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TeessideCleveland Posted on 27/09/2009 19:46
UK recession - Labour government's fault

[:o)]

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 27/09/2009 19:47
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Certainley was

rodders78 Posted on 27/09/2009 20:25
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Once some of the people on this board show they are brain dead and just take in what the right wing media say.

Tommy_Trinder Posted on 27/09/2009 20:35
UK recession - Labour government's fault

We were in for a recession of course, what with the credit crunch and all, but the Labour Luvvies government have made it 10x worse than it ought to have been.

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 27/09/2009 20:37
UK recession - Labour government's fault

you have gptta blame the 18 years of tory rule that ended 12 years ago! havent you?[:P]

Tommy_Trinder Posted on 27/09/2009 20:39
UK recession - Labour government's fault

[:D][:D]

FrozenHorse Posted on 27/09/2009 20:40
UK recession - Labour government's fault

I blame Southgate. The global recession's his fault too, as are poverty, disease and Geordies.[ref]

TeessideCleveland Posted on 27/09/2009 20:43
UK recession - Labour government's fault

TommyTrinder stop sticking up for them
The UK recession is TOTALLY the Labour government's fault

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 20:46
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"Once some of the people on this board show they are brain dead and just take in what the right wing media say."

I take it "again" is missing above.

Perhaps you're like my parents. They believe the current financial situation is all the fault of America, and in particular the Lehmans Brothers bank failure.

Wrong on both counts.

Lehman failed in September of last year, the Northern Rock was bailed out as early as February. Already banking deregulation implemented by Labour had resulted in the failure of a major UK lender.

For many countries the "recession" is simply the result of two large markets, the USA and the UK, being in the toilet, thereby depressing demand.

In Canada for example, despite having the USA next door as their largest economic partner by far, the recession has had a marginal affect on employment, and no banks had to be bailed out. We're technically out of recession this quarter.

The UK economy has been riding a wave of consumer credit and growing money supply ever since Labour came to power.

While home owners were getting ever larger mortgages and increasing their consumer spending when they sold their homes and realised a gain, wages have barely moved.

That means the ability to pay the average mortgage was diminishing every year, while the size of the average mortgage was rising. People had the illusion of affluence while actually just amassing every greater debt.

Eventually the inevitable collapse has occurred, as buying a home has become ever more difficut for first time buyers, despite government efforts to get them into massive debt and therefore the bottom fell our of the housing market.

I read somewhere that some UK lenders were lending 10 times a home buyers annual salary. A sure recipe for disaster. When I was a lad you couldn't get more than 2.5 times annual salary.

The truth is that under supply of homes, and low wages as a result of an ever increasing supply of labour has created a huge problem for the housing market, that has for so long been the engine room of UK consumer spending.

You may think the UK is moving out of the crisis, but I reckon you're in for a double bottom.

One things certain, Labour is guilty as charged.

High national debt levels; high unemployment; low wages; massive public spending; increasing taxes; the UK in fiscal turmoil; a currency in free fall. Classic signs of a Labour government that has been in power too long.

HolgateCorner Posted on 27/09/2009 20:55
UK recession - Labour government's fault

and here was me thinking it was the USA sub-prime mortgage shambles, Fannie May and co.

But thanks for putting me right that it was Labours fault after all.

You are talking bollo**s and what's more you Tories boys know you are as well.

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 21:03
UK recession - Labour government's fault

HolgateCorner. And why would the US subprime situation have anything to do with the UK?


thelodger Posted on 27/09/2009 21:23
UK recession - Labour government's fault

High national debt levels; high unemployment; low wages; massive public spending; increasing taxes; the UK in fiscal turmoil; a currency in free fall. Classic signs of a Labour government that has been in power too long.


You obviously don’t remember Thatchers or Majors government!
Which was “Before now” The highest ever records of national debit!
Had the highest pro-rata western worlds unemployed!
Had no national minimum wage, so don’t even mention low wages now!
No public spending, they give it all to the Rich, labour had to spend massively to catch up and fix the mess of our schools and hospitals.

The whole world is in Fiscal turmoil but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good argument!
Sorry, but no doubt you will be on here in 2 years time whinging and lying about the state of the country if you do manage to get Cameron in power next year.


Oooo Posted on 27/09/2009 21:25
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Pretty impressive if the UK labour government can cause a worldwide downturn!

blindschool Posted on 27/09/2009 21:26
UK recession - Labour government's fault

'And why would the US subprime situation have anything to do with the UK?'

That comment proves you know absolutely nothing about economics.

HolgateCorner Posted on 27/09/2009 21:26
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14 - have you heard of the global banking crisis?

the clue is in global.

banks trade on an international basis if you hadn't noticed, a toxic debt is a toxic debt in any country and most of them were rooted in the sub-prime companies in america.

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 21:29
UK recession - Labour government's fault

That's not what Labour inherited though.

They inherited an economy that was growing well with stable interest rates for the first time in decades.

They squandered that position.

Why would the US sub-prime fiasco have any impact on the UK?

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 21:30
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Ok. So the US banks didn't pay their debts to the UK banks then right?

Wrong.

British banks couldn't raise finance on international markets and so had a liquidity crisis.

In large measure because particularly under Labour the economy has been driven by an enormous rise in consumer debt.

Laboour could have done something about this but chose not to. Probably because they wanted to stay in power, and probably because they messed around with regulation so it could happen.

I don't really care who gets elected in the UK, none of the major parties will take the hard decisions necessary to move the UK from being a financial basket case to being an international force.

But one thing is certain, the UK cannot afford another four years of Labour rule. The country will end up needing to be bailed out by the IMF again.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 27/09/2009 22:26
UK recession - Labour government's fault

I'm sure those losing their jobs will not be thanking Labour for causing the UK recession

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 27/09/2009 22:29
UK recession - Labour government's fault

of course the tories would never promote laisefaire and deregulation.

[rle]

and again

[rle]

bear66 Posted on 27/09/2009 22:33
UK recession - Labour government's fault

A good government could have mitigated the circumstances. Lib Dem may have done that. We'd be much worse with the Tories who managed 3m unemployed without the worst world economic crisis ever

TheBoy007 Posted on 27/09/2009 22:39
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The thought of a Tory goverment sends shudders down my spine.

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 22:40
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The UK government is spending 500 billion on banks.

Thats 7,600 for every man woman and child in Britain.

So over the next few years, in addition to your normal day to day taxes, you'll have to pay in addition 7,600 plus interest of course.

Have you seen any of that money?

The government are claiming that if they hadn't of printed money and bailed out banks (for banks read corporations), the crisis would have been worse.

Really? But for whom? Something smells very badly.

HolgateCorner Posted on 27/09/2009 22:47
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14 - banks across the world trade investments with each other. Some of those investment arrangements were extremely complex and many of them eventually led back to the US sub-prime market which was in meltdown as people defaulted on mortgage payments.

Banks stopped lending to each other because they lost confidence in the quality of each others investments. They had so many toxic debts they did not know how much debt they were actually in or how much or how little their investments were worth.

