically nobody on earth has ever walked on water, split oceans or lived inside a big fish.

11. You want to restrict freedom of thought and force everyone to live by your codes. - No, only fundamentalists seek to do this not all those of a Religious persuasion, most do indeed subscribe to the "live and let live" attitude to those of another faith that the Atheists on here struggle to accept. WHY DO WE FORCE THIS INTO KIDS`???


Oh and Richard Dawkins will burn in hell

wee_daft_boris Posted on 04/11/2009 13:32
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

For the vast majority Christmas ceased to be a religious ceremony a long time ago. It's a huge capitalist splurge these days, either that or a 2 week long p!ss up.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2009 13:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Oh dear archie, 'agnostics are not rational'.

In my defence I will refer to Betram Russell who was considerably smarter than you and a little bit smarter than me.[;)]

"An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God.
The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there
is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds
either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the
existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so
improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed
from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards
the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and
the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.
An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case,
he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists."

So there if you have accepted, as you did previously that the is a small chance of the existence of god however tiny, you are an agnostic. Suggest you know hat you are on about before you come on here parading your ignorance.


Link: What is an Agnostic

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"Animals are moral without teh spoken word." [sic]

Animals are not moral and cannot be so.

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:34
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Too right - my mam's dog drags it's itchy arse across the carpet.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Muttley mate... honestly, I pity you. Brainwashed and manipulated into something that will sound as absurd in a couple of hundred years as Zeus and Odin do now. Let go of it! You seem like a sensible chap!

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:37
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

No. I say there is no after life. No guiding body. No reincarnation. No Karma. It is all quite obviously superstion. Agnostics are hedging their bets, which is irrational.

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:38
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Let go of what? You don't even know what I believe in. I haven't tried to convert you (to whatever it may be) I have simply shown that your argument is flawed. If you cannot see that then really you should do some more reading and try to improve your understanding of the world around you.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:39
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

MB

of course animals are moral! They form complex relationships with others, care for communities and have set patterns for living idential to our 'morals'.

Don't get you mate.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:41
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Muttley

None of my arguments are flawed. You didn't make a single valid response. I am very well read on this subject and don't need to read a single word more to realise that the whole religious debacle is clearly unfounded.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 13:41
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

It is all quite obviously superstion.

Says he who believes in certainties as much as the most vehement fundamentalist.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2009 13:43
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Archie you fruit loop.

You stated earlier

'The probability of there being a god is so small that it is not worth considering'

So there is a small possibility of there been a God. Therefore you are an agnostic and not an atheist. The fact that you didn't bother yourself to understand the terms you were using is not much of a surprise.

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:46
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

All of your points (bar one) I made valid arguments against. You represent the most dangerous sort of evangelical fundamentalist, you are not prepared to accept that others believe differently to you. I have not sought to ridicule your beliefs yet you have sought to pigeon hole me (quite incorrectly) and indoctrinate me in the "true path"!

Your way leads inevitably to discrimination and brainwashing as much as the Religions you rave against. And you refuse to see it. It would be funny if it wasn't a little pathetic.

Ban religion in the name of free thought... Eh?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:47
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

You are not getting me 2x4

There as a probability for any event happening. It doesnt mean it will. Since the probability of there being any type of god is as likely as the earth growing arms and throwing the moon into the sun I make the informed decision that there is no god.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:48
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

If there was free thought there would be no organised religion. There is no free thought in any religious society.

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:49
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Well done.

Other people think otherwise - leave em to it.

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:51
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"There is no free thought in any religious society."

Make your bleeding mind up.

Either

a) Britain is a religious society and you are venting your spleen so the above statement is bollox.
b) Britian isn't a religious society so what's your problem?

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 13:51
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

If there was free thought there would be no organised religion.

That is rubbish. People will decide for themselves if they believe or not. Human nature will then dictate that folk who hold similar beliefs will form into groups.

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:55
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"There is no free thought in any religious society"

Now you are trying to make trite observations to cover a lack of knowledge!

Perhaps you could explain the flowering of mathematics under Islam or the developement of Scientific Method in a Christian society or more recently the funding by the Vatican of a Radio Telescope in Arizona (IIRC)?

Look it's quite simple, Religion is not a bad thing, it's just a thing. Yes bad stuff has been done in the name of but generally that's just humans looking for an excuse. Banning religion is not some sort of universal panacea. Religion can be a force for peace as well as an excuse for war, a stimulus to greater understanding and not a barrier to learning.

People are good and people are evil and the things they create can be used for either, it doesn't make the thing good or evil, it's just a thing.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:55
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Mutley

I would much rather see a world where people are allowed to make their own minds up and not bullied into one sect or another. I will not apologise for this.

And why do people always want to challenge the credentials of those who make the only sensible choice there is to make by suggesting they are a little stipid, or not clever enough to see the whole truth?

If somebody as an adult wants to believe this cr@p so be it, I am all for freedom of thought, but don't sell it to my kids as morality or goodness or guilt. It's simply absurd.

Piggy Posted on 04/11/2009 13:56
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Time for another big flood I reckon.

mickbrown Posted on 04/11/2009 13:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

A rain's gonna fall.................

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2009 13:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

No archie you are missing the point.

An atheist by definition would say that there was not a god and not caveat the statement. If you don't know what you are on about concerning simple definitions, it is hard to take any of your other arguments seriously.

Muttley Posted on 04/11/2009 13:58
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"I would much rather see a world where people are allowed to make their own minds up and not bullied into one sect or another."

OK

"If somebody as an adult wants to believe this cr@p so be it"

Oh dear, and you were doing so well, right up until you got to the point where you tried to bully us into being Atheists. [:D]

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 13:59
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Any way. Nice talking with you guys.

I was hoping this wouldn't degenerate into name calling, and we (almost) managed to avoid that.

I make a point of sounding out the absurdity of religion at every opportunity because I firmly belive there is no place for it in our future and it is detremental to human development.

Gotta go, but thanks for the discussion.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 14:06
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly - Top post - well said that man.

Could not agree with you more

[^]

AyresomeJoy Posted on 04/11/2009 15:15
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I dont have any real aversion to religion (namely Christianity) but, this is my view.

Religion through its doctorate of sins against the bible/Koran etc...creates division within human beings. division causes conflict and conflict causes violence and violence causes wars.
My opinion is that : although a large majority of christians(for example) don't realise it - but their strong faith views causes the wars in the first place.

If we had live and let live values then a lot of wars wouldn't happen.

bear66 Posted on 04/11/2009 15:25
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"If we had live and let live values then a lot of wars wouldn't happen"

I'm sure the cavemen lived in harmony . . . . and this doctorate of sins sounds a good way forward . . .

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 15:32
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

The only religion the world needs is kindness


Fact

[^]

AyresomeJoy Posted on 04/11/2009 15:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Bear - can you explain yourself a bit better - cos i'm not sure what your trying to impart ?

bear66 Posted on 04/11/2009 15:44
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

before there was religion there was accrimony between people . . I think you meant doctrine as well

AyresomeJoy Posted on 04/11/2009 15:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

bear - i agree, there was accrimony between folk, but, you'd agree that religion has made it worse also - not better ?

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 15:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I think I'm finally getting where Muttley's coming from. That 13:55 post is spot on for me. [^]

Still, there's a distinct lack of listening from both sides. Like with most subjects, one party wants to cast the opposition as fundamentalist nutters and bigots whilst displaying these very facets themselves. Projection, Freud or someone called it. Not all religious people are like Wahabists. Not all agnostics/atheists are like Dawkins.

E-PRIME Posted on 04/11/2009 15:58
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Agnosticism for me- it's the only structure which allows you to change your model as and when further information comes to light. The only rational way forward for humanity.

There's plenty if spooky stuff happens to everyone. To classify it either as God on the one hand or delusional on the other hand is plain fercucking crackers.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 15:58
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Why do people who don`t believe in religon get so upset about people who do??
As for woking....He really has problems. Bless.

Ray_Von Posted on 04/11/2009 15:59
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I dont know what other people's experiences of religious education were like but because i went to a catholic school, my lessons were of a very narrow content. They were exclusively linked to the bible and other religions were not even discussed. I think that if at school we were taught about other religions and the various customs and cultures that derive from religions other than our own then we would be a more tolerant society.

scooby Posted on 04/11/2009 15:59
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Actually Jimmy, I'd like to be able to be an atheist in peace but I'd really like to know why my state funded school think it is fine to tell my very young child that he needs to pray to God.

rgarbutt Posted on 04/11/2009 16:01
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

So it seems you CAN "discuss religion on here"!!![cr]

toxic_bob Posted on 04/11/2009 16:06
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Scooby, I'd probably agree that there isn't a role for institutionalised religion in the UK any more. Schools would be better off run on the French model - you leave religion at the door.

However, kids aren't stupid, and I don't think anyone's ever been mentally damaged by the well-meaning waffle that passes for school assemblies these days. Most kids are bright enough to pay lip service to whatever and get on with making their own minds up about the world.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 16:07
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Who knows what history would have been like if there were no religion? Without the stability that religion provides we might well have seen more conficts breaking out throughout the centuries. Who knows?

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 16:10
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

It's a fair point, scooby. I dare say most of us had the same when we were at school. I had religion forced on me every day at boarding school for 7 years. My parents are right-wing Thatcher lovers. It didn't do me any harm. Wibble.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 16:22
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Regarding schooling. I did here something on the radio the other day that in most cases Parents want their shildren educated in a catholic school.

footyteam Posted on 04/11/2009 16:34
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

as much as i'm an atheist some points are absurd.

you can't blame religion for war, religion is a set of beliefs, people will always have beliefs. as another poster pointed out, people with beliefs form groups, its natural, conflict is natural and hence you get wars sometime.

I think people use religion just as an excuse.

if there was no religion the people that flew into the twin towers would only have made another excuse.

I know plenty of religious people who believe in evolution etc etc.

wokingmassive Posted on 04/11/2009 16:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I don't have any problems.

I only have difficulty stomaching these niave brain wash jobs who run around saying that religion is great and does a lot of good.

What they dont realise is that these silly religions only serve to divide humanity into seperate waring factions. Fact!

So infact not doing good at all - infact you could argue that religion does the opposite to good - that religion is bad.

That is my point. Religions only result is to constantly ensure that fighting takes place between differing factions. Is that a good thing then???

The world will be a better place when this silliness has long since been abandond. This day will come eventually.

[^]

Dibzzz Posted on 04/11/2009 17:05
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

There is no god, the more you think about it and research it, the more absurd and annoying the whole thing becomes.

We live, we die, like everythig else on this planet. Simple as that.

number9point5 Posted on 04/11/2009 17:10
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Back to the original question...

Perhaps because it gets done to death every other week everytime some self rightoeus little tit decides to cast judgement over something they know very little about in an atempt to get a ton.