That's what nearly brought the entire world banking system down and that's why governments across the world had to take over banks because they were no longer solvent and could no longer trade in investments which nobody knew the value of.

That's what caused the recesssion, not Labour or Gordon Brown.

It may not be how you would like it to be but that's what happened and the Tories get away with blaming Brown because alot of people don't understand the way banks work.

br14 Posted on 27/09/2009 22:55
UK recession - Labour government's fault

HC thats close but not specific enough.

It's true US financial institutions had a liquidity crisis and were unable to buy the mortgage backed securities from the UK they had done in the past.

But just because your bank won't lend you any more money doesn't make it the banks fault you got yourself in so much debt.

That's the problem. The UK should have had higher interest rates 5 years ago to compensate for the spiralling money supply.

Had interest rates risen gradually, the UK housing market would have slowed and consumer credit would have been limited.

That way when the banking crisis hit, interest rates could have been lowered, thereby releasing additional cash into the markets. As it was interest rates were already so low they couldnt go lower.

That interest rates were not gradually lifted back in 2003/4 is directly the responsibility of Gordon Brown.

Labour wanted to win an election and knew increasing interest rates would lose it for them.

The UK still has a massive proportion of the population with huge debts. Until those debts are driven down, the UKs economy will not recover fully.

Oooo Posted on 27/09/2009 22:58
UK recession - Labour government's fault

We had a recession under the last two tory goverments as well. At the time we were told it was not their fault but a global problem

Only_Me Posted on 28/09/2009 00:47
UK recession - Labour government's fault

It is a very complicated situation and yes the American sub prime mortgages, etc, did play a part in things here, however, there were many things Brown could have done with respect to regulation and or deregulation, in the past that would have meant that effects of the American situation would have been of little or no consequence here. Instead Brown, as chancellor, wanted to appear to be the man with the golden goose as far as public spending was concerned, which is all well and good when the money is there but when it started to run out and he started his raid on pensions, followed by all his other misdemeaners, then we were a certainty to hit the buffers at some point.
So for all Brown likes to throw around the phrases, " Global downturn" and " it all started in America". He is not being truthful.
The truth is, it might well have started in America but if he had acted in a responsible manner, then in all likelihood it would have ended there too.
So yes Labour is to blame for much of the problems we now face. Trillions in debt, that will take generations to pay back and still the likelihood of having to go cap in hand to the I.M.F. to beg for help.
The country is bankrupt and that is not an exaggeration, sadly.
Not of course that Brown is bothered, he will still have his gold plated pension to keep him in the life of luxury for the rest of his life.


zaphod Posted on 28/09/2009 04:23
UK recession - Labour government's fault

It really annoys me when bankers & regulators try to claim the problems were structural & unforeseeable and therefore not their fault.

Banks & financial institutions made high-risk investments (or in the case of Northern Rock had a high-risk business model) and the so-called regulators were asleep at the wheel. The fact that the toxic investments were mostly in the US is not that relevant; the investment decisions were made by the banks in UK & elsewhere and the regulators had a responsibility to assess the risks regardless of where the investments were. "Light touch" regulation (supported by both Labour & Tories) failed dismally. Banks with more risk averse strategies came through it relatively unscathed. Canadian & Australian banks (with one exception) and Standard Chartered have had only low levels of toxic debt. Canada & Australia have only had mild recessions.

Brown is responsible for the regulatory framework in the UK and its failure is his failure.

bear66 Posted on 28/09/2009 07:38
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The US allowing the collapse of Lehman was the real disaster which has put us in the red for the next generation.

As far as the recession, the Tory mentality of short termism is so deep in the business mentality that there has been no long term investment businesses since the '80s. When a recession hits, lay people off as there is no real business / industry to protect for the future.

Labour could have been a socialist government and attempted to reverse this trend . . . which they didn't so Blair and his Chancellor are also implicated

Fletch Posted on 28/09/2009 07:46
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Gibsons fault!

Gibson OUT...

Decent_Left Posted on 28/09/2009 07:49
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Brown is not responsible for the regulatory framework per se. He IS responsible for not ammending it as effectively as he should have done from what he inherited from the tories.

I've not read such a revisionist bunch of XXXXXXe about the last 12/13 years as that pumped out by BR in this thread.

Ok so Canada got away with it (do you live there btw as there is far too much "I read" & "I heard" in your entries regarding the UK) but, they have done so by avoidance of a structural over-reliance on the financial services sector.

"Only the US & the UK" is a crap argument.

Look at any nation with a sizable financial sector (or an overwhelming sector if you include Iceland), and you will find traumatic performances due to the global nature of the beast. The Swiss, Germans, French, Dutch and Spanish have all suffered dramatic decline due to the shock of this specific sector of the economy.

Britain had it bad, but it never suffered the massive low the German economy went through, a supposed paragon of economic virtue that country isn't it. XXXXXX, they were impacted worse and responded worse then Brown, and of course they appear to be coming out of recession qiuicker as they fell a hell of a lot further in the first place.

You free marketeers really make me sick. Cheerleading on unfettered global capitalism from the sidelines, as it pumps out its built on sand profits, then bleating for "the govt to do something" when it goes wrong. then whinging that governmental regualtion was weak. Its like kids in playground saying bigger boys made me do it. What a pile of fannies or tories as we say round here.

zaphod Posted on 28/09/2009 07:56
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"Brown is not responsible for the regulatory framework per se. He IS responsible for not ammending it as effectively as he should have done from what he inherited from the tories."

Or to put it another way: "Brown is responsible for the regulatory framework". FFS he's been in charge of it for 12 years, one way & another. The Tories created it, but that was a long time ago. Inertia is as much a fault as active XXXXXX-up.

Decent_Left Posted on 28/09/2009 08:02
UK recession - Labour government's fault

He would have been the only treasury minister anywhere in the world to have actually changed it in the way you seem to want him to have done so.

How about saying that due to the ammendments that he actually did carry out the UK was saved from the devastation that occurred to the financial markets in many other countries?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 08:11
UK recession - Labour government's fault

our councils investing money in icelantic banks.

That shown this country and government for what it really is.

We pay a high rate council tax governed by a system thats nearly 20 years old, and isnt fair nor just. Yet if we dont pay it we get sent to jail.

Yet what are some councils doing with our money? They are gambling it away, whilst our roads etc fall apart.

Mojo Posted on 28/09/2009 08:41
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Banks buying toxic American debt didn't exactly help either. Everyone says the system needs changing, the regulation etc etc but it was the human factor that brought it about ie greed and pig headedness.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 08:43
UK recession - Labour government's fault

people being allowed to be given a big bonus for doing nothing.

the governence is a total mess.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 08:55
UK recession - Labour government's fault

There's only one thing worse than a Tory spouting bollox in my opinion.

That's a Tory who's fecked off abroad spouting bollox.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 28/09/2009 08:59
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Labours' fault......[:D]

Labour had their part to play, mainly by looking the other way when banks raked in billions from short term investments, and were happy to see their cut of the banks profits.