Also because it turns into a "my insult is better than your insult" thread and frankly because it's boring.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 17:25
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

The principles of religion are quite rightly erroded year by year in civilised nations. What once was taken 'as gospel' becomes first something 'not to be taken literally', then, after a good while of people actually thinking about it, is dropped altogether.

For those of you not convinced for my earlier global arguments for abolishing religion, here are some less disputable views on a more personal level.

1. I don't like genital mutilation.
2. I don't like the mistreatment of women.
3. I dont like the removal of peoples freedom
4. I dont like church bells clanging outside my window at 9am on sunday mornings
5. I dont like double standars in legal matters
6. I dont like my daughter being refused entry to the best performing school in my area because i refuse to attend a antiquated ceremony once a week
7. I dont like my child being told she will burn forever for telling the odd fib
8. I dont like the spread of Aids through africa because of superstition
9. I dont like poor people being duped out of money by millionaire frauds
10. I dont like people holding on to lost relatives and lost hopes and being conned by attention seeking ego maniacs.
11. I dont like homophobia
12. Hymnes are utterly depressing
13. I dont like genocide
14. I don't believe in faries.
15. I'd like to be able to buy wine on a sunday.(I live in Norway)

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 17:43
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

9.5

Actually the original post was in protest of a previous post on the subject of religion being deleted when it was no more offensive than 70% of the posts on here.

But I thank you sincerely for your pointless insults and wish you well in the future.

boroarmyret Posted on 04/11/2009 17:44
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

what a sad & bitter person you sound.


Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 17:47
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Dibzzzzz....

Quite agree. Nice to see my bretherin on here youg'n.

Only been posting for 2 days and have managed to accumulate some quite astonishing insults for talking sense. It seems that the chosen ones are not above throwing a cyber slap or two.

Altogether now!

We are Christian soldiers, marching on to war, with the cross of Jesus... etc. etc. etc.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 17:52
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Boromat

Far from it mate. I am very happy in the knowledge that my existence on earth and all the wonder and beauty around us is the result of one amazing, mind boggling, staggering chain of events that should be enjoyed to the maximum with our single chance at experiencing it. I dont need to invent more than there is. I am bewildered and overjoyed by what we have.

boroarmyret Posted on 04/11/2009 17:54
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

why do you feel the need to come on here complaining, if you are so happy.

Humans are Homorelgious mate, if we have religion taken from us, we invent a God.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 18:00
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

It seems that people who don`t like religon are rather upset and angry about people who practice their own faith. Why?
I don`t come around your house on Christmas day and call you a hipocrite.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 18:01
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I think you can see by the thrust of my posts why I feel the urge to complain. And I dont agree. I don't think 21st century man would invent gods if they were removed, and even if they did, the resultant religion should not hold special privilages.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 18:03
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

woking. I started to read your latest rant and stopped after you used the word "fact"
God Bless you sir.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 18:05
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Dont get me started on Pagan rituals such as christmas day.

Given a choice in a non religious society I would still take a winter holiday and have joy in giving gifts to loved ones on a set date.

Christmas means absolutely nothing more to me.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 18:08
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

So you give gifts on Christmas day ?

mickymacc Posted on 04/11/2009 18:37
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

You can attack christianity and Judisam,but leave Allah alone,Rob does'nt want a fatwah against him,(I don't suppose he'd mind a fat bird)[:D][^]

mm40 Posted on 04/11/2009 18:49
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

to start a thread titled "catholics are idiots" is probably not the best way to get your point over and is considered offensive. None of us would expect to see a title called all muslims are idiots etc etc or any others faiths if you get my drift so perhaps show a little bit of respect.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 18:54
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Hang on a minute... the thread was catholics are idiots and so are all other religious beliefs.

The fact that a thread entitled Gareth Southgate is an idiot doesn't get banned and catholics are idiots did was exactly my point.

Why does religion get special treatment?

And whats more, I have zero respect for any religion so I cannot show any.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 18:57
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

And yes I give presents for christmas, but thathas nothing to do with christ. I give presents as do everybody else I know, none of whom are religious, so to drop out of it would make me feel tight, and besides giving gives me joy.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 19:15
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Look, to set the record straight. I do not think all catholics are idiots. Clearly that would be bigotted and idiotic in it's self. They are merely influnced by a very heavy hand at an age where fantasy is an everyday survival skill.

I wrote the initial post knowing that it would be erased in order to make a point. It was bound to offend, and for that I apologise.

Having said that, it is very hard to have any respect for a belief in people walking on water, gods with six arms, immaculate births, somehow surving death, being handed a multitude of virgins when your brain activity ends, being granted wishes by an all knowing super being, believing homosexuals are evil or something to do with not taking a fancy to your neighbours ox.

It all seems so fictional and pointless to me.

susy Posted on 04/11/2009 19:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Ive read most of the posts on here but got a bit bored.....

Basically is it religion or the church you have a problem with?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 19:24
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Both.

How can modern man soak up all that nonesense?

Getting a bit bored myself, and our lass needs impregnating. She can't do it all by herself... OR CAN SHE????

Good night all, and may your god go with you.

boroarmyret Posted on 04/11/2009 19:24
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

So when your five year is losing teeth you don't tell him/her about the tooth fairy, a pound under the pillow makes the pain a bit easier to take, or that Santa Claus brings presents, is it okay to tell them about fictitious characters as long as they are not religous.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 04/11/2009 19:29
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I wouldnt tell my kids any of that tosheither, and even if I did I would hope they don't still believe it by the time they had pubes.

boroarmyret Posted on 04/11/2009 19:32
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I'm so glad i'm not happy & contented like you-Bah Humbug

susy Posted on 04/11/2009 19:37
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Archie, you are reminding me of a girl I knew when I was in my early teens. She was a vegeterean and kept raming down my throat how evil people were who ate meat, aw look at the cute little animal, how could people kill them just to eat etc etc etc.

She wore leather shoes and a leather jacket but apparently that was different. Anyway, my point is this, I dont know of anyone on the board or in life that has ever gone on about their religous beliefs like the the non believers do.

The question I would like therefore to ask is WHY?

Ray_Von Posted on 04/11/2009 19:42
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

it looks to me like archie has been reading Dawkins. i recognise quite a lot of what he is saying on this thread from the god delusion.

number9point5 Posted on 04/11/2009 19:53
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"and our lass needs impregnating"

since when were ten year olds allowed to marry mate?

Old_Gregg Posted on 04/11/2009 20:18
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"15. I'd like to be able to buy wine on a sunday.(I live in Norway)"

Get yourself to church mate, last I heard they were dishing out free wine on a Sunday. Free bread too.

littlejimmy Posted on 04/11/2009 20:20
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Bread?! That stuff that sticks to the roof of your mouth? Wouldn't get much of a sandwich outa that, like!

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2009 20:54
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Right:

1. I don't like genital mutilation.
Female circumcision is a tribal practice, not a religious ritual and we know it dates from before the 2nd century BC.

2. I don't like the mistreatment of women.
I don't know where you're coming from here. Extremeists mistreat women and not just for religious reasons.

3. I dont like the removal of peoples freedom.
What? Like banning religion.

4. I dont like church bells clanging outside my window at 9am on sunday mornings.
Tough. I love the sound of bells on a Sunday.

5. I dont like double standars in legal matters
Neither do I. But I could quite easily say that I despised capitalism for the same reason...but I own a house.

6. I dont like my daughter being refused entry to the best performing school in my area because i refuse to attend a antiquated ceremony once a week.
Mebbys the school performs well because of the disciplines that religious ritual is centred upon? Mebbys? Yes?

7. I dont like my child being told she will burn forever for telling the odd fib.
I would suggest that anyone saying that to her should be brought to the attention of the police. I would also have a word with the local paper. Seriously.

8. I dont like the spread of Aids through africa because of superstition.
HIV is low in Africa where Catholicism has it's strongholds. You should examine Zimbabwe and Botswana where the real problems lie. Fancy going to Thailand to XXXXXX a girl in poverty? Guess that's alright and doesn't spread HIV one bit...no siree.

9. I dont like poor people being duped out of money by millionaire frauds.
Neither do I. This should be stopped whether it be a televangelist or Jamie Carragher.

10. I dont like people holding on to lost relatives and lost hopes and being conned by attention seeking ego maniacs.
Good God! Who are you to tell people how to grieve or how to hope? How arrogant.

11. I dont like homophobia.
Neither do I. Should be exposed in the church or out of it.

12. Hymnes are utterly depressing.
The 23rd Psalm is beautiful poety. It lifts my heart.

13. I dont like genocide.
Neither do I. Half the world is overweight and the other half starves. That's capitalism for you. The Money God.

14. I don't believe in faries.
Well neither do I. But I respect YOUR right to believe in whatever you want...

15. I'd like to be able to buy wine on a sunday.(I live in Norway)
Run for something. Change the world.

beattsmjk Posted on 04/11/2009 21:05
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Archie,

I'm a teapot agnostic [;)]

LeitrimBoro Posted on 04/11/2009 21:24
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

So, for a reason, other than christmas, you give presents on that particular day.
You can give presents on other days you know, to "give you joy", as you say.
You are not good on your non beliefs are you ?
Is that what your real problems are ?
Envious of others that have real beliefs and practice them, unlike yourself ?

Dibzzz Posted on 04/11/2009 22:52
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

It'll be all finished within 2,000 years, just a distant ancient belief that humans used to indulge in.

I'm suprised it's lasted for 2,000 years to be honest.

It only exists because Emperor Constantine spotted a gap in the market, Romans had a god for everything, to have all of the Roman Empire following one god made for a fantastic control and money making tool, so the whole concept of christianity is built on the complete chance that a clever bloke took a gamble a couple of thousand years ago.

Quite amazing how a decision by one man made in the distant past still holds true today.

But;

It's definatley losing it's pull on the younger generation, so it's doomed to fail eventually.









































Thank fcuk.

Old_Gregg Posted on 04/11/2009 23:01
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Dibzzz - your post is ill thought out in many ways. For starters you are going on as if Christianity is the world's only religion, which clearly isn't true.

You also claim that Christianity will die out as it is losing it's pull on the younger generation - well this only applies to Western Europe and America, in Africa, South America and China, Christianity is growing at a massive rate.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 06:14
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

*Female circumcision is a tribal practice, not a religious ritual and we know it dates from before the 2nd century BC.

What about male circumcision?

*Dont like the removal of peoples freedom.
What? Like banning religion.

No like the Amish or Muslim women.

*Mebbys the school performs well because of the disciplines that religious ritual is centred upon? Mebbys? Yes?

Absolutely not. I mean, seriously? Wow! That statement is truly astonishing.

*HIV is low in Africa where Catholicism has it's strongholds. You should examine Zimbabwe and Botswana where the real problems lie. Fancy going to Thailand to XXXXXX a girl in poverty? Guess that's alright and doesn't spread HIV one bit...no siree.