More profits = more tax = more money into the public coffers.

Their big failure was their laissez-faire attitude to banking regulation and the way the whole banking / bonus system worked. A financial monster was created in London and New York, and even the governments of these countries were unable / unwilling to rain this monster in.

Big mistake. Now we are all suffering.

Global capitalism and the short term get very, very, very rich quick attitude caused the recession, which just so happened to be on Labours' watch.

If the governments had'nt bailed the banks out, the crisis would have been far worse for far longer.


zzzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 09:12
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The 'global' recession was fueled by sheer greed right across the banking sector.

Disgusting bonuses took any semblance of reason away from decision making and the lack of regulation meant that the pigs troughed till they were sick.

In the UK we are exposed to it more than the majority of other countrys coz we have no manufacturing base, it's all gone.

It all started with the Tories and New Labour have been no better. Apathetic.

We have nothing to fall back on, and our crown jewels, the Oil and Gas, is disapperaing fast as well.

We're fkd.

borobadge Posted on 28/09/2009 09:14
UK recession - government's fault

Dave, will be claiming responsibility for this superb 'indian summer' were having this year...[8D]

Labour havnt covered themselves in any glory this past few years, i'd have liked Brown to spend about 8% of what he has given to the (w)bankers and brought back in to public ownership, the rail, the gas, the water and the leccy, that way the govt can control prices for energy and travel as we go through the global recession and beyond..

but if you think theyre unilaterally(s.p.) to blame for the recession thats hit every country in europe, then you would do well to go back to reading janet and john books...

and....it would be 50% worse under the tories...they have a proven track record in it...house reposessions, unemployement doubling and collapse of business' in unprecedented scale.....

as with the football club, short memories some of you have....

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 09:18
UK recession - government's fault

'it would be 50% worse under the tories...they have a proven track record in it...house reposessions, unemployement doubling and collapse of business' in unprecedented scale.....'

david cameron and his shadown cabinet dont have a proven track record to be fair.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 09:21
UK recession - government's fault

David Cameron worked for Norman Lamont.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 09:22
UK recession - government's fault

'David Cameron worked for Norman Lamont. '

but he wasnt a decision maker then, to be fair.

borobadge Posted on 28/09/2009 09:24
UK recession - government's fault

like i said Raz...a short memory.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 09:27
UK recession - government's fault

you cant blame this young not innovative shadow cabinet for what went on in their party 20 yrs ago.

otherwise you could cherry pick the bad points from the history of any political party.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 09:42
UK recession - government's fault

"but he wasnt a decision maker then, to be fair."

True - but he was still a public school tosspot.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 09:46
UK recession - government's fault

like most of the Labour party.

zaphod Posted on 28/09/2009 09:51
UK recession - government's fault

zzzzz, it's completely untrue to say the UK has lost it's manufacturing base. Manufacturing makes up 23% of UK GDP, compared with USA 21%, France 24%, Japan 25%. Germany is higher with 30%, but that hasn't eased their pain.

In fact, I recently read in a report that the UK is at the higher tech end of manufacturing, which should stand us in good stead in future.

zzzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 09:53
UK recession - government's fault

Link please.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 09:54
UK recession - government's fault

51% of all stats are made up.

zaphod Posted on 28/09/2009 10:01
UK recession - government's fault

Too many links. Google UK economy wiki & so on. I just googled Holland & they have only 19%.

PIECHUCKER Posted on 28/09/2009 10:05
UK recession - Labour government's fault

What recession? Blair,that champion of the people, seems to be coping.[smi]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 10:06
UK recession - Labour government's fault

' wiki ' says it all really :o(

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 10:10
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"like most of the Labour party."

Labour 16%
LibDem 41%
Tory 68%


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 10:12
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Like i said - 51% of all stats are made up.

so basically

you hate them this much :

Labour 16%
LibDem 41%
Tory 68%

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 10:20
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"you hate them this much :

Labour 16%
LibDem 41%
Tory 68%"

Actually, that's not a bad way of putting it. And as good a way of choosing a party as any.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 10:22
UK recession - Labour government's fault

if i could split my vote it would look like this :

Labour 16%
LibDem 41%
Tory 68%"

p.s. i'm clearly an uneven voter and always give more than 100%

boro8686 Posted on 28/09/2009 10:22
UK recession - Labour government's fault

so instead of using facts and stats oyu make your mind up how raz?

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 10:22
UK recession - Labour government's fault

So you favour the public school tosspot scenario?

zzzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 11:15
UK recession - government's fault

Zaphod, we are second to no other EU Country in trade imbalance because we have lost our manufacturing base.

Stats from the OECD in US $billions

United States -854,8755349
United Kingdom -156,6867433
Spain -116,7366728
India -59,45082277
France -54,72753866
Turkey -53,4689497
Greece -44,26990473
Portugal-24,86255112
Italy -23,81398534
Poland -17,95052025
South Africa-13,25164544
Australia-13,12446184
Mexico -8,319234978
Iceland -5,886510677
Luxembourg-5,675463353
New Zealand-4,154569853
Hungary -2,212961
Slovak Republic -1,980337049
Austria -0,653844354
Czech Republic 2,492038261
Denmark 5,658456661
Switzerland7,236879849
Finland 7,63295041
Belgium 15,61528956
Korea 17,96547445
Sweden 19,01193714
Ireland 35,72432295
Indonesia35,77322037
Canada 41,22355365
Brazil 42,8477895
Netherlands43,74245391
Norway 54,08989178
Japan 79,60643071
Russian Federation155,9523559
China 180,431749
Germany 223,6952827

UK plc..... in the shyte.


Link: Click on the chart for trade in goods

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 11:17
UK recession - government's fault

i am more fact base than stat based

zzzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 11:27
UK recession - government's fault

OK Raz.

Look around you. How many factories do you see shutting down?

Hows our steel businesses doing? Car plants?Shipyards?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 11:30
UK recession - government's fault

i agree with you. Those are fact based stats.

I hate the random stats that the media tend to produce from an unknown source. Just like Mick has done.

i agree lots of businesses have shut and it will only get worse before it gets better.

And Labour no longer have a right to fix the problems they contributed heavily too.

bear66 Posted on 28/09/2009 11:36
UK recession - government's fault

"we are second to no other EU Country in trade imbalance because we have lost our manufacturing base"

This doesn't tie up as the manufacturing contribution to GDP is similar in most of the developed nations. All this suggests is we, as a country, have lived beyond our means. This increase in credit was never sustainable and should have been managed better by this government (although the trend started 20 years ago)

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 11:59
UK recession - government's fault

Raz - what you talking about random stats?

We know who the MPs are, we know what school they went to and we know if it's a public school or not.

Hardly manufactured random stats.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 12:07
UK recession - government's fault

i dont know all that information.

seems you read up on useless stuff more than i do and that create percentages from that.


mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 12:11
UK recession - government's fault

That is simple info in the public domain.