Dawing attention to other areas of the world where aids is a problem does not condone the behavior of the church in these matters.

*Good God! Who are you to tell people how to grieve or how to hope? How arrogant.

The church does this on a global scale every day.



Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 06:19
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

*it looks to me like archie has been reading Dawkins. i recognise quite a lot of what he is saying on this thread from the god delusion.

Yes I have read the god delusion, and agreed with most of it. I have also read the Rise and Fall of The Third Chimpanzee, Religulous, Darwins Theory of Evolution, The End of Faith, A Breif History of Time and the Bible (forced reading in school).

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 06:38
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

* Is that what your real problems are ?
Envious of others that have real beliefs and practice them, unlike yourself ?

No, my real problem is that a superstition that was dreamed up when the world was thought to be flat and gravity was a complete mystery somehow permiates into our society and seeps into every crevasse.

I am being taken to task on here for airing my veiws, and even being told that Atheists are out of order and too vocal in society when school books are full of this rubbish, the legal system reeks of it, television, hollywood, radio, ordinary literature is batterd by it, signs in the street, on billboards, busses, trains and taxi drivers mirrors are plastered with it. The queens speech, remembrance services, court proceedings, holidays are kidnapped by it. It's in my kids TV shows and Assembly services, it is used to incite violence and made the scape goat for profiteering.

Is it any wonder that people like me, and there are more of us than any other section of British society, are sick and tired of having this pile of twaddle forced down our throats and our childrens throats day in day out by an instutionalised minority?

I could repeat this post on every discussion site in the world and not even scratch the surface of the volume of force fed nonesense that ploughs its way through our cultures. I make no apology for my attitude, and can only hope that Atheisms voice is one day heard above the constant deafening drone of claptrap.


boroarmyret Posted on 05/11/2009 06:45
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

still sounding bitter and sad fella

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 06:46
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Old greg (love the name by the way [;)])

I don't think any right minded person would single out christianity for special concern. I mean, they are a peace loving even handed bunch aren't they? Ahem... moving swiftly on.

Christianity may be growing at a massive rate in developing countries, but that does not make it any more logical, relevant or sacred. It just means more people are being told what to think.

If you were born without religious influence of any kind, what would be the chances of you as an individual creating a god identical to that of the Bible? Come on! The whole thing is the stuff of fairy tales.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 06:58
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Susy,

I refer you to my previous post which covers most of your question, but to clarify.

Atheists as individuals, by virtue of the fact that they are free thinkers, have no instutionalised or organised body with which to make a case for sense. If we are vocal, then is it purely a by product of a perceptible sense of being drowned out by the rattle and hum of the global religion machine.

The very fabric on which all religion is based is inherently flawed. The free thinking man sees this, and nothing but this, and is driven to distraction by it.

Atheism is the one subject I am passionate about (apart form MFC). My veiws are reasoned and impartial and I have every right to express them.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:02
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

boroarmyret,

I am really enjoying this debate pal. Apart from you, people are generally giving the subject some thought and offering constructive arguments. If you are not enjoying this, then why not look elesewhere?



Link:

boroarmyret Posted on 05/11/2009 07:05
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

There is a lot of Hypocritical Christians who think that turning up at Church will suffice, but there is many more Hypocritical Atheists, Celebrating Xmas, getting married in church etc. If only there non-belief was strong enough for them to stand firm, no, what they do is come onto message boards and slag people who are strong enough stand up to there beliefs.
Don't try the Pagan ritual rubbish with xmas.I know that the Roman Catholic church compromised with the Goths & Pagans to mission Christianity, but in the Bible it does not say when Jesus was born so, Dec 25th has long been the chosen day,it is still a Christian Holiday, wether you like that or not


boroarmyret Posted on 05/11/2009 07:11
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

All Religion is Rubbish and full of fairy Tales, What you believe is correct. Yeh really constuctive

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:21
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

BM,

I have covered my veiw on christmas previously, so I wont repeat.

As for church weddings. Thankfully my wife is an atheist too, so I don't have to endure that. Most church weddings I have attended are down to the bride or groom having to appease a senior relative in some way. Again, religion forcing it's way on us.

I don't think I am slagging anybody off. I just think that people should look at their beliefs and question them. If they did this often enough the vast mojority would abondon them.

Look at praying. Starving people pray for food but don't get it. Is that because all the Portugese footballers and American Olympians have used all the wishes up?

It's just silly mate.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:22
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

bm

*All Religion is Rubbish and full of fairy Tales, What you believe is correct.

Great, you finally seem to be getting it. [:P]

boroarmyret Posted on 05/11/2009 07:30
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

When I mentioned Athiests, I was talking generally, not about you and your wifes beliefs, two things, you are taking things to personally or you think the world revolves aound you, I have said earlier, you sound bitter and sad meaning, you come across that way, not you are.Good luck with your beliefs mate, no problems with Athiests or religous people myself but I would never knock them, live and let live mate, I would also let my kids choose with a balanced view.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:34
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Look, I don't think all religion is evil.

When my daughter was born she became critiacally ill with Menigitis. An Americal freind of mine prayed daily for her recovery. I appreciated the sentiment as it showed caring, albeit in a very strange and alien way from my perspective.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that a respirator, some talented and dedicated medical staff and modern medicine saved my daughter. The praying had nothing to do with it, but it was quite sweet all the same.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 07:35
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

someone does a lot of talking to themselves on here, you should try praying instead... you never know you might get an answer

boroarmyret Posted on 05/11/2009 07:38
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Look at praying. Starving people pray for food but don't get it. Is that because all the Portugese footballers and American Olympians have used all the wishes up?

Obviously, from this statement you know nothing about the bible or Christianity, you must have read and not taken in,accorcing to religion God does not cause the bad things but human free will and Satan.

once again no constructive views just your own (ahem)or what you have read, freemind hahahahahaha

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:39
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

How can the concept of an all knowing ever present entity that puts a little x in a box when you are naughty which subsequently decides your destiny when your cranium dries up be a balanced view?

My kids will be told in no uncertain terms to completely ignore the above. That does not remove any of their freedom to think, it's simply common sense.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 07:41
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

if you are TELLING them to IGNORE something then you are NOT giving them FREEDOM to THINK.


r00fie Posted on 05/11/2009 07:41
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

For Christs Sake!!!![:(!][:D][cr][cr][cr]

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:43
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

BM,

Whoops, sorry! A little red man with horns who lives under the ground called Satan puts a tick in a box which ultimately decides your destiny. How silly of me to miss that.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:48
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond,

Telling somebody to ingore Genesis and read evolution is not removing their freedom to think. It's the same as telling them to forget the notion the earth is flat, or the combustion engine is not the way forwards or there are probably more inhabited planets than ours.

It is exactly the opposite of restraining free thought.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 07:52
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

you are NOT allowing your children on this issue to think freely and make their own judgement on it.

You could say, that IS one theory but HERE is another. Give them both sides and then let me decide.

br14 Posted on 05/11/2009 07:54
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"My views are reasoned and impartial and I have every right to express them."

Since you're clearly for Atheism and against religion, how can you be impartial? (And why would you want to be?)

Anyway, violence isn't the sole domain of the religious. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao - all pretty violent when it came to achieving their goals, and all atheists.

My view, obviously unreasoned and definitely not impartial, is that whatever we know to be true about our existence doesn't come close to explaining it.

The universe may be trillions of years old, and have started with a massive explosion, and life may have evolved by some incredible bio chemical wonder of gargantuan proportions. That still doesn't explain what kicked off the bang and what was there before.

My head hurts thinking about it so I'm happy to sit on the fence.


By way of postscript, I thought this wikipedia definition was interesting:

"A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to ... ultimate truth"

In which case, surely Atheism is a form of religion.


Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 07:58
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond,

One theory is logical and reasonable, the other is ludicrus. Why make the offer?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:00
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

because you are then allowing them FREE thought rather than dictating to them what is right and what is wrong.


Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:01
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

BR14

Thanks for the post, good question.

I suppose that my 'faith' that science will one day answer the big questions does to some smaller extent make my opinion a belief.

One thing is for sure though. Religion does not answer any of teh big questions adequately. God made the universe. Ok, who made God?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:08
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond,

I understand your perspective and thank you for the question.

If we maintained your stance throughout history large sections of society would still be licking the backs of frogs and screaming at the moon.

If poeple didn't drop the preposterous and follow logical thinking, Zeus would reign almighty and we would still be living in caves.

There comes a point where a theory is so unequivocally illogical that it has to be abandoned. Unfortunately religion always has the... "Ah... but you don't know for sure do you?" and the "What if your wrong" clauses which are so weak and yet so frustratingly binding for the delusioned.

br14 Posted on 05/11/2009 08:11
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

See that's where the traditional religions beat you hands down.

They'd just say God has always been and always will be, and is omnipotent, living outside of time and space.

So while you're chasing around looking for answers, they're sat back sitting smug not really needing any.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:13
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

BR14

Absolutely agree. Religion holds us back in many ways. American states voting to remove evolution from the curriculum is another fine example. Why do we put up with this?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:13
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

do you think that if you gave your kids both sides of the story they wouldnt realise, like you clearly do, which one is the correct one?

is that your worry?

but you are not arguing a case with your kids, like you said you are giving them the right to free thinking.

i feel sorry for them if you think free thinking is telling people what to do and what not to do rather than presenting them with both sides of the case and then allowing them to judge for themselves.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:17
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond,

One side of the case is so outlandish and unreasonable that it is a total waste of breath!

Besides, they will get enough religious bombardment to last a thousand lifetimes every time they turn on the TV or rent a Hollywood production. I want to let them know as early as possible not to waste any time on this.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:19
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

so you dont allow free thinking for your children on this subject?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

And besides, what do I tell them about religion? Where do I start? Which religions should I focus on? Which one is the most relevant? Which one speaks the most truth?

I do not have the cognitive capacity to adequately explain to anyone how insane religion is. I will tell them as much as I can about what science knows so far, and let CNN and Al Jazeera play out the rest for their bewilderment.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/11/2009 08:27
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Being aware of your own mortality is evolution's ultimate irony and the price we pay for our species mental development. This leads to us having to reconcile that concept alongside many other things that we dont understand (sun/moon/weather etc).

We created religion to try and explain things that we did not understand in order to come to terms with our own eventual death. Religion was then cornered by people in power who realised that it could be used to control the popultaion and get them to behave in certain ways.

Unfortunately we still haven't managed to shake it off, but I hope one day we will.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:31
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Telling children god might exist is no more assisting their free thought than telling them father christmas does.

God does not exist. Shiva does not exist. Allah, Ganesh, Samntabhadra, Odin, Thor, Krishna, Luna, Rama, Neptune, Re, Vulcan... the lot of them... Figments of mans glorious and fertile imagination.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Invader...