Big of research and bingo there it is.

You really think I could be arsed working it out myself? Feck that.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 12:13
UK recession - government's fault

so you dont know the accuracy of the stats.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 12:17
UK recession - government's fault

The link I found was for some book a bloke had written.

Pretty sure if he was publishing a book on the subject they'd be accurate.

Not like we're talking large numbers here is it? 646 MP's. Not beyond the wit of man to work out those stats in 3 or 4 hours work is it?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 12:22
UK recession - government's fault

even easier for him to make it up.

was the book published in 1974?

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 12:26
UK recession - government's fault

You telling me you are surprised by those stats then?

What would you expect?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 12:29
UK recession - government's fault

what year ws the book published? ... then i can tell you have valid i feel they are to the corresponding time

zzzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 12:29
UK recession - government's fault

Oh look.... manufacturing output the same.? and these are Govt stats....


Link: Big drop

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 12:33
UK recession - government's fault

shows that it could be years before we get anywhere near where we should be.

the more the government tax us, the less spendable monies we will have to have businesses grow.

They have helped the banks, but have not helped the people who count most; the tax payer.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 12:40
UK recession - government's fault

2001

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 12:52
UK recession - government's fault

Looks like that figure has changed as the old Etonian Cameron looks to engage with the 93% of the population who didn't go to private schools.

As of last year it was at 59% of Tory MP's who were privately educated.

Either way, they can still kiss my state educated nut brown ring.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 13:05
UK recession - government's fault

now more stats, where are these ones from?

was David Cameron in charge of the Tories in 2001?

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 13:14
UK recession - government's fault

"was David Cameron in charge of the Tories in 2001?"

Thought you'd know the answer to that.

Tortured_Mind Posted on 28/09/2009 13:16
UK recession - Labour government's fault




Link: #

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 13:16
UK recession - government's fault

so in reference to this current shadow cabinet you bring out stats in reference to the previous shadow cabinet.

well done.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 13:17
UK recession - government's fault

where did you get my picture from?

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 13:34
UK recession - government's fault

"As of last year it was at 59% of Tory MP's who were privately educated."

Raz - which bit of the above sentence didn't you understand?

I'm here to help.

E-PRIME Posted on 28/09/2009 13:36
UK recession - government's fault

In 10 or 15 years when it becomes easier to guard against this type of collapse due to the clearer understanding hindsight and experience afford BANG! Another unforseen set of circumstances conspire to bring about another near crisis or actual crisis which the politicians of the day will get it in the neck for.

The people wanting political casualties will be the same sort of ignorant, easily whipped into a frenzy b3ll3nds.

Economic crises are inevitable and cyclical and never for the same reasons twice.

Anyone looking at this apolitically would think Gordon Brown has done pretty effing well even if he is lacking charm etc.

The public at large shouldn't try and think about fiscal policy. They aren't educated enough. There's probably less than a hundred people in the world that are.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 13:38
UK recession - government's fault

mickbrown i'm talking about your original stats from 2001.

you've now changed your mind.

where are these stats from?

41% is certainly not a bad representative, by the tories.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 13:43
UK recession - government's fault

I've not changed my mind, I've found some more recent stats. They were from 2008.

41%? Who's that?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 13:46
UK recession - government's fault

you changed your mind because the discussion was about the current tory shadow cabinet and your brought out false stats that didnt equate to them.

41% is for tories that were educated like the normal bloke on the street.

And thats not a bad representation.

It shows that under Cameron they have looked to even the balance.

mickbrown Posted on 28/09/2009 13:49
UK recession - government's fault

Still way short of the 93% of the rest of us.

And addressing the balance? Are they? You think they really give a shít about anybody but themselves and their ilk?

You're in for a shock when they get in.

Only_Me Posted on 28/09/2009 14:23
UK recession - government's fault

So Mick, how many of todays present cabinet were privately educated?




Razmond_HWDR Posted on 28/09/2009 14:31
UK recession - government's fault

mick i think you are a little mental..

yes they have addressed the balance if your stats are to be believed.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 28/09/2009 19:36
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Tortured_Mind where did you get that picture of me? [:D]

Tortured_Mind Posted on 28/09/2009 19:48
UK recession - government's fault




Link: #

TeessideCleveland Posted on 28/09/2009 19:49
UK recession - government's fault

[^]

TeessideCleveland Posted on 28/09/2009 22:51
UK recession - Labour government's fault

'The problems with the public finances began during the years 2003 to 2007. The economy was growing at a robust rate but fiscal policy remained lax. The Treasury had far too rosy a view of the government's tax take, and ran up a sizeable structural budget deficit.

That meant that when the financial hurricane blew in, the public finances were in poor shape.'



Link: Labour government's fault

Dibzzz Posted on 28/09/2009 23:32
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Brown let it get out of hand when he was chancellor, Blair seen it coming and fcuked right off.

Yes a world recession, aggravated by Labour ineptness.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 28/09/2009 23:35
UK recession - Labour government's fault

UK recession caused by Labour's ineptness

Scrote Posted on 29/09/2009 01:45
UK recession - government's fault

e-prime - you have the problem spun 180 degrees

banking and finance are actually very simple concepts which almost everyone can understand when they have it explained to them

the problem is that firstly - we're constantly fed the lie that it's complicated and we should just let the clever people get on with it

and secondly - the people running the western world have conspired with (and as a part of) governments to aid and abet in the smoke and mirrors

regulatory rules, tax breaks, hedge-funds etc. are all just ways of trying to make what is essentially the conversion of 100% capital into 110% debt, look complicated

apolitical or not - gordon brown (and nu-labour as an entity) has kow-towed to the financial world whilst neglecting their historic responsibility to the working classes who have supported them

the biggest tragedy is that this recession gave them an easy (and popular) opportunity to begin a programme of re-nationalisation and they let it slip through their fingers for 30 more pieces of silver

br14 Posted on 29/09/2009 02:36
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"Ok so Canada got away with it (do you live there btw"

Got me Decent_Left. I was supposed to be returning to the UK this year but the falling currency has put paid to that idea. I wouldn't disagree with your comments about the structural over-reliance on the financial sector.

Your comments about Germany are a bit off base though. Of course Germany suffered. They manufacture more than Britain and manufacturing inventory was the first thing to be hit. But their GDP didn't fall much more than the UK and they're already out of recession with 1.3% growth this quarter.

And since you mention Germany, their balance of payments is $+179.4bn year to date compared with the UK's $-135.2bn. When you say "responded worse" I take it you mean they didn't waste as much taxpayer money on bailing out banks. Perhaps it wasn't necessary.

Iceland failed for precisely the same reasons the UK is in the mire - only worse.

I'm not by nature a Tory. I was born to good council housed working class stock. But I don't like the brand of corporatocratic socialism that Labour has invented and I can't understand why someone with the moniker Decent_Left is ready to defend them.