Here, here!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:33
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"My kids will be told in no uncertain terms to completely ignore the above."


thats where you chose to start.

i feel sorry for your kids.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:36
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Razmond,

Your pity is misplaced. Save it for the Amish wives.

number9point5 Posted on 05/11/2009 08:38
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

WoW looks like Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly has posted the tone himself...

Talking to yourself this much is just not normal!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:39
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

i pity them, because of your beliefs you decide to not allow them to express themselves with a freedom of thinking others can have.

sometimes people make decisions you do not agree with, that is life.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 08:47
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

In fact, save your pity for

The 'Jewish' kid waiting in the clinic to have part of his penis removed.

The African girl seeing her weeping reflection in the broken bottle that is about to sever her clitoris.

The terrified Catholic child laying in bed thinking what it feels like to burn for all eternity.

The greiving widow dropping a fiver into the collection plate of a self proclaimed 'Spiritualist' believing she has just spoken to her dead husband.

The murdered wife of a muslim man who was slain in an honour killing.

The homosexual child racked with guilt about his sinful feeling.

No Raz, I will not be condoning any of this.





north_east_invader Posted on 05/11/2009 08:48
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Unlike much religious schooling around the world, my children will be allowed to see all the evidence and make up their own mind.

I am completely confident that in seeing ALL the evidence which way they will decide, but it is their choice, not mine.

Making up your own mind is the only freedom that we really have.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/11/2009 08:50
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

you keep dictating what they can think about religion... this is how wars start.

i went to child and i dont recall any of that happening. The worse thing i saw in a church was at St Mary's in stockton and on St George's day someone had done a big shyte in the toilet that went everywhere. it was devastation!

anyways...

Dibzzz Posted on 05/11/2009 11:24
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Old_Gregg

You are completely missing the point, of course christianity isn't the only faith, it'll all be defunked in a couple of thousand years, all faiths.

I was simply using christinanity as an example, as that's the one I'm most familiar with.

As I reckon most people reading it would have sussed.

Dibzzz Posted on 05/11/2009 11:41
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Oh, and just to put the record straight, Atheism is not a belief.

There is no code to follow, no leader, no scripture, no dogma, no building to go to once a week, and on and on.

It's simply the non belief in religion.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:10
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

In fact, save your pity for

The 'Jewish' kid waiting in the clinic to have part of his penis removed.
The African girl seeing her weeping reflection in the broken bottle that is about to sever her clitoris.
The terrified Catholic child laying in bed thinking what it feels like to burn for all eternity.
The greiving widow dropping a fiver into the collection plate of a self proclaimed 'Spiritualist' believing she has just spoken to her dead husband.
The murdered wife of a muslim man who was slain in an honour killing.
The homosexual child racked with guilt about his sinful feeling.
No Raz, I will not be condoning any of this.

There are a whole mess of stereotypes there.

Circumcision is part of a Jewish religious ceremony, fair enough but as I said before (ignored by you) female circumcision is a cultural occurance which dates from before Islam or Christianity.

The catholic stereotypes are my favourite though. I have made offers many times in the past for anyone to respectfully visit my sister's church in York. You will be upset at the lack of burning going on. And any priest who advocates it will find a wall of strong willed people reporting the incident.

Honour killings are cultural and not part of Islamic faith.

I agree that homosexuals should not have guilt burdened upon them.


Rather than didmiss religion out of hand it is better I think to take each case on it's individual merits and praise or condemn as we see them. That way those who abuse power can be sanctioned and those who use their faith to give up holidays to dig wells/plant crops for the starving and care for the sick at Lourdes can be applauded.

Of course religion has usually been forcibly dragged into line with science and cultural norms but to dismiss all believers as mindless zombies is completely wrong.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:12
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

And for some people atheism is a belief. That's why we see the stupid among us having ceremonies to 'reverse' any baptism ritual which has scarred them so horribly.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 12:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Jon

It is not my intention to paint all believers as zombies. I just think if a right minded person actually stopped and took a moment to examine themselves as they kneel infront of a porcelain depiction and flap their arms around in a specific pattern reserved only for their sect, they would experience a true life changing revelation in a very real sense.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:30
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

But I know many right minded folk who have extremely rewarding careers, raised great kids and keep a loving home who HAVE thought about it and have decided that their faith in a God is relevant to their lives.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 12:40
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

And no doubt these people perpetuate the myth through their children.

It IS a myth Jon, COME ON you know it is, your children know it is... even the Pope knows it is. If I ever loose touch with the the belief that most religious people are simply in denial then I will loose all faith in humanity as well.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:47
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

No. My sisters eldest is very religious, her daughter rarely visits church and the youngest worships York City. My bro-in-law was agnostic but after much careful consideration decided to join the church.
Their church btw firmly feels that the present pontif does NOT represent them - but they love their church nevertheless...Catholicism is a very broad church.

Religious folk aren't in denial, sorry to shatter your faith but there it is. They've thought long and hard before coming to a conclusion.

WestStandGeorge Posted on 05/11/2009 12:48
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Before I start, I am an agnostic through informed choice, and I actually understand what it means. See Pascal's Gambit.

Since it is impossible to know what happened the instant before the Big Bang you cannot prove that there was no Creator. You either have to accept that the universe just exists or the Creator just exists. Somewhere along the line you have to accept a fact without evidence i.e. take it on faith [;)]

Belief in evolution is not inconsistent with there being a God - they could have set it going since we cannot prove what happened the instant before life first came into existence. You either have to accept that it just popped into existence from nowhere or that a creator just exists. Same difference.