Britain has had years of consumer spending growth driven from increasing money supply as mortgage backed credit spiralled. This is entirely the result of Labour policies. The resulting crash and spending has led to a significant devaluation of the pound relative to the Euro, a massively increased PSBR, increasing taxes (as if they weren't high enough already) and I would guess considerable pressure on inflation once the corner is turned.

Given the fact the old Liberal party is no more (probably where I'd sit politically) even the Tories would be preferable right now. At least that particular brand of wolf doesn't wear sheeps clothing.

By the way, blaming "free markets" is a bit of a cop out. There is no such thing as a totally free market. All markets are driven by rules and legal frameworks agreed upon by governments. What nasty bankers do is exploit loop holes in those markets. The more holes, the more they exploit.

In a capitalist society it is the responsibility of government to provide the legal framework for those markets. It doesn't work that badly provided you follow the rules. Sadly governments find it hard to avoid political interference. I suppose it's hard to disagree with someone about to fund your election campaign.

See even Scrote agrees with me about Labour. I think he's spot on with the re-nationalisation as well. Though I'd probably have stuck to water and rail.

E-PRIME Posted on 29/09/2009 07:41
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Scrote-point taken to a degree.

I was just pointing out that googling GDP or whatever and claiming to be in the know is a bit farcical.

It is not possible to have a grip on all of the variables unless you are in a job that gives you access to all of the inside thinking. And then your likely to be in a position where what you say or do has a self fulfilling aspect to it so you'll never know whether you really had a good grip on it or whether your opinions or actions would have had the same effect from outside the bubble rather than inside.

E-PRIME Posted on 29/09/2009 08:03
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Also, us working classes that were supposedly betrayed also got wealthier in this last period due to house price rises and low non fuel based inflation.

The 7600 quid we all owe now is absorbable as our houses have all increased in value by far more.

Privatising profit and nationalising debt sticks in the throat a bit.

There is no way of making the good times go on forever. It's a utopian concept.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 29/09/2009 08:08
UK recession - Labour government's fault

anyone trying to get on the hosuing market in the last few years from a working class background will have found it very difficult because of these house price increases.

They should be relative in relation to what the average person earns, but they arent.

thanks labour!

E-PRIME Posted on 29/09/2009 08:32
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Raz that's bull.

You could have had a 110% mortgage over 35 years at many multiples of your income.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 29/09/2009 08:36
UK recession - Labour government's fault

we got a 100% mortgage for 25yrs 4 times our income, but our mortgage advisor could only find this from a really smaller company who had a bad reputation and that was to get a property for 88k.

it's a terrible system and in no way helps young working class families.

Yet at the sametime, if you have no job and a kid, you get it all paid for!

Thanks labour!

chorleyphil Posted on 29/09/2009 08:54
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The simple factis 'what goes up, must go down' (boom to bust)
Gordons biggest F up was saying it wouldnt happen.

However, I would rather Labour managed this recession than the Tories.

(and no, Labour didnt create this recession.)

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 29/09/2009 08:56
UK recession - Labour government's fault

i'm sorry but if you manage the 'boom' you shouldnt get any 'bust'

labour have contributed to this recsssion.

chorleyphil Posted on 29/09/2009 09:04
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Bull, this world recession was coming due to the banking collapse, due overexposure to sub-prime mortgages.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 29/09/2009 09:05
UK recession - Labour government's fault

again labour contributed to, as they are the government in power, and as they are now trying to do with banks, they have the capacity to govern all in this country.


chorleyphil Posted on 29/09/2009 09:16
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Every country has the same issues.
Companies, people, industry, cant get credit!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 29/09/2009 09:21
UK recession - Labour government's fault

or tyhey could get credit but that credit was unmanageable.

the government did nothing about the banks until it was too late.

number9point5 Posted on 29/09/2009 09:47
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Lets see...

They were/are in charge.

So

Yes

and as for rodders inane post...

"Once some of the people on this board show they are brain dead and just take in what the right wing media say"

I would replace it with..


Once some of the people on this board show they are brain dead and just take in what the left wing media say.

Idiot

TeessideCleveland Posted on 29/09/2009 23:30
UK recession - Labour government's fault

World recession?
Not happening in all countries
Labour government caused the UK recession

joebolton Posted on 29/09/2009 23:44
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"anyone trying to get on the hosuing market in the last few years from a working class background will have found it very difficult because of these house price increases."

The house price increases were fueled by people asking for, and banks giving out, mortgages at 100% plus and in excess of the standard income multiples.
The mortgage market should have been more vigourously policed from April 2002 once it became apparent a bubble was forming.

HolgateCorner Posted on 29/09/2009 23:56
UK recession - Labour government's fault

the tories banged on about a laissez faire free market economy being the only way forward for so long that the idiotic media believed it and if labour had not followed this policy they would have been crucified as old socialist and interventionist. Labour have managed the economy the way they have to leave the tories with no political manoeuvre and have been elected three times as a result.

Even now the Tories can't come up with anything tangible that Brown has done wrong so they just blame him for the global problems which have led us into massive debt on the basis that if you throw enough mud a proportion of the floating voters will believe them because they don't understand the economics.

The reality is that Brown has been unlucky with the US sub prime mortgage shambles and the Tories have got lucky.

SidSnot Posted on 30/09/2009 04:41
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Holgate - that's a stretch.

It's fair to say that timing is everything and Brown has been a lot unluckier than Blair as PM. However, Labour did make the fundamental mistake of running budget deficits at the top of the economic cycle. That's made the current situation far worse than it needed to be.

And Mick - what's the deal with Public School educated people? Did you get buggered as a kid or something....

br14 Posted on 30/09/2009 06:05
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"Brown has been unlucky with the US sub prime mortgage shambles"

1. Labour has presided over an unprecedented increase in home purchase costs. 30% per annum for 12 years.

2. The cause of the increase is a massive under supply of housing - public and private caused by a huge increase of 500% in immigration since 1997. You'd need to build a house every few minutes to meet the demand and Labour didn't.

3. The UK boom of the past few years was generated from cash liberated from home sales following the house price rises. Every time people bought a new house they used some of the cash from the sale of their old home to buy stuff and increased the amount of their mortgage. It certainly wasn't wage rises. UK wage inflation has been suppressed to cheaper immigrant labour. Admittedly there are one or two areas where this is not the case. But not that many.

In other words a consumer boom based on massively increasing credit. To the point where it was becoming infeasible to lend people more money.

4. The Thatcher monetarist solution to rising credit (i.e. money supply) is to increase interest rates.

But Labour didn't raise interest rates - in fact quite the opposite - because despite what you may think they're basically Keynesian economists - not Tories. (i.e. borrow and spend)

5. The result, a fragile economy with loads of people max'd out on their credit cards or mortgages with no room for manouvre. Plus loads of banks that had borrowed themselves into a hole to fund the dangerous mortgages they authorised with government blessing.

In all cases, both in terms of UK economic policy, housing policy, immigration policy, and financial regulations, the Labour party is responsible for the current malaise in the UK.

Even if there was no US sub-prime problem, by now the UK would have had a similar problem if not actually worse. Thats because the governments approach to getting people into housing (thereby continuing the consumer spending boom) was to get them to borrow more.

This is classic Keynesian economics but with a novel approach and the sad part is they're using fire to fight fire.

Had interest rates risen back in 2004 when the money supply rose dramatically the entire shambles could have been avoided. But would you have voted for Labour if your mortgage went up by 10-15%.

So Labour bought the fireworks, stuck them in a big pile, sorted out the blue touch paper and lit the match. Maybe the US set fire to the touch paper.

By the way, the Tories haven't got lucky. Whoever gets in at the next election probably won't last more than one term given the current mess.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/09/2009 07:42
UK recession - Labour government's fault

'The house price increases were fueled by people asking for, and banks giving out, mortgages at 100% plus and in excess of the standard income multiples.
The mortgage market should have been more vigourously policed from April 2002 once it became apparent a bubble was forming.'

Thats very true but it was up to the banks and the government to manage that better.

House price have gone up in value too much and the only way a working class family can afford a house is by overstretching themselves.

That should not be the case.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 30/09/2009 11:56
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The banks did what the Labour government allowed them to do

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/09/2009 11:59
UK recession - Labour government's fault

but they sound still bide within responsible governance with the scope they have been given

chorleyphil Posted on 30/09/2009 13:39
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Can I ask....what the phook is everyone upset about?

Its a global resession. A heavy one, but one that is about to come to an end!

So the country is in debt, well, please tell me when it wasnt?

1finny Posted on 30/09/2009 14:13
UK recession - Labour government's fault

One point is agreed.
failure to regulate banks and financial system was a huge (perhaps key)factor in UK.

There is also another certainty - the Tories would never have regulated the above.

The rest then is a question of degree - would the tories really have 'managed' the micro issues more effectively?
Perhaps - but, without regulation, the effect could have been minimal.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 30/09/2009 18:17
UK recession - Labour government's fault

What The Tories would or would not have done is not meaning Labour - who have been in power for 12 years and still have 8 months left - are not to blame

Scrote Posted on 30/09/2009 19:27
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14 - "2. The cause of the increase is a massive under supply of housing - public and private caused by a huge increase of 500% in immigration since 1997. You'd need to build a house every few minutes to meet the demand and Labour didn't."

utter jingoistic tosh - the lack of housing is due in far greater part to the baby-boomer generation buying up all the housing stock as buy-to-lets

whether as nest eggs or fluid investments, the 60 somethings are to blame for the lack of affordable housing - not immigrants

in fact it's not that long ago that you (or your ilk) were blaming the fact that immigrants were sleeping 15 to a bed for the lack of "jobs for british workers" 'cos they didn't have as many expenses

the sale of council housing and the proliferation of buy-to-let schemes (with the promise of massive returns) drove the housing market beyond the reach of first time buyers

the buy-to-lets are frozen money - there's no need to sell as long as tenants can be found and the rents go towards pensions/savings - the movement of cash declines whilst debt increases for those on the wrong side of the age barrier

one reason the 'elite' are looking at lower level inheritance tax is to free up property for them to buy up - no-one suddenly found a social conscience...

br14 Posted on 30/09/2009 21:34
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"Over 60's are responsible for the lack of affordable housing". Not the over 60's I know some of which have a hard time getting by.

Scrote you have no idea about my ilk. I have certainly never blamed "immigrants sleeping 15 to a bed" for anything.

I have absolutely no objection to managed immigration.

But the UK has had an increase in population over the past 12 years of 3 million with virtually no government management or preparation for that growth.

Whether rental or otherwise, public or private, home building needs to expand dramatically.

Only then will the thousands of people on council waiting lists (including many immigrants) find decent accomodation.

My guess is the reason this hasn't happened is that building new homes will lead to lower house prices. And when your economy is largely based in rising house prices that's a non-starter.

Surely a Labour government worth it's name would start a massive campaign of public housing construction. Especially now during a major recession when the economy needs a kick start.

Your arguments are self defeating. If baby boomers are buying to let, surely there wouldn't be a housing shortage since there'd be plenty of houses to let?

The simple fact is that if there is housing supply in excess of demand the price will fall - regardless of who is buying the houses, and regardless of whether council houses are being sold.

The only reason the buy to let option works at all is because renters have no satisfactory alternative as all levels of government (by way of house building permits etc) have ensured demand exceeds supply by a considerable margin.

Wheater_Walks_On_Water Posted on 30/09/2009 22:10
UK recession - Labour government's fault

30 Sep 2009

FTSE 100 records its best ever quarterly gain


Leading shares lost ground today but still turned in their best ever quarterly performance.

Growing optimism about economic recovery as well as the return of corporate activity - such as Kraft's bid for Cadbury - have lifted the FTSE 100 by 21% since the start of July. This compares with a 14.9% quarterly rise in 1999 at the height of the dotcom boom, and a gain of 14.3% ahead of the October 1987 crash. Joshua Raymond, market strategist at City Index, said:

It's been a terrific quarterly performance and this has bred confidence that the markets have turned a significant corner. The gains have been led by stronger company earnings and an economic picture that continues to show signs that the worst may now be over. As a result, investor appetite for risk has been high with strong demand for the heavyweight financials and miners.


As I've said quite a few times on here lately

Gordon Brown has lead us out of recession a full 2 years before Cameron predicted. He is fuming with his financial advisers who have got it so wrong.

Yes that is the Cameron who has openly admitted that he would have stood by and done nothing to get us out of recession, which would have meant millions more jobless.

Lamb said that Middlesbrough will get the club it deserves.

Tory supporters, you will get the country you deserve.

Craggsy Posted on 30/09/2009 22:14
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Margaret Thatcher is the only truly great British leader. She really did put the Great back into Britain.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 30/09/2009 22:49
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Yep, we had the greateast number of redundancies the country has ever known.

HolgateCorner Posted on 30/09/2009 23:57
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The debt level is very high because of the credit crunch made in the USA. I'm not sure how many times that has to be said by various people on here before it sinks in, the Tory boys can't go on foever denying history.

Labour got accused of interfering with the free market in the past by the tories and now they've let the market run its course they have been accused of not stepping in to tell people how to live their lives and the banks not to lend them money to satisfy aspirations of working people to actually buy their own homes.

Quite frankly if somebody has worked hard to buy a house and wanted to borrow against the equity in their house to fund a lifestyle then I think that is their choice, it's their money they can do what they want with it.

You Tory boys seem confused to hell about the whole thing.

Boronana Posted on 01/10/2009 00:08
UK recession - Labour government's fault

How is this capitalist slump the fault of new labour when they are only being dutiful servants of capitalism.What is your alternative to this inept government conservatism,fascism?Capitalism has destroyed football as a sporting competition.The checkbook rules.The days of Brian Clough are long gone, when a man and his assistant Peter Taylor could take a floundering second division team to win the old first division title on a very limited budget, and repeat the same feat with Notts Forrest,and win the European cup twice.This is an imposibility now in the modern era where the cheque book rules,ie capitalism.Bless you Brian Clough a true Boro lad.