A belief in a god does not mean you have to believe in an after-life. You can see belief in an after-life as a human conceit i.e. a response to the fear of death lacking any evidence, and still believe in a creator of the universe.

Every human society ever discovered had some form of spiritual belief.

Finally, 2000 years of European Civilisation was constructed on religion and led to the Enlightenment. We are throwing it away now and complaining about a sick society. Coincidence? Religion may be the opiate of the masses but without it some turn to other opiates

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 12:50
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Honestly, if religion was as simple and as gentle as the way you depict it in that post Jon, I would have absolutely no problem with it, but we both know it has a lot more to do with control and funding than any real effort to do good.

How can anybody have faith in anything that depends entirely on cultural influnce, geographical location at birth and historical placement?

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 12:54
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Jon,

They havn't thought long and hard, thay have been told long and hard since they were children.

If 20 isolated groups were asked to come up with 20 beliefs there would be 20 completely different ideals formed. How can you choose one belief above all others without a shred of proof for any of them?

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:56
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Control? [:D]
You haven't met my sister.

I agree the Catholic Church is far too wealthy at it's top but to say that it shows no real effort to do good is simply untrue. Catholicism is not The Pope, he is but a figurehead, Catholicism is the people who come together, united by a common belief.

You really should meet some of them in that church. Selfless people in the most part and I have no reason to believe that they're an isolated case.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 12:59
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I beg your pardon. My parents never forced religion onto any of us and I was never told what to believe. Not once. We were given an understanding of what was going on and were left free to choose what we wanted to do.

I left the church as a young teen and since then the church has never once interfered in my life, be it from an official or a member of my family.

MarlonD Posted on 05/11/2009 13:00
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I think the length of this thread contradicts the originators feet stamping, dummy throwing, original question.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:07
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

WSG,

Thanks for a well delivered post. I will respond if I may.

Catholicism is on the rise, as is Islam and that certainly isn't propagating world peace or increasing 'enlightenment'.

We categorically do not need a backbone of belief to express moral concern.

Many (not all) human societies have developed some form of belief system, yes, but that in no way draws me to it. In fact the truth that no two separate societies have ever developed the same system is one of the major contributors to my Atheist attitude.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:09
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Jon,

The church interferes with everybodies lives every day.

I see you are avoiding my more pressing questions and are just defending yourself.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:11
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Marlon,

Quite. [:I]

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 13:14
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

How does the church interfere with my life?

Not wanting to get into a slagging match - you have totally ignored my responses - namely female circumcision, which you still insist is the fault of religious types though you refuse to name them.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:15
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Ok gents,

Gotta dash. Stimulating chatting with you and thanks for your time and views.

No rest for the wicked. Baby sitting this afternoon.

Cheers.

TheBoy007 Posted on 05/11/2009 13:20
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

I haven't read the whole thread but my 6 year old son goes to a Catholic school, his mothers Catholic although not practising, he does occasionally attend church with his Grandma though. I'm an Atheist. At school he's taught christianity (obviously) but i do challenge the things he learns at school. Although its still very hard for him to take in i want him to have a balanced view. When he says he doesn't/does believe in God(it changes week to week!) I tell him he's not old enough to make that decision yet and he should just listen to what people have to say at the moment. Then when he's older he might be able to come to some sort of informed decision.
The one thing i really do object to is the fact that the school places pressure on him to be baptised. Me and my partner came to the decision not to baptise him and let him make that decision when he's about 16 and old enough to fully understand. I can't understand their eagerness and think that placeing any sort of pressure on a 6 year old is wrong.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:21
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Ok one last one Jon,

Switch on your TV, open a news paper, fill out an insurance form, take an oath in a court room, look at your calander, drive past a church, try watching the porn channel on a sunday (norway only perhaps).. shall I go on. It is a relentless tide of propoganda that permiates every nook and cranny of our society.

Thats how the church interferes with your life.

Archie_Stevens_Can_Fly Posted on 05/11/2009 13:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

007 liked the post mate. [^]

Really gotta dash now. The traffic is terrible at this time of day and my car doesn't levitate (yet).

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2009 13:23
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Specifics please. How does religion interfere with my life?

In a court room I can request a different book other than the bible on which to pledge my oath. No book is actually needed if requested - you just raise your hand and miss out the God bit.
In insurance forms the question of religion is simply for demographic purposes. Also Christians have lower accident rates (car insurance at least).

etc.

WestStandGeorge Posted on 05/11/2009 13:59
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"We categorically do not need a backbone of belief to express moral concern"

Disagree. The reality of human beings is that they only act morally towards others if they have to, through fear of the consequences.

Vulnerable people who show any weakness or fear are relentlessly attacked via ridicule and physical bullying. Once the weakness is identified others in the pack/mob pile in to reinforce it. It is called "manufacturing helplessness" and it is probably the defining characteristic of our species.

Sad but true [sad]

north_east_invader Posted on 05/11/2009 15:10
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

"Disagree. The reality of human beings is that they only act morally towards others if they have to, through fear of the consequences."

The reality of SOME human being is ...

I say that there are people who are perfectly capable of acting morally without needing something to force them into a set of behaviours. BHA may have one or two comments on that.




Link: God loves athiests ....

Dibzzz Posted on 06/11/2009 16:02
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

There's no such thing as a religious child, just religious parents.

wokingmassive Posted on 06/11/2009 16:03
Why can't i discuss religion on here?

Dibzzz - good point - very true - top post


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