SidSnot Posted on 01/10/2009 00:30
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The debt level is very high because of the credit crunch made in the USA.

How long... tory boys... blah blah.

Holgate - that is true, but also somewhat misleading. It's true that the recession and the bank bailout have resulted in a significant increase in the PSBR. However, it was far too high before this and will be far too high after. "According to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, even when the recession is over and the output gap has been closed, there will still be an annual deficit of around £140bn. This is not cyclical; it’s structural." You can't blame the credit crunch for that - it's simply overspending. It's like you and I basing our budgets and spending on income inflated by a bonus, which is never likely to occur.



Wheater_Walks_On_Water Posted on 01/10/2009 00:39
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Isn’t it funny how Cameron dismissed Gordon Browns lowering of VAT as being insignificant and a publicity gimmick.

But now he is predicting that raising VAT back to its original level will cause another recession.

The man is a joke AND his eyes are much too close together.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scrote Posted on 01/10/2009 00:49
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14 - "But the UK has had an increase in population over the past 12 years of 3 million with virtually no government management or preparation for that growth."

what percentage of that growth is due to immigration?

house building isn't the answer because lack of housing isn't the problem

the problem is stagnated money from the older demographic and massive debt from the younger demographic (both in terms of student debt and 'normal' living expenses)

if every non-populated house was released to the market at cost price then the recession would be over in an instant - greed and a lack of social conscience are the driving forces behind the world's current financial problems

immigration, knife crime, swine flu etc are all just a part of the big lie that is designed to make you worry enough about the nonsense to take any interest in the obvious

Wheater_Walks_On_Water Posted on 01/10/2009 00:56
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Gordon Brown halves Camerons lead in the polls in just 5 days


Link: Brown on the way back

BURWELL_BORO Posted on 01/10/2009 00:59
UK recession - Labour government's fault

YAWN [V]

zaphod Posted on 01/10/2009 03:41
UK recession - Labour government's fault

I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Brown caused the global recession, as it obviously had its roots in US toxic debt & the ensuing banking crisis, which caused the credit crunch. However, the issue is whether Nu Labour's policies made it worse in the UK. IMHO they clearly did, as countries with better regulated banks like Australia & Canada have only had mild recessions & small amounts of irrecoverable debt. In addition, the UK's national debt has ballooned more than almost every other country's (obviously better than Iceland, though!), because of the enormous scale of UK banks' blunders. As I've previously stated, Brown reacted well to the crisis & saved the UK from complete financial meltdown, but it was Labour's policies that got us into the mess in the first place. Not that I believe the Tories would have done any different, mind.

Regarding the opinion polls, parties usually get a boost during their conferences & then lose momentum. It's the Tories' conference next. There is good poll analysis on the attached website.


Link: UK Polling Report

Erimusred Posted on 01/10/2009 05:46
UK recession - Labour government's fault

It was an accident waiting to happen!

Once you give the lunatics the keys to the asylum and invite them to run the place what else would be the conclusion?

The sad thing with the whole affair is that as usual Joe Blow suffers and Big Man has to buy a smaller condo in Dubai with the rest of the rats instead of the Virgin Islands.

Politicians?

Do you really think any of them give a small rodents poo-hole regardless of ideology?

Answers on a postcard to ErimusRed c/o Beach shack, Virgin islands!

br14 Posted on 01/10/2009 08:15
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"what percentage of that growth is due to immigration?"

All of it. Approximately 300k net per year since 1997. It was around 40-50k per year prior (for several decades). Stats are available from the government statistics office.

"if every non-populated house was released to the market at cost price then the recession would be over in an instant"

Whether or not non-populated housing is an issue isn't really the point though it could be a factor in the current mess.

The housing market is like any other. It's based on supply and demand. You don't get 30% year on year increases for 12 years if there is enough supply.

House prices have stabilised recently because there's limited demand since prices have reached the point where first time buyers are priced out of the market.

The fact is that there simply isn't enough available housing to stablise prices.

The worry will be what happens if interest rates rise (which I'd have though was inevitable after "quantative easing" on the scale undertaken).

There's a lot of fuss about bankers commissions etc, but the truth is that lending is regulated by governments. Banks can't just magic money out of thin air without have the Bank of Englands or government regulators consent. Nor can they trade financial instruments that are not legal.

Both in the US and the UK, the governments are deflecting blame with some success by shifting it to financial institutions.

Scrote Posted on 01/10/2009 10:12
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"The fact is that there simply isn't enough available housing to stablise prices."

again that's just a random generalisation that bears no relation to observable fact

there are huge numbers of houses on the market - the problems are due to location and cost - with the latter translating to personal greed due to promised wealth from the housing market

house sales are restricted far more by the availability of mortgages at the moment - it's another artificial barrier to growth that has nothing to do with the number of houses on the market or immigration

"Banks can't just magic money out of thin air without have the Bank of Englands or government regulators consent" - yes they can - they have just decided to give control of the nations finances to private banking institutions - they could take that control back today if they wanted to and go on a money printing splurge to rival zimbabwe (not that that would help, but they could do it if they wanted to)

zaphod Posted on 01/10/2009 10:12
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14, it's true that immigration has caused a lot of the population growth, with, for example, about 1 million Poles arriving a few years ago, but this wasn't the case in 2008. Only about a quarter of the population growth in 2008 was due to immigration, with three quarters due to natural growth. The UK's fertility rate has been increasing for some years now, with births outnumbering deaths.

I agree we need to slow down immigration, though, now that the economy can't absorb so many.

number9point5 Posted on 01/10/2009 10:32
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Still yes even after all these responses.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 01/10/2009 18:59
UK recession - Labour government's fault

'I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Brown caused the global recession'


Brown is leader of the Labour government that TOTALLY caused the UK recession

HolgateCorner Posted on 01/10/2009 22:22
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Teesside Cleveland - stop embarrassing yourself, you sound like the Sun newspaper.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 01/10/2009 23:58
UK recession - Labour government's fault

I think you'll find The Sun is a bit more sensationalist!
And their support for The Tories has been coming as theior political correspondent wanted them to support the Toreies in 2005 and Wade introduced Murdoch to Cameron in the hope of persuading him to go Tory


Anyway - the UK Labour-caused recsssion...

TeessideCleveland Posted on 02/10/2009 00:13
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Actually I think I sound more like The Guardian who say Labour should ditch the Brown stuff and that the conference this week did nothing to stop their inevitable massacre next year
In fact some say Labour may never rule again as Cameron's 10 per cent seats cut will hit Labour hardest , boundary changes will hit Labour hardest , Scottish independence will become more likely
under the Tories and will hit Labour hardest


Sorry I'm going off track
The UK recession is the Labour government's fault - totally

br14 Posted on 02/10/2009 00:26
UK recession - Labour government's fault

"there are huge numbers of houses on the market - the problems are due to location and cost - with the latter translating to personal greed due to promised wealth from the housing market"

It isn't just about property ownership. There are parts of Britain where families have been unable to obtain suitable rental accomodation for years. (According to the media at any rate)

Markets simply aren't "free" as is implied by the media. The housing market is restricted and controlled, as you imply, by greedy or desperate sellers who don't want to sell, by lenders who lend too much or not at all, and by estate agents and builders who in the 12 years of sellers markets have pushed prices up and up generally by telling people complete bullXXXXXX about the market.

But fundamentally if property is available for sale and noone buys the price will fall. As it has done recently.

The problem isn't now though. The previous 12 years were when the supply problems existed. Unless you have some other explanation as to why prices rose at 30% a year for so long.

You're making exactly the same mistake made by Gordon Brown. You seem to believe house prices can rise at 30% a year forever and destroy the boom and bust cycle in the UK. They can't and didn't.

During the same period salaries hardly rose at all in relative terms. I assume the rise in house prices occurred because lower interest rates meant that people could afford to borrow much more.

Back in the early 90's mortgage rates were around 14%. A house costing say 80k back in 1994 would have cost you 250k in 2007. Your mortgage would have been more or less the same due to interest rate reductions.

Imagine what would happen to the UKs economy if rates were at that level now. And yet according to some economists, interest rates should have been at more like 10% back in 2004 when M4 money supply was rising at 14%.

I would argue that the current crisis owes more to a failure to control the money supply than any bankers greed.

My point remains the same, if there was sufficient **available** low cost housing on the market, lower income earners could afford to get into the market and the whole thing kicks off again.

Your point on mortgages is well made. Mortgages are restricted because lenders are tightening their lending rules (i.e. moderating money supply) and now suddenly an entire class of people that two years ago could get a mortgage now cannot.

You actually reinforced my point on banks by the way. As I understand it, banks generate money by lending more than they have deposits to cover. But the rules concerning monetary growth in this manner are defined by government.

And as you say, if the government has given power to the financial institutions then they of course the banks control the game. But it is the governments to give, and their reponsibility if it goes pear shaped.

By the way they already did go on a printing splurge like Zimbabwe. They apparently think it will help.

zaphod - I take your point on the population growth. I suppose if people can't find work they might as well make babies and get more benefits [;)]

Scrote Posted on 02/10/2009 01:20
UK recession - Labour government's fault

br14 - "The problem isn't now though. The previous 12 years were when the supply problems existed. Unless you have some other explanation as to why prices rose at 30% a year for so long."

prices rose because people were convinced that that was what they should do - people generally are idiots when it comes to thinking about large scale problems and they are also generally greedy when money is involved

these traits are well understood by bankers and politicians (and newspapers) - people bought evermore expensive housing because they were worried they were missing the boat - the price rises were artificial - they had little to do with a lack of supply anywhere outside the South-East - and people unable to afford to live there should have been encouraged to live elsewhere

"You're making exactly the same mistake made by Gordon Brown. You seem to believe house prices can rise at 30% a year forever and destroy the boom and bust cycle in the UK. They can't and didn't."

i've never once suggested house prices can (or even should) rise at any rate per year forever - in fact i've continually argued against the increasing allowances made by mortgage lenders in terms of loan-to-value on mortgages (and for a lot longer than the start of the current crisis)

house prices should be naturally tied to wages and multi-home ownership should come with a plethora of conditions (including higher taxation for unnocupied houses - enough to make it cheaper to sell)

"if there was sufficient **available** low cost housing on the market"

you've added the 'low cost' clause - i still don't think availability is or ever was an issue - however more low cost housing without strict limitations on possible buyers would have just led to more houses snapped up by buy-to-letters - it's a nonsense to argue otherwise given that we have the evidence of the last few years available

more generally - the blame for the economic problems lies squarely at the feet of the people who overstretched themselves - if they aren't willing to take some of the responsibility then they shouldn't ever be allowed access to credit facilities again - including mortgages

it's no good blaming the bankers or the politicians when you went out and splashed the cash with no thought as to how to pay it off

zaphod Posted on 02/10/2009 03:54
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Scrote, although the people who borrowed irresponsibly should carry some of the blame, many ordinary people in this country are financially incompetent and relied on the bankers & other financial experts to lead them. In apportioning blame, the guilt must primarily fall on the experts, not on the incompetent.

The low paid have got to live somewhere. The UK failed to build enough council housing & thought private renting was the way forward. It clearly wasn't.

SidSnot Posted on 02/10/2009 06:37
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Zaphod - agree with most of what you say generally, but can't agree with this one.

If you take the argument that people should be "protected" from exercising free will and choice, then we're going down a worrying road. What's next - IQ of above 130 to vote? No spending more than 20 quid a night in a pub? Young lads having cars that go 60mph maximum.

There are some people who need to be protected, but that needs to be a very, very small group not half the population.

zaphod Posted on 02/10/2009 06:47
UK recession - Labour government's fault

I'm not saying they should be protected. I'm saying the experts deserve more blame than the borrowers do.

SidSnot Posted on 02/10/2009 06:49
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The experts should take a lot of blame. I agree with that. They acted unethically, immorally and unprofessionally and have escaped scot free. They should have been regulated better of course and people should also have had more sense.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 02/10/2009 09:42
UK recession - Labour government's fault

The markets not free though, it’s dead. A result of Tory and especially Labour following the wise words of Alan Greenspan.

The biggest owners of property at the moment are the banks themselves. Property prices stabilised (commercial and private) because they’re keeping the unsold inventory off the books, hidden away. That immediately stops any sort of mark down in price. If a free market existed it would mean the banks would go bust. Same thing with the lack of repossessions, the banks are reluctant to do it as again it would lead to a mark down in price.

The whole thing is a stage-managed circus.

Bootlebarth Posted on 02/10/2009 10:28
UK recession - Labour government's fault

No wonder old Etonian and Bullingham club (sod the oicks movement) is likely to be stuffing you lot soon. Wake up do some research don't be led by the nose with glib sound bites. We are in a hole for a variety or reasons no doubt including a component due to the odious Millibrands (shudder) but those new Tories will make it ten times worse. Have you forgotten what Thatcherism did for the North East, you had better fasten your safety belts for the next onslaught. Forget Steel Making forget Chemical production there will be plenty of shoes to polish whilst you grow your forlocks.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 02/10/2009 21:35
UK recession - Labour government's fault

Labour have been in power for 12 years so they've had 12 years to regulate on things they are now saying caused the recession
So the Labour government is to blame

kazza Posted on 02/10/2009 21:36
UK recession - Labour government's fault

no pub tonight TC

TeessideCleveland Posted on 02/10/2009 21:40
UK recession - Labour government's fault

My mates were coming over from Boro to Stockton but the driver had his car smashed by a stolen car yesterday morning so we had to give it a miss

TeessideCleveland Posted on 04/10/2009 00:53
UK recession - Labour government's fault

8 months today (Sat 3rd) is the last day they can hold an election
The voters will then - rightly - kick the Labour government who caused the UK recession out of